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PAL Prog. Scan Illegal?!?!

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by Kirk, Jul 30, 2002.

  1. Kirk

    Kirk
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    Hi,

    I have just received an E-Mail from Denon in which I asked if the new DVD-2800 MKII would support PAL Prog. Scan....their response is as follows:


    Thank you for your e-mail regarding Denon Products.

    At this present time Pure Progressive Scan in PAL is
    Illegal, this is in conjunction with the DVD-FORUM.
    With the DVD-2800II you would need to take the picture
    to your Panasonic in an interlace mode.

    Please speak to your dealer for his input on this subject.
    .


    What!?!?!

    Why is PAL Prog Scan illegal? what is the reason that NTSC is okay but we can't have it?

    I am feeling extremly frustrated in trying to decide which DVD player to get to match up with my Future Panasonic/Toshiba 42" Plasma. :confused:
     
  2. nigel_williams

    nigel_williams
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    Sucks, doesn't it.... but that's the US studio system for you.

    Yes it's true, PAL progressive is illegal so the there's not many options. A PC will give you a good picture if you're willing to live with the hassle, the alternative is high-end players like the Arcam DV88 or DV27.
     
  3. Tim Ashdown

    Tim Ashdown
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    Someone jump in and correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a hack for PAL Progressive on the 2800. I think the most interesting thing about Denons reply is this. "Please speak to your dealer for his input on this subject." Now why would they want you to get your dealers input on this subject. As Pal P is illegal it would seem they may have to reply in this way, but reading between the lines they could be saying, go see your dealer and he'll sort it out for you!
     
  4. Kirk

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    As far as I know, the original Denon DVD-2800 did have a firmware update to give PAL Prog Scan, however this model has many, many issues.

    The new MKII I would guess WILL also get an firmware hack, but I wonder if the other issues will have gone.

    I also am guessing that the comment about seeing your dealer is something to do with getting them to explain why PAL prog is a no-no?

    Whichver way the cookie crumbles, why in gods name cant we just have it! sheesh...must Europe be kept 2 years behind all the time?!?! booooooo!:mad:
     
  5. Timh

    Timh
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    I could be wrong but I think that pal progressive scan disrupts the macro vision, thus enabling you to make copy's of dvd's in progressive pal.
    Can anyone clarify this?
     
  6. jonny m

    jonny m
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    Timh
    I think the whole issue is becoming a running joke, I remember one post recently that insisted that macrovision was certified for progressive pal dvd, its the studio's that arn't adopting it for some reason.

    Are they afraid of pal dvd copies that are higher res than ntsc?

    The whole issue is nuts considering you can get access to the pal mpeg2 data without having to resample using a pc and any number of decrypting tools.

    Are these people completely out of touch with reality??

    Drives me nuts too I have to have a pc whirring away and set the whole thing up myself rather than simply walk into dixons and pull a prog scan dvd player off the shelf - a treat ntsc viewers have been able to enjoy for some time now.

    Or will the embargo or whatever be lifted soon?

    Panasonic have now released prog scan pal tv's and will shortly release the players also.

    Is something on the cards??

    j
     
  7. Samir

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    You can indeed get a firmware update for the Denon 2800 for Pal Prog this is the ESS2250 firmware.
    And don't believe all the hype you read regarding the 2800, I've had mine since Oct 01 and have not had a single problem. :)

    Samir
     
  8. gringottsdirect

    gringottsdirect
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    I've had a couple of little quirks, but for the money the Denon is superb. The only player with the same/better picture quality I have used is the Arcam FMJ27, which as you know is £1600.

    Your Denon dealer will ..........censored;) .
     
  9. Kirk

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    I am very much a Denon fan and I was 99% sure I was getting the 2800 until a few people pointed out the issues with this player, I am hanging back for the MKII and to see if people can see if the problems have been fixed.

    Is it out yet?

    If the 2800 still has issues, then I am not sure where to go, the pioneer 747 can be modified by Techtronics to do PAL prog scan, but it suddly becomes a player that tops £1000 in this guise....I dont want to spend that much.

    The Toshiba 900E gets good reviews, but it aint PAL Prog.

    So I am truly stuffed I think at the moment:confused:

    One player I havn't heard much about is the Denon 3800 though, don't know if this suffers from the digital artifacts and Chroma problems as well?
     
  10. Reiner

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    I could be wrong but I think that pal progressive scan disrupts the macro vision, thus enabling you to make copy's of dvd's in progressive pal. Can anyone clarify this?

    Correct, the only reason why PAL PS is illegal is due to copyright reasons as in theory you can make a very clean copy from that. I think Macrovision does actually not work with RGB/YUV at all.
    (Since there is no (consumer) recording device with RGB input it hasn't been much of an issue so far.)

