1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

PAL Progressive Scan- Not worth the candle

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by old-Bill, Jan 2, 2004.

  1. old-Bill

    old-Bill
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2003
    Messages:
    76
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hi,

    Looking for a bit more knowledge, I have been told that NTSC progressive scan is absolutely a necessity for improved pictures with component video but that PAL progressive scan is an indulgence; that while helping a little is not a necessity for the price concious buyer!

    What is your opinion on this as I am new to the scene and have never experienced either.

    Bill
    :confused:
     
  2. Jeff

    Jeff
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    5,489
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Basingstoke
    Ratings:
    +256
    It mainly depends on the display, i.e can it properly handle PAL PS? If it can the same reasons for NTSC PS hold true for PAL.
     
  3. old-Bill

    old-Bill
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2003
    Messages:
    76
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Ratings:
    +0
    Jeff,

    Thanks for your reply,

    I am thinking about a Toshiba 36ZP38B crt television

    Bill
     
  4. cybersoga

    cybersoga
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2002
    Messages:
    1,628
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    UK
    Ratings:
    +25
    Old Bill, what you've been told sounds like salesman BS. PAL (576p) progressive scan offers the same benifits as NTSC (480p), but it has about 100 extra horizontal lines compared with NTSC. Of course the display has to support PAL progressive scan, but the most critial thing is to get a dvd player that does 2:2 weave (film mode deinterlacing) and has good chroma upsampling, if it doesn't do it properly it's not worth doing at all.
     
  5. StooMonster

    StooMonster
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Messages:
    4,970
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Kent
    Ratings:
    +314
    old-Bill, I have to agree with cybersoga and say that it sounds like either a comment from a salesman trying to sell you old kit (that only supports progressive NTSC) or someone with old kit (justifying their its non support of progressive PAL).

    Progressive PAL offers all the same benefits as progressive NTSC, but was only recently officially licenced (a year or so ago). Therefore you may find old kit supports progressive scan for NTSC but not for PAL. (Almost) all new kit supports both.

    StooMonster
     
  6. old-Bill

    old-Bill
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2003
    Messages:
    76
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hi,,
    Thanks for your replies, I wanted to be able to play DVD-A and SACD and have progressive scan in NTSC and PAL.
    The suggestion was to go for a Pioneer DV-565A and forget PAL ps as it was not necessary where as NTSC was essential.

    I was thinhing of purchasing a Toshiba 36ZP38B tele, Yamaha 740RDS receiver and then demo some speakers, so what player would you recommend?

    Bill
     
  7. cybersoga

    cybersoga
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2002
    Messages:
    1,628
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    UK
    Ratings:
    +25
    The Sony 730/930/999 does a reasonable job with most PAL films. The new Arcam might be worth a look, but i've not had the pleasure. I have tried the Denon 2900 and didn't like it (search the forum you might find my comments somewhere). PAL Progressive is a recent advancement and the technology is in it's infancy (it's hard for a dvd player to automatically know when to engage it's 2:2 film mode), no doubt that it'll improve with new deinterlacers & dvd players coming out later this year.

    My point was that if the dvd player doesn't do 2:2 weave film mode properly then your better off using interlaced output of a dvd player.
     
  8. Dimmy

    Dimmy
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2003
    Messages:
    2,399
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    39
    Location:
    England
    Ratings:
    +0
    It was actually me who inferred this in a thread in the AMPS forum.

    I didn't say PAL Progressive wasn't worthwhile, I just said a DVD player that de-interlaces in the digital domain with PAL material wasn't absolutely essential to the movie watching experience (i.e. it's entirely possible to fully enjoy interlaced PAL pictures on a 36" CRT). Whereas with NTSC there's such a large difference between progressive & interlaced pictures that it's nigh on essential to have NTSC Progressive.

    Bill also said he wanted a DVD-A and SACD compatible player on a relatively small budget, what sprung to mind was the pioneer 565, which doesn't support PAL Progressive. I was simply re-iterating that he could still enjoy PAL material fully by having the Toshiba Telly de-interlace the Pioneer's interlaced output.

    Indeed PAL Progressive does offer the same benefits as NTSC progressive, but the improvement isn't as striking as with NTSC progressive's comparison with interlaced NTSC.
     
