PAL or NTSC?

Discussion in 'Movie Forum' started by smartiepants, Mar 12, 2004.

  1. smartiepants

    smartiepants
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    or in otherwords R2 on pal or R1 or R3 on ntsc which produces the best picture quality
     
  2. LV426

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    This is an unanswerable question that has been debated ad nauseam here.

    Theory:

    1: PAL has more horizontal lines so resolution is better
    2: Films transferred to PAL video are sped up by 4% which shortens running time and can affect the pitch of music and dialogue. NTSC is the correct speed.
    3: Depending on how good your hardware is, there may be a juddering effect on fast motion with NTSC sources (known as 3:2 pulldown). However, good hardware will not demonstrate this issue.

    The facts:

    Other differences in disc mastering, compression and data rates, etc, will have a greater effect on PQ than the increased resolution of PAL offers. So, for a given title, NTSC may be better, or PAL may be better.

    Other issues, such as censorship may also affect a buying decision.

    Take a look at the sensible and informed comparison sites - such as dvdcompare.net and michaeldvd.com.au and you will see in both cases that they NEVER rate one disc more highly than another, simply because of its video signal format.
     
  3. FoxyMulder

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    Generally speaking i think for animated titles PAL is best but for all other titles i tend to buy NTSC, personal preference also comes into it and it is tempting to just walk into a shop and be able to buy a disc but for me its NTSC unless its animated.
     
  4. chriskeens

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    I just buy the first one I come across :confused: which is normally NTSC
     
  5. jay75

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    Given a choice I prefer to buy region 2 PAL but at the end of the day if another region has DTS and region 2 doesn't then I prefer to go with that, also price and censorship influence my choices.
     
  6. Doctorb

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    All things being equal, Pal is the superior format.
    Ok you may get better extras and have the opportunity to bragg that you've got the film before anyone else (i know many people who use that as the main reason), but head to head on picture quality NTSC is low resolution compared to pal.
    I do have a few NTSC dvds but only because there not available in Pal.

    And regarding speed up, unless your commander data you won't notice.
     
  7. Dr_Mike

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    Just got my first NTSC disc this week, (The Running Man SE) and was suprised how noticable the 3:2 judder was, particularly on slow panning shiots. (Great DTS sound though!)

    Nigel, when you say this effect is improved on better equipment, are you talking about really expensive stuff, or would a good prog-scan palyer fed into an LCD projector be alot better ? I'm asking specifically as these are what I'm planning to be getting soon.
     
  8. john R1

    john R1
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    Have not got over expensive gear Dv89 prog scan via component into pw6b have never realy noticed ntsc judder, i buy reg 1 because they are normally cheaper no other reason
     
  9. LV426

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    Yes, in all probability. If the DeInterlacer in the DVD player is doing a good job it will rid you of 3:2 pulldown motion judder completely from NTSC sources. You will get motion smoothness as good as it was on the film in the first place.
     
  10. Rimmer

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    Surely you mean more vertical lines? NTSC is 720 x 480. PAL is 720 x 576, giving 20% more vertical resolution.

    Progressive scan does not remove judder - you still get 11,222,33,444, etc. The only way to remove judder is if you have a 72Hz capable display that detects the 2-3 frame succession and converts it to a 3-3 pulldown - each frame shown 3 times. Some Pioneer plasmas have an 'Advanced Cinema' mode with 3-3 pulldown support.
     
  11. LV426

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    I mean horizontal lines. TV signals are always made up of an array of horizontal lines. NTSC has 480 horizontal lines. PAL has 576 horizontal lines. You're right in that it is the vertical resolution that is dependent on the number of horizontal lines, though.
     
  12. Rimmer

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    You're just trying to confuse me.:laugh:
     
  13. LV426

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    Really?

    The amount of detail that can be displayed in the VERTICAL direction is determined by the number of ROWS (not COLUMNS) of data/pixels/scanlines whatever.

    Seems simple enough to me.
     
  14. CKNA

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    You are wrong. The lines you speak of are vertical. NTSC has 480 vertical lines and PAL has 576. Horizontal resolution per DVD spec is 720 for both but you never get that due to filtering, linearity of DAC's and other factors. On well mastered discs, it usually tops out at 540.

    When listing resolution horizontal numbers are always listed first.
     
  15. CKNA

    CKNA
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    Excuse me... I did not know that when talking about PAL resolution, it almost sounds like it is as good as High Defintion.

    What were we thinking in US?. Instead of switching to HD we should have just switched to PAL. :D

    Next time I watch PAL DVD, I will wear sunglasses so I do not go blind from all that resolution. :laugh:
     
  16. LV426

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    I'm not wrong. The 576 LINES in PAL are horizontal lines. The number of horizontal lines determines the vertical resolution.

    If a resolution is quoted as (eg) 720 x 576 it means

    720 columns (vertical lines) and 576 rows (horizontal lines).