    Thus it is correct that a manufacturer cannot offer PAL PS officially at this moment.
    But it is also a fact that some players can be 'hacked' to provide this, this includes the e.g. Denon 2800.
    As well I heard a rumour that the Arcam DV-88 with PS board has a hidden menu which mentiones PAL PS (even via RGB if I am not mistaken).

    You may also find this of interest: http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42558
     
  11. Jenz

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    *ahem* Rumour? ;) DV27 too.
     
  12. jonny m

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    Kirk
    why dont you go for a phillips p962sa from hifizone?

    seems to have some very happy owners and for approx £550 inc tax's.

    j
     
  13. Reiner

    Reiner
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    *ahem* Rumour? DV27 too.

    No rumour, I know ... though I wasn't aware that it can be done via RGB!?
     
  14. Guest

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    went to Sevenoaks in Leeds yesterday lunch after seeing this thread and saw at least four players labeled (by the manufacturer not retailer) as PAL PROG including a tosh 510. what's up with that?
     
  15. jonny m

    jonny m
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    James45
    Very strange, the tosh 510 can only do ntsc prog scan as far as I am aware but I would love to be corrected on this matter, as the only reason I didn't keep my 510 was due to no pal prog scan.

    Could you double check with your store.

    Thanks
    John
     
  16. Guest

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    it was definitely labeled pal prog as was the arcam DV27.

    they had the 510 showing harry potter through a fujitsu plasma, I have never before seen such a poor picture, hardly something they should use as a showpiece.
     
  17. ian_guinan

    ian_guinan
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    ..probably attached via 'pal progressive' composite then knowing Sevenoaks ;)

    Regards,
    Ian Guinan
     
  18. karkus30

    karkus30
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    The Philips 962SA does Pal progressive, but only if you buy a dcdi version which, for some reason you cant get in the EU. I have just ordered one from HiVizone after reading about it on this forum. It works out around 550.00 uk pounds including shipping charges, I await mine with anticipation. It also has NTSC progressive scan and is region free, how clever is that.

    Karl
     
  19. Kirk

    Kirk
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    hmmm I think I will investigate this player...I havn't heard of it before.

    :blush: Or DCDI ! :blush: wussatden?
     
  20. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    DCDi is a process developed to reduce jaggies when de-interlacing video sourced material. It is a feature of the SAGE chipset. Most folk would call this the Faroudja chipset. Faroudja are regrded as one of the industry leaders in video processing....

    Gordon
     
  21. Kirk

    Kirk
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    Ahhh all becomes clear!

    So what do you think then Gordon?

    I am looking at getting one of the Denon's (2800/3800) but I want it multi-region and at least NTSC prog scan, PAL as well preferably.

    Do you think I should hold out for firmware hacks on the Denon's or look elsewhere at these Pioneer 747, Philips Q50/962SA etc?
     
  22. Nike

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    I'm seriously considering one of these.
    It's also supposed to be a pretty good SACD player.
     
  23. karkus30

    karkus30
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    There is a write up in one of this months DVD magazines, which gave it a bit of an average review with SACD, I would think you would be better off with a dedicated player. However they forgave the average performance on CD, because of the superb picture quality. They were under the impression it contained the Farouja dcdi chip, but closer inspection revealed no dcdi logo on the front of the machine so they probably have this wrong. But as they felt gave the picture quality a blinding review without the chip & prog scan, imagine what it must be like with it.
     
  24. WSquared

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    Just thought you guys might like to know that the Philips 963sa(NOT 962) is due to be released in September. This time the European version will retain the Faroudja de-interlacing chip. Then it is just a matter of time before a hack comes araound to enable 576p on it.

    The user manual was recently added to philips support site.
    http://www.p4c.philips.com/mprdata/...7310000_dfu.pdf
    The 963 has many audiophile grade components, but I still would rate it as high as the Denon 3800. We'll see when it is available. I have posted info on the 963sa before in this thread.
     
  25. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    I wouldn't b e in too much of a hurry to believe a magazine review on picture quality...or sound quality actually!

    Gordon
     
  26. Guest

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    Interesting to note that Meridian use DCDI for their
    800 series & 598 DVD Video/Audio player....
    Hopefully, they'll mod the 596 to accommodate as well!

    Adzman
     
  27. karkus30

    karkus30
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    I dont usually take much notice of magazine tests, paid advertising etc. But they tested about 40 players and unlike the usual what hi fi 5 star deals, some players actually had poor write ups which is a bit unusual. Having read the review and also one of the threads on this forum, who has bought a Philips machine it seems it is a pretty safe bet. I wonder if anyone will start a magazine with totally impartial reviews ?
     

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