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PAL speed up

Discussion in 'Movie Forum' started by Gary D, Aug 14, 2003.

  1. Gary D

    Gary D
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    i've noticed of late that more and more people are noticing PAL speed up - are you people Borg or terminator units or something? do you have eyes and ears better than the rest of us?

    Can one of you Borg types justify your claims of noticable PAL speed up? or is this just a case of lemmings jumping in?


    seriously, this is not a dig at anyone i just want to know.


    Gary
     
  2. NicolasB

    NicolasB
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    What usually causes more problems is if they ill-advisedly try and use some form of electronic pitch correction to counter the effect of the speed-up on the audio. This tends to result in drop-outs and various other audio artefacts that are much more annoying than the original pitch-shift would have been.
     
  3. Dave H

    Dave H
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    ?
     
  4. SeaneyC

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    4% is pretty noticable with a side by side comparison, but i'd find it very difficult to notice if i was just watching something with nothing to compare it to. Can't say it bothers me at all.
     
  5. figrin_dan

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    I've been importing since '91 (The 1st being T2 on laserdisc) and so up until recently have been used to NTSC. When I bought the R2 dvd I could immediately hear John Conner's voice sounding Whinier.

    I've known about speedup for years but it's never bothered me, but when so many people mention it, you do start to listen out for it.

    I have ordered the R1 Indiana Jones set and will probably find the music too slow.

    I also have a cd player with a speed adjustment and music starts to sound bad at about 8%. 4 is ok.
     
  6. Spoonman2

    Spoonman2
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    I didn`t used to think about it, then I swapped my region 2 Jackie brown, for my mates Jackie brown region 2, as I have progressive scan, but only in ntsc.

    Well!! Sam Jacksons voice was much different to me(Mickey Mouse :), must be because he has such a low pitch voice, noticed the same with Pulp fiction, then the list got bigger, and bigger.

    now I spot the difference on the music more. Blade 2, I watched at a friends house, he has the region 2, and I have region 1.
    I noticed it was a higher pitch almost straight away.He said I was talking crap, so I took the disc round, and did a comparison.... then he could tell the difference if I put a disc in without telling him what region it was.

    Now I have noticed, I dont buy anything on pal, which to be honest is sad :(

    Spoony.
     
  7. TheBigApple

    TheBigApple
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    I don't think it is a case of lemmings jump in. More of a case that once you know about it, it becomes more noticeable.

    But as figrin_dan has already stated it is usually bought to your attention when you watch a PAL version of a film that you have seen loads of times on NTSC.
     
  8. Squirrel God

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    Never noticed it on films. Ever.

    Always notice it with music I'm familiar with though, especially if I'm trying to play along with me guitar ;)

    Couldn't agree more.
     
  9. FoxyMulder

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    Wellllllllll on the advice of a certain squirrel i bought region 2 Armageddon boyyyyyy big mistake i sold it for half the money it cost me to buy it was 384kbs Dolby as opposed to the non-anamorphic Criterion editions 448kbs Dolby, the region 1 version had better sound and i noticed it immediately.

    was this because of 4% speedup or was it because of the lower bitrate, i don't know i don't care, i won't buy region 2 again.
     
  10. Squirrel God

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    Don't blame me. I only gave you the facts :lesson: :rotfl:

    And it was the lower bitrate for sure anyway - there are very few DVDs that are pitch-corrected (FOTR is an exception) and Armageddon certainly isn't ;)

    How will you cope with all the recent Region 1 releases not having DTS, but DTS on the Region 2? :D
     
  11. kevb

    kevb
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    Ahh Didums.:laugh:
     
  12. Mr Cheese

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    My cheapest of the cheapest (£50) Dansai 1010 DVD player, from Tesco, has pitch correction. It works remarkably well. Clueless how it does it though.

    The remote simply has two buttons, one has the symbol for 'flat' the other has the symbol for 'sharp'. I suspect it changes the speed of the disc slightly.
     
  13. wilber

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    According to Wilber Jr - an authority on music & things related to recording, a 4% change in frequency in playback of music will be unnoticable to the vast majority of us, apart from in a direct a/b test. There are a minority who have perfect pitch, who will be able to spot the difference. I have ntsc & pal versions of 12 Monkeys & I just played a couple of snippets, guess what, I couldn't judge that one was pitched higher than the other.
     