    Rows (lines) are displayed one below another (i.e. in a vertical stack).

    But it DOES mean horizontal resolution is 720, and vertical resolution is 576.

    Or, to put it another way.....

    If a display had a vertical resolution of 2, then it would consist of 2 horizontal lines.

    Go and find a large screen monochrome CRT TV. Get close to the screen. And look for the horizontal scan lines. And count them. On a PAL signal there will be 576 of them (assuming no overscanning). And on NTSC there will be 480. Always has been; always will be.
     
  17. Mr.D

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    No the 576 lines are horizontal but they represent the vertical resolution which is the point Nigel weas making.
    As are the 480 lines in NTSC.

    Its 720pixels in the x axis 480 in the y axis ergo 480 horizontal "lines" 720 vertical lines if you like but as scanning beams tend to work in a horizontal direction there is not much point referring to the 720 pixels as resolving to vertical lines.
     
  18. Mr Bump

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    Nigel is right.

    And don't forget that PAL discs often lose things such as a DTS soundtrack due to the extra disc space needed for that extra resolution. I know I'd rather have DTS than a marginal resolution increase. I own lots of both PAL and NTSC discs and I have never really noticed any vast improvements in picture quality between the two on my projector. Yes, PAL may have a higher resolution on paper, but in the real world it's simply not noticeable.
     
  19. CKNA

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    I know what Nigel means. Still the number 480 or 576 represent vertical resolution as Mr.D pointed. That is all I was getting at.

    PAL discs require extra space not because slightly more resolution, but because they are encoded at 25fps instead of 24fps.
     
  20. CKNA

    CKNA
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    I know what Nigel means. Still the number 480 or 576 represent vertical resolution as Mr.D pointed out. That is all I was getting at.

    PAL discs require extra space not because slightly more resolution, but because they are encoded at 25fps instead of 24fps.
     
  21. LV426

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    And....as I was at pains to point out on a number of occasions, viz:

     
  22. Mr.D

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    The actual number of frames on each type of disc will be the same. There might be some need to encode pal at a higher bitrate to allow for the increased bandwidth for 25fps but I doubt it : the playback speed is probably a function of the decoder rather than anything to do with the rate on the disc. However I don't know for sure so I'll refrain from confidently saying you are talking tosh which I strongly suspect.

    I'd still say the only reason that PAL discs could require more space over their NTSC counterparts is resolution. I don't even like referring to dvds as being PAL or NTSC but its become the norm .
     
  23. LV426

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    Quite right. But it's probably easier and more comprehensible than something like 576 line 25fps vs. 480 line 30fps (or 24 fps).

    Quite right. For a given film, the number of frames on the disc is identical. It's the rate of playback that differs.
     
  24. Kane D Williams

    Kane D Williams
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    So I wonder if it's possible to slow the playback down so we can play PAL discs at 24FPS?

    The 4% can be noticed, especially with audio. a friend had watched a film on VHS many times and them when he watched the same movie (can't remember which) in NTSC (DVD), he thought there was something wrong with the disc as it sounded pitched down! If the mastering house care about their work, they should pitch correct the audio so it plays back as it should be. In some respects, 4% can make a large impact on a sound, for instance robbing some really low rumble moments of a little weight! I would assume that people with systems that don't go down very low (below 30Hz) may gain a little from higher pitched PAL film material!? BTW, some PAL discs will have been pitch corrected and it would be great if DVD comparrison sites looked at this aspect.
     
  25. CKNA

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    No, players do not speed up the 576/50Hz disc. It is done in mastering. Besides if you compare data of the same release for both types discs, with everything the same, you will notice that usually they are very close.

    The difference is insignifcant and during encoding you can make things to video so everything fits on the disc. If somebody told you that they dropped DTS from 576/50Hz disc due to video taking more space, then they are full of bs.

    The only time I see DTS dropped from 576/50Hz release is when there are multiple language tracks or licensing issues.
     
  26. Rimmer

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    WinDVD has a "PAL TruSpeed" option which restores PAL DVDs to the correct speed. Unfortunately, it slows down ALL PAL material irrespective of the source, so sometimes people sound like they're on mogadon. I agree that it would be better if PAL DVDs were pitch corrected, but it's very rarely done, and some people complain that pitch-correction degrades the sound quality.
     
  27. Mr.D

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    Whoa now I know you're smoking crack son. I am well aware of the differences between a PAL and NTSC master.

    You've completely missed the point about what I'm talking about. Encoding rates are a seperate issue no one here is discussing the differences in encoding necessitated by the differences between the two formats.
     
  28. CKNA

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    Yeah, whatever. You believe what you want. I am not going to get drawn into pointless discussion. Go ahead, watch your sped up PAL discs. I am going to watch my High Definition.
     
  29. Mr.D

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    I'll continue to watch all three thanks.
     
  30. Gliese 581c

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    I bet you wished you never asked now smartiepants. :laugh:
     

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