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PAL progressive scan?

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Iassh, Jan 13, 2003.

  1. Iassh

    Iassh
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    Hi,

    I am wondering if "525/50p" is PAL or NTSC ps? I just read in a thread that this is NTSC, but my pj (Sony HS1) displays "525/50p" while watching a PAL disc and "480/60p" when the disc is NTSC. (My player is Primare v25).

    And then, what is "575p"?

    Thanks !!
     
  2. Chris Muriel

    Chris Muriel
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    For 525 line TV (i.e. Native NTSC) there are about 480 active lines ; the rest are blanked out & parts of this are used for closed captioning and the like .

    For 625 lines (normally PAL & SECAM) there are 576 active lines.
    It's the same for the progressive (e.g. 480P) and interlaced (change the "p" to an "i").
    The field rate is normally 50 for PAL and 60 for NTSC but hybrid modes exist and many TVs can lock perfectly well to , e.g, 52=5 lines and 60 Hz as well as 525 lines @ 50 Hz. These hybrid modes are transmitted but are produced by (some) DVD players, digi sat receivers etc.

    For the whole matter in depth, do a search for the book "Video Demystified" - which I believe is now downloadable free somewhere.

    Gordon (from Convergent) could explain this far better than I :-(


    Chris Muriel, Manchester.
     
  3. Iassh

    Iassh
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    Thank you !!
     
  4. wortgames

    wortgames
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    Hi, I have another related question so I'll post it here and see how we go.

    A friend of mine has enlisted my help in purchasing a new TV, as I am an AV tech. He has an HDTV decoder which has switchable PS and interlaced outputs, and he is debating whether to spend the extra cash on a PS widescreen TV or just get the non-PS model.

    I thought this was a no-brainer (get the PS) but he has recently been told by a salesman that there is no real advantage with PS when using PAL format, that it is more of an NTSC thing.

    With PAL using Alternate Lines as a key part of its engineering, I am wondering if this could be true? We are in Australia (which uses the same PAL format as the UK). I haven't been able to find out much about the specific local HDTV broadcast standards, but is it possible that this salesman has a point? Could it be that PS is a waste of money here in Aus?

    Otherwise, why is the salesman trying to talk us down a model?! He has both in stock and they are both from the same manufacturer so I doubt there is any commision advantage for him...
     
  5. JonathanKnight

    JonathanKnight
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    What the salesman probably means is that the TV only takes an NTSC progressive scan input and not a PAL progressive scan input. This means that you need a DVD that can output NTSC PS signals from region 1 DVDs. Now that the legal stuff around PAL PS is getting sorted out there will be more PAL PS DVDs coming out and eventually more PAL PS televisions. At the moment, if you do not count plasmas and projectors there are very few TVs that take PAL PS, more will probably come along this year.
     
  6. StooMonster

    StooMonster
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    Unless you buy a plasma. Most of which accept NTSC and PAL progressive signals.

    Check out the plasma thread on this board.

    StooMonster
     
  7. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    WORT: Pal progressive outputting DVD palyers have been quite rare worldwide due to copy protection licensing issues. This means that most retail outlets will not have had access to progressive scan PAL DVD players or suitable television systems. In fact it's perfectly possible that some retailers still think such products dont exist.

    HiDef and PAL are two different things. Lets concentrate on PAL. If your mate is able to get a TV that can accept a PAL progressive signal from an external source and can also get a DVD player that outputs PAL progressively (and this is probably where the sales guy is confused) then he should do it. Quality de-interlacing is of just as much benefit to PAL as it is to NTSC material. Anyone who tell you other wise is, unfortunately, wrong.

    Gordon
     
  8. wortgames

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    Thanks folks, I think I get the picture now (pun intended). That NTSC PS thing is obviously one of those slimy tricks that manufacturers use to make you think their product does more than it actually can. You know it's a PAL/multiformat TV, it has 'Progressive Scan' in bright graphics across the front, but they don't put too much effort into correcting your assumptions!

    In a nutshell, we will probably opt for the non-PS model regardless. There is several hundred dollars difference, he is happy with his (non-PS) DVD player and the current level of PS broadcasting in Australia is not worth getting excited about.

    I have also managed to find out a bit more about the local digital TV situation. I'll quickly post my understanding here for the benefit of other Aussies searching the archives. I'd really appreciate any input from anyone who knows better..!


    Digital broadcasting in Australia has two simultaneous formats, Standard Definition (SDTV) and High Definition (HDTV).

    All digital broadcasters are required to broadcast in SDTV format to ensure compatibility with most TV sets and to support those people who choose to buy just SDTV decoders (which are cheaper than combined SDTV/HDTV decoders). There is one standardized SDTV picture resolution (576 lines x 720 pixels @ 50Hz interlaced, or 576i). This is approximately the same resolution as a standard PAL video signal (eg, that from a DVD player) but is in widescreen (16:9 aspect ratio). Its advantage to the home viewer (other than the widescreen and enhanced audio) is in the digital transmission and the lack of RF-modulation and reception problems such as ghosting.

    HDTV is only viewable with an HDTV decoder (either built-in to an HDTV set or as a separate unit which will offer the option of down-converting the signal so that it can be viewed on a normal TV set). There are ramping schedules for the minimum number of hours of HDTV which broadcasters must provide (currently 1040 hours per year (20 per week) including advertising) but there are three 'standards' which they may choose from: 576p (576 horizontal lines progressive), 720p (720 horizontal lines progressive), and 1080i (1080 horizontal lines interlaced).

    Currently Nine, Ten and the ABC are using 1080i for HD broadcasts, while SBS and Seven are using 576p. 720p is not being used by any broadcaster at this stage.

    As far as I can tell, all HDTV decoders are capable of handling the various formats so there are no 'compatibility' issues within receivers.

    (NB - There is no guarantee that the three broadcasters currently using the PS format will continue to do so. While unlikely, they are all free to change to the interlaced format leaving Australia without any PS broadcasting, which would then affect the uptake and availability of PS TVs (depending on cost and marketing) and, by extension, PS DVDs etc).


    I hope this helps, and thanks again for your input!

    -WG
     

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