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PAL PROGRESSIVE - READ THIS !!!

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by tiberious, May 21, 2001.

  1. tiberious

    tiberious
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    From everything I have read previously, it was alluded that the delay in PAL Progressive was due to the "lack of agreed copy protection standard", with the finger pointed at macrovision for not having this ready.

    On Friday, I had the opportunity to meet with the President of Macrovision, and I asked him for his thoughts on this matter.

    He didn`t think it was them , but said he would check with his chief engineer.True to his word, this morning I received the following answer.....

    Subject: RE: Macrovision Encoding for 625p Waveforms


    Dear Steven-
    re our conversation on Friday about whether Macrovision is responsible for the delay in the launch of 625p (PAL progressive scan) CE devices, please see the response below from Peter Wonfor who is our Director of Technical Support for our Video Technology division.  Please let me know if you have any additional questions.  Also- if you have a minute, perhaps you could let me know more specifically where the query came from?

    Thanks
    Bill

    Bill Krepick
    President/COO
    Macrovision Corp.
    1341 Orleans Drive
    Sunnyvale, CA  94089
    tel  408.743.8420
    fax  408.743.8610
    e-mail: bkrepick@macrovision.com

     -----Original Message-----
    From:   Peter Wonfor 
    Sent:   Friday, May 18, 2001 5:31 PM
    To:     Bill Krepick
    Cc:     Carol Flaherty
    Subject:        Macrovision Encoding for 625p Waveforms
    Importance:     High

    Hi Bill:

    I understand that one of our intitutional investors has heard comments from either the studios or the hardware manufacturers that Macrovision is holding up the introduction of 625p (Progressive Scan) outputs on DVD players.  I find this extraordinarily surprising, and feel that there must be a misperception somewhere.  Since the procedure to adopt a new output signal standard is not as simple as might reasonably be imagined, I hope the following brief summary of the status of 625p copy protection, and what needs to be done to permit its introduction will help to explain this.

    1. Macrovision has provided a timely proposal for a Macrovision-encoded 625p copy protection waveform in response to requests from a number of CE hardware/device companies and IC manufacturers.  For the same technical reasons that applied in the case of 525p copy protection, the proposed 625p copy protection waveform can not be field tested by Macrovision since there are no (or insufficient) pre-existing 625p capable display products deployed in the market on which to perform compatibility tests.

    Macrovision has contacted the Studios directly to let them know that Macrovision is prepared to support 625p copy protection encoding and that the proposed Macrovision encoded waveform definition is available.

    2. The only entities that can approve the use of 625p outputs on DVD players are the rights holders (studios).  Once the studios have endorsed the concept of having Macrovision copy protection on the 625p outputs, a modification to the CSS license agreement would be required, since this is linked to the requirement for a Macrovision license and to implementing copy protection on analog video outputs. 

    3. To expedite the introduction of DVD players with 625p outputs, those with the primary interest in achieving this objective need to make representation to the studios, since the studios are the onces to decide whether 625p copy protection using Macrovision's technology is satisfactory.  By presenting its 625p copy protection waveform specification proposal to the CPTWG (Copy Protection Technical Working Group) Macrovision has made this information available to a wide relevant audience that included representatives of the studios, hardware companies, IC manufacturers, and representatives of the DVD Forum and DVD-CCA (i.e., CSS Licensing entity) organizations.  Macrovision cannot unilaterally approve and release a 625p Macrovision waveform definition for the same reasons as were applicable in the case of 525p.

    4. Display manufacturers have a specific interest in any new waveform that their products are expected to be compatible with.  Macrovision has responded to all such manufacturers requesting information, and has proactively contacted other CE manufacturers in an attempt to make sure that the proposed 625p Macrovision encoding will be compatible with 625p display products that come on to the market.

    5. Since no additional license fees or costs will be charged by Macrovision for 625p Macrovision encoding (it will be included in the existing 525p specifications and agreement documents upon approval by the Studios and DVD authorities) there is no delay to the adoption of 625p as a result of cost considerations.

    I would be very interested to find out how the impression arose that we were responsible for holding up implementation of 625Progressive Scan devices.  Macrovision has no interest in delaying the launch of 625p-capable products; Macrovision's objective is to support the Studios in providing the best possible copy protection for any analog video signal format with which its technology is compatible.  This would hardly be achieved by deliberately delaying the introduction of products with 625p Macrovision-encoded outputs.