  9. Jeff

    Jeff
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    5,489
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Basingstoke
    Ratings:
    +256
    No this isn't correct, the difference is just as striking, if experience tells you otherwise then you haven't seen PAL PS done properly on a display that supports it.
     
  10. old-Bill

    old-Bill
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2003
    Messages:
    76
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hi,

    It seems as if experience of differing equipment may have an influence on the visual output.

    To be on the safe side what DVD player would you recommend that had both types of progressive scan and DVD-A and SACD.?

    As Dimmy indicated I was trying to buy on a limited budget of around £2500 and this limited choices but I had a niggling concern over Pal ps and wished to clear it up in my mind fully before making the purchase.

    Thanks everyone,

    Bill
     
  11. Jeff

    Jeff
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    5,489
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Basingstoke
    Ratings:
    +256
    This is normaly dictated by the DVD region that you buy, if most of your collection is R1 then its a non issue, if you have lots of PAL DVDs, look for a solution that works well with PAL.
     
  12. Dimmy

    Dimmy
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2003
    Messages:
    2,399
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    39
    Location:
    England
    Ratings:
    +0
    Exactly my point.

    To get this functionality you'll have to spend more than double the cost of the Pioneer 565, which - given your budget - I wouldn't advise.

    On a projector or Plasma, yes.

    On a 36" CRT, no, it's certainately not worth sacrificing the quality of the Audio Setup for.
     
  13. cybersoga

    cybersoga
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2002
    Messages:
    1,628
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    UK
    Ratings:
    +25
    I can't really tell you what to buy i'm afraid, i've yet to find the perfect DVD player, you always have to compromise somewhere! Most current PAL PS supporting displays tend to be plasmas, lcds and projectors.
     
  14. old-Bill

    old-Bill
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2003
    Messages:
    76
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hi,

    I presently do not have a collection, I live in Scotland but was hoping to use internet downloads along with the usual purchases,
    the Toshiba does Pal progressive scan.

    Bill
     
  15. StooMonster

    StooMonster
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Messages:
    4,970
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Kent
    Ratings:
    +314
    Surely this is not THE OLD BILL condoning the illegal download of movies from the internet?

    Even if it's not, the quality of "ripped" DVDs is VHS at best, and worrying about progressive scan is a waste of time. (You wouldn't get that rubbish near my kit, what's the point in spending money to get quality hardware and then putting crap software in?)

    StooMonster
     
  16. old-Bill

    old-Bill
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2003
    Messages:
    76
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Ratings:
    +0
    Ooops!'

    Old Bill was referring to my name and age not being in the
    Po-lice, thought it sounded more interesting!

    As I am a complete novice, I cannot assume anything and therefor have to obtain knowledge from all sources and take as an educated guess as possible.

    As far as downloading poor data, I'm sure this happens, as human nature dictates that curiosity overcomes sensibility, in the end I'm sure you are correct but everyone has to learn.

    Its a little like being gifted a good body, fit and healthy and then putting filth and crap in it like, fags, alchohol, drugs etc. when you don't know any better you'll try anything in ignorance.

    The reason I am writing to this Forum is to learn the lessons other poeple have learned over time and experince so that I don't have to invent the wheel to find out.

    I very much respect Dimmys advice and everything else I have learned on this excellent site, the more questions asked the more I learn.

    My ignorance leads me to ask questions that seem transparent to the cognisenti and insult their knowledge with stupidity and I apologise unconditionally for any hurt or insult percevied in the pursuit of knowledge.

    Bill
     
  17. bonzobanana

    bonzobanana
    Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2001
    Messages:
    3,446
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Yeovil
    Ratings:
    +219
    Being a bit of a star trek fan I download enterprise episodes from the internet in svcd format which have been created from recordings of high definition material. The quality is excellent and ntsc progressive scan does a wonderful job of displaying them on my ae100 projector. Also many xvid/divx films are excellent quality with full 5.1 sound. Neither quite matches the quality of commercial dvds but they can be damn close and to compare them to vhs is totally wrong. Some downloads are poor but they are not ripped from dvd but instead someone's sat in the cinema filming with a camcorder and then transferred it at home. Even some VCDs easily surpass VHS.