  14. Duncan Harvey

    Duncan Harvey
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    I cant say I've compared a film in PAL to a film in NTSC, as I generally dont have anything twice so to speak. But having watched Buffy seasons 1-3 in NTSC, when we switched to PAL for season 4 onwards my wife and I heard immediate differences in the sound, especially Xander. Similarly having always watched DS9 on VHS, Sisko sounded like Barry White when I watched the R1 DVDS.

    My eyes seem immune to pull down, but my ears acutely notice speed up - so I always try to get films in R1, and US TV shows from R1 as well. The Buffys are an exception because I simply dont believe the messages being given out about the inferiority of the 16x9 pictures versus the 4:3
     
  15. cosaw

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    I beleive Win DVD for PC has what's called Pal truespeed, it allows you to play back at the original 24fps instead of pal 25fps. As well as slowing down playback it also corrects the pitch. I think after this processing you can only get analogue audio out though.

    I agree with NicolasB in the dvd mastering process they shouldn't try and pitch correct. They should alow speed up and pitch up in tandem so that they can both be reversed easily as above.

    Why couldn't dvd been released as a universal standard seperate from PAL/NTSC running at 24fps progressive. After that let seperate hardware (in your dvd player) deal with the source when sending to a PAL or NTSC playback device!!

    cosaw
     
  16. MartinImber

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    And worse picture
     
  17. Garrett

    Garrett
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    Is that a region 1 guitar though?:D
     
  18. Squirrel God

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    Now Garrett, you know that I only do multi-region :D
     
  19. Garrett

    Garrett
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    Was that a hack or did you have it chipped?;)
     
  20. Miles@9

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    Can anyone tell me where the 4% speed up comes fom?

    I thought if you play an hour of NTSC through a standers
    converter you get an hour of Pal out the other end.

    If you telecine an hour of film, you get an hour of tape. Pal or NTSC.

    I can only think it's to do with the MEPG encodeing. The software on the DVD disk is neither Pal or NTSC just MEPG and there are flags on the disk that tell the DVD player what format to output.
    Is this correct?

    Help!:hiya:
     
  21. Garrett

    Garrett
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    Frame rate: US is 24 per second UK 25
     
  22. Daneel

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  23. NicolasB

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    A cinema film is 24 frames per second. PAL TV is 25 frames per second. So when converting a film for PAL it's done frame-for-frame, and 25 frames of the film are played back on TV in the time that it normally takes to play 24 frames in the cinema.

    NTSC is 30 frames per second. This can't be done frame-for-frame, so instead they take advantage of the interlacing process. Interlacing means that instead of showing 30 full frames per second you actually see 60 frames per second, with the first frame in each pair showing lines 1, 3, 5, 7, etc. and the second showing lines 2, 4, 6, 8, etc.

    PAL TV is interlaced as well, of course, but it simply shows:

    1) Odd lines of film frame 1.
    2) Even lines of frame 1.
    3) Odd lines of frame 2.
    4) Even lines of frame 2.

    And so on. To show a movie on NTSC you assemble your half frames like this:

    1) Odd lines of film frame 1.
    2) Even lines of frame 1.
    3) Odd lines of frame 2.
    4) Even lines of frame 2.
    5) Odd lines of frame 3.
    6) Even lines of frame 2 again.
    7) Odd lines of frame 3 again.
    8) Even lines of frame 4.
    9) Odd lines of frame 4.
    10) Even lines of frame 4 again.

    (I think - may have got that slightly muddled).

    Thus, 4 frames of film are displayed in 5 frames of TV, hence 24 film frames in 30 TV frames, so the overall speed of playback is correct, but it introduces a slight judder effect.
     
  24. figrin_dan

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    That is brilliant - can you now explain MPEG2?
     
  25. Daneel

    Daneel
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    Can you be a bit more specific? It's a standard for encoding video. If you want to know how it works, google is your friend. The MPEG site has lots of links for you to explore.
     
  26. figrin_dan

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    I've been through the spec before but NicolasB had a simple way of describing PAL & NTSC
     
  27. Underscore

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    Yes, slightly. It should be:

    1) Frame 1, Odd
    2) Frame 1, Even
    3) Frame 1, Odd
    4) Frame 2, Even
    5) Frame 2, Odd
    6) Frame 3, Even
    7) Frame 3, Odd
    8) Frame 3, Even
    9) Frame 4, Odd
    10) Frame 4, Even

    _
     

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