PAL aerial feed to NTSC/ATSC tuner

grahamlthompson

Distinguished Member
There are no "official" soarsat boxes. Just use a general satellite S2 box or possibily a Freesat HD box in non Freesat mode.

See the post above this. I never said there was an official box, What I meant was I have no idea what kit the OP would be using to get Saorsat or it's capability in being able to be controlled from a remote locatiion. I acknowledged above that if a Humax box was used the remote scheduling capability of some Humax boxes can be used as a wireless remote control.

Should a advanced enigma 2 based box be used I imagine remote control of it would not be a issue,
 

ciarantwomey

Novice Member
A digital modulator requires a HDMI source. It creates a DVB-T HD single channel multiplex using the UHF carrier you tell it to use. You have a choice of 21 - 68. It adds this channel to any input from an aerial connected to rf in. The channel you choose must be different to any that your local transmitter uses, If it's too close then they will interfere with each other. No UK transmitter uses channel 68. The channels from a UHF aerial are output plus the one created by the modulator are output from the rf out socket. The output from the first modulator connects to the second modulator rf in, The second modulator requires an HDMI input and a channel different to any others introduced by modulator 1.

So lets say you use modulator 2 to connect to the saorsat box HDMI out and set it to use channel 68.. This modulatator now has a single channel DVB-T HD Mux that is output from rf out. A DVB-T2 tuner can tune into this by manually tuning to UHF 68.

Now take modulator 1 and connect the Freesat HDM out to the Modulator in ( You can use a HDMI spliitter to feed the local TV if it does not have a HDMI out loop)

If you have a terrestrial aerial recieving DVB-T/T2 connect this to Mod 1 rf in, Choose a channel not used by your local transmiitter. eg 66 connect md1 rf out to mod 2 rf in. Connect mod 2 rf out to the distribution system used to feed the other TV.s

The cable feeding the other TV's now has all the channels you can get from your local transmiiter in the standard multichannel multiplexes it uses Plus two extra single channel DVB-T multiplexes on channel 68 and 66 (if you chose 66).

If no aerial in the system you manually tune the FTA box to channel 68 (saorsat) and to Channel 66 (Freesat).

Note these moduators cannot handle Dolby Digital audio so both source boxes will settings changed to output Stereo PCM audio. Not familiar with a Saorsat box, The UK Freesat box will have this in the TV settings menu. Digital audio out needs to be set to stereo rather than surround.

You may have to experiment with the choice of carrier channels if you have an aerial in the system.

Thanks for the detailed reply - Can I clarify one or two points - apologies and thanks again for your patience

In your post above you appear to be talking about two DVB-S signal (Saorsat and Freesat) however in Ireland we have two services that offer FTA services Saorview DVB-T (equivalent of Freeview) and Saorsat DVB-S (equivalent of Free Sat)

My idea would be to take a Saorview signal (DVB-T) and Freesat signal, convert the Freesat signal to DVB-T and then use a UHF diplexer ( Fringe UHF Diplexer 3740 Combines 2 UHF Aerials into a Single Cable ) to combine these into a single coax to feed the OTA tuner I referenced - will the dixplexer do the job?

Secondly you mentioned that I need two modulators - Can I get away with one modulator given Im just converting the Freesat signal to DVB-T. So I take the hdmi out of a freesat box and feed it into the "hdmi in" in a modulator and then the "rf out" of the modulator. Below is a cheap modulator I found on ebay. Do you reckon this will do the job?


Just on the modulator what's the purpose of the "Rf in" port if Im using the "hdmi in" to covert the signal?

Lastly you noted that the modulator will put the freesat stations on one channel - how then will the OTA be able to scan/ detect all the various different tv stations if they are coming in on the one channel via the modulator?

Thanks again!
 

Monster900

Active Member
I use a Technomate TM-RF HD IR to convert the HDMI output from my Freesat box to DVB-T to send it via coax to other devices / TVs around the house on a single channel number (default LCN 800). With the right combination of splitters or combiners I think it would do what you want.

There are similar units made by other companies as well but at the time of purchase this was the best value.

I don't know if you missed my post above, but the TM-RF HD has an RF pass through, so in my set up the terrestrial signal from the aerial passes through the modulator unchanged and the HDMI output from the satellite box is converted to a DVB-T signal with a channel number (default 800).

This means the modulator output carries all the terrestrial channels received through the aerial and the output from the satellite box on channel 800. A TV sees the satellite box as just another DVB-T channel, no manual switching required.