    I hope this is helpful.  Please let me know if you have any comments or questions.


    Any thoughts folks !!
     
  2. Stuart Wright

    Stuart Wright
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    (I haven't read the full reply above, but) I understood it that the reason PAL progressive was held up is that the people organising progressive scan on DVD (the DVD consortium?) FORGOT to ask Macrovision to create a PAL protection system as well as an NTSC system.
    I think most people who know about the subject know this to be the case.
    As far as I'm concerned, anyone who thinks it is Macrovision's fault is misinformed.

    [ 21-05-2001: Message edited by: Spectre ]
     
  3. tiberious

    tiberious
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    In short...

    1 - the standard is there and available
    2 - the studios, for whatever reason, have not agreed to it (as yet)
    3 - not enough players out to field test on.

    - so, chicken and egg ?

    If all the above is true, why do we have NO official products with Pal progressive capability - Denon, Toshiba, Pioneer and Arcam are the only ones with NTSC progressive - and then only on high end models.

    Where are panasonic ?, where are the mass produced machines ?.I guess we will all have to make do with hacked versions of the above machines for the near future.

    Can`t wait for my Skyworth - if nothing else it will tide me over until this mess is sorted out.
     
  4. John Dawson

    John Dawson
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    Extraordinary timing! Right now I am packing my bags and laptop on my way to the next CPTWG meeting to present the case as to why we should have a legal form of 625 line progressive outputs on DVD players. This is perfectly possible with the Macrovision proposal to which you refer but a lot of lobbying will still need to be done.

    We already have thoughtful letters of support from Meridian, Denon and HCC (life has been too hectic to chase up the major Japanese manufacturers - many of whom will be represented on the CPTWG anyway).

    If anyone here would like to add their reasoned views as to why 625p would be a Good Thing please do so within the next 36 hours. All sensible views gratefully received.

    John Dawson (Arcam)
     
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    Tell them what do they think consumers would go for if they had to choose between:

    Progressive NTSC (looks great)
    and
    Interlaced PAL

    What do they think consumers will end up doing (especially as US progressive hardware drops in price and unoffical PALInterlaced -> NTSC Progressive system start to be released)

    If they decided against Progessive PAL then they are just promoting cross region selling of dvds.

    I have been tempted to go for a progessive NTSC setup, especially since seeing the Sony 9000 that does NTSC Progressive out and a US Plasma with Progressive NTSC support. But I have been waiting to see if anything happens with Progressive PAL.
     
  6. Edgeyboy

    Edgeyboy
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    John,

    The market place needs new technology like PAL Progressive to help keep driving the European DVD market forward.

    New DVD technology in turns revs up the TV and projector / display markets, which in turn revs up the electical consumer retail businesses.

    There is no question that we consumers want to cheat the system and copy our DVDs. We simply want to display them at the highest possible quality.

    With an official format agreed, this whole process is much simpler for everybody.

    Have a fruitful trip.

    Best Regards

    Tom
     
  7. Blade

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    John,

    The Chinese Manufacturers have now begun to release Progressive PAL on certain players. Tyhe Skyworth has it, and I know of at least three other Players in production that do the same.

    If a Standard is not set we could potentially see a significant numbers of Europeans importing Chinese clones specifically for this feature.

    Having seen a UK Progressive PAL player I can say that it presents a far better image (than even Progressive NTSC) and is ideal for use on Projector Screens upto 6ft(ish). But the ludicrous situation regarding lack of standard means that it cannot (currently) be released.

    This is a major Consumer feature that is being denied to the Consumer.
     
  8. tiberious

    tiberious
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    John,

    nothing else to add - the case is clear, if no official product is available, people will look at other ways - imports,hacks etc.

    Why would they NOT want this ? - there is no case that I can think of.

    Best of luck mate - please let us know how you get on.
     
  9. lmccauley

    lmccauley
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    John,

    Are you able to let us know how things went at the CPTWG meeting, or regarding progress on the "legalisation" of 625 line progressive scan in general?

    Cheers,
    Liam
     
  10. lmccauley

    lmccauley
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    John,

    Thanks for the pointer to your presentation at the CPTWG. For everyone else, here it is:

    <a href="http://www.cptwg.org/Assets/Presentations/CPTWGpresentation245.ppt" target="_blank">http://www.cptwg.org/Assets/Presentations/CPTWGpresentation245.ppt</a>

    Cheers,<br />Liam
     

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