    Another factor is the official dvdforums who set the rules on how commercial dvds can be displayed with regards scaling etc prevent me from using my Kiss dp-450 in vga mode with commercial protected dvds. However I can display any non protected format including some lightly protected commercial dvds. End result is the copy actually beats the original in display quality because I can use higher quality high resolution modes with it. Its stupid and goes against the interest of film companies but its a reality of their rules.

    If you make a copy of a dual layer dvd onto 2 dvd-rs you can actually improve quality by removing macrovision. Ok you've got to change discs at some point but then many players pause at the layer change and so your jolted out of the plot temporarily anyway.
     
  18. cybersoga

    cybersoga
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2002
    Messages:
    1,628
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    UK
    Ratings:
    +25
    outlaw! :D
     
  19. bobgriffiths

    bobgriffiths
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I have a pioneer 757I with NTSC and PAL progressive and a panasonic 42" PW6 plasma .
    As an AV installer (i also install products for other companies than my own) i chose this combo after seeing many other combos.
    All i can say is no one has ever said the pictures poor and over Xmas i demo'ed to many members of my family who normally say they dont like something out of jealousy and to upset me but the quality of the picture is just so good you cant diss it .
    Familiy members.... dont you just love them... the turkey wasnt dry, the wine wasnt corked ,the presents we gave them were expensive...doesnt stop them from telling you when there drunk..

    Glad its over!! bahh humbug!!
     
  20. old-Bill

    old-Bill
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2003
    Messages:
    76
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Ratings:
    +0
    So am I!
     

    Attached Files:

  21. cj

    cj
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2001
    Messages:
    1,457
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Reading
    Ratings:
    +74
    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but how did you work that out? As far as I'm aware it is quite possible to "rip" DVDs at the same quality they are on the original disk. Yes you often have to remove special features, different languages etc. and if the movie still doesn't fit onto 4.7gig, then you can reduce the quality.
     
  22. StooMonster

    StooMonster
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Messages:
    4,970
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Kent
    Ratings:
    +314
    I was referring to illegal content downloaded from the internet, which was what OLD-BILL was talking about; which is not what you describe above. These are typically SVCD images where movie fits on to 740MB CD-R, they are not DVD quality images and have mono or stereo sound at best -- as far as I understand from idiots I know who download this stuff.

    Furthermore, it is an internet myth that movies only take up half the disc and the other content takes up the rest, what you describe would always require the reduction of picture and audio quality. What is the point?

    As I said, if you are going to put crap software through your system, why spend any money on good quality kit? You would be better off buying your AV from Asda and save yourself even more money.

    StooMonster
     
  23. bonzobanana

    bonzobanana
    Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2001
    Messages:
    3,446
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Yeovil
    Ratings:
    +219
    A svcd film could be as many as four discs but more than likely 2 discs. The quality does not match a commercial dvd but its a long way ahead of vhs and is at least as good as the image you get off a skybox if its been well done.

    I don't think anyone's using these discs exclusively. I myself have a reasonable 150 collection of commercial dvds. Its often downloading a film and realising I liked it that prompts me to buy the original dvd.

    Many of my commercial dvds aren't amazing quality. I was just watching 2010 region 2 this morning and the quality is fairly poor. It may be there is no good cinema print of this film to transfer but its pretty ropey all round. If I compare it to Galaxy Quest that I watched part of yesterday that looked truly fantastic. So the average dvd punter like me has to put up with varying quality anyway even of commercial dvds. I was annoyed when i went round to a friends house and found his VCD copies of Family guy season 1 looked much better than my region 2 season 1 collection. I think they were taped and captured of american tv too. Not sure whats going on there with the transfer. Yes they were lower resolution but the image and colour was much cleaner.
     
  24. old-Bill

    old-Bill
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2003
    Messages:
    76
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Ratings:
    +0
    StooMonster,

    I was referring to music as well as movies, people will play whatever they want whenever they want on their home cinemas whether you or I agree or not.
    Experimentation is part of the fun of learning, I also imagine there is content on the internet (not refering to porn.) that cannot be purchased in this country but is of interest to viewers, that does not or cannot be viewed perfectly because of its origin or age. Watching high quality DVD films is only one use for AV equipment.

    Bill
     

Share This Page

Loading...