The example you have posted may work but it does seem very cheap compared to the well known brands. I did consider buying one but decided to pay the extra and go with the Technomate.
 

ciarantwomey

Novice Member
I don't know if you missed my post above, but the TM-RF HD has an RF pass through, so in my set up the terrestrial signal from the aerial passes through the modulator unchanged and the HDMI output from the satellite box is converted to a DVB-T signal with a channel number (default 800).

This means the modulator output carries all the terrestrial channels received through the aerial and the output from the satellite box on channel 800. A TV sees the satellite box as just another DVB-T channel, no manual switching required.

The example you have posted too may work but it does seem very cheap compared to the well known brands. I did consider buying one but decided to pay the extra and go with the Technomate.


Thank you for the above.

This may seem basic but if you use the above modulator (or ebay one) and the output is broadcasting on one frequency how then does the tuner (may be it a tv or the hdhomerun in my example) pick up all the tv stations if they are on the one frequency?

This is probably a novice question - I know

There is quite a difference between the modulator you posted and the ebay one. If I knew I could get the system to work it might be buying the modulator you referenced.
 

Monster900

Active Member
I'm not clear how digital Muxing works but for example, where I live the main terrestrial HD services BBC1 HD, BBC2 HD, ITV HD, C4 HD and C5 HD are all on channel 46. Again where I live, none of the TV services are on a channel number higher channel 50. I have set the modulated output to be on channel 56 so when tuning channel 56 on the TV it picks up a TV service ('channel') called 'TM-RF HD' and allocated it a logical Channel number (LCN) which by default 800.

I believe that a lot of confusion arises because we all remember, in the analogue age, single channels or, as they are now called, 'services' being on a single frequency. In the digital age many services can be broadcast on the same frequency with one channel number.

Hope this helps, I think I may have overcomplicated things.
 
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grahamlthompson

Distinguished Member
Thanks for the detailed reply - Can I clarify one or two points - apologies and thanks again for your patience

In your post above you appear to be talking about two DVB-S signal (Saorsat and Freesat) however in Ireland we have two services that offer FTA services Saorview DVB-T (equivalent of Freeview) and Saorsat DVB-S (equivalent of Free Sat)

My idea would be to take a Saorview signal (DVB-T) and Freesat signal, convert the Freesat signal to DVB-T and then use a UHF diplexer ( Fringe UHF Diplexer 3740 Combines 2 UHF Aerials into a Single Cable ) to combine these into a single coax to feed the OTA tuner I referenced - will the dixplexer do the job?

Secondly you mentioned that I need two modulators - Can I get away with one modulator given Im just converting the Freesat signal to DVB-T. So I take the hdmi out of a freesat box and feed it into the "hdmi in" in a modulator and then the "rf out" of the modulator. Below is a cheap modulator I found on ebay. Do you reckon this will do the job?


Just on the modulator what's the purpose of the "Rf in" port if Im using the "hdmi in" to covert the signal?

Lastly you noted that the modulator will put the freesat stations on one channel - how then will the OTA be able to scan/ detect all the various different tv stations if they are coming in on the one channel via the modulator?

Thanks again!

The rf in port allows you to input suitable signals to be passed on to the rf out socket together with the extra single channel multiplex that the modulator creates. For instance terrestrial TV from a UHF aerial

However why not use two satellite receivers. Soarsat uses a special lnb that restricts reception to Southern Ireland and possibly locations in Northern Ireland close to the border.

Freesat however should be usable across Ireland.


The modulator linked only mentions PAL which is analogue. You have not got a PAL signal from any available source. Avoud it like the plague. Zero technical support.


I think there is a much more elegant solution. You can get boxes running the android based enigma 2 software with multiple tuners that also record to a hard drive, For all 3 you would need two DVB-S2 tuners and one DVB-T2 tuner. This will feed the local TV using a hdmi cable.

They also have a DLNA server that can be accessed by most smart TV's and some Freesat + pvrs.

This uses your home network.

Vbox have similar kit.

You would need two dishes. One with a KA band saorsat lnb. The other with a SCR lnb and a dish aligned on 28.2E.

If you want to use the existing coax. then a 3 input HDMI switch with remote control would allow you to use a single modulator like this one.


This one has infra red return so you can control remote infra red kit like the 3 boxes and the HDMI switch. and had hdmi loop out to feed the local TV would seem to be ideal.

Amazon product
If you don't want want view the recordings remotely you dot need the DVB-T2 tuner. All Freeview-HD kit allready has at least one. All you need to do is connect the aerial the the modulator rf in socket.
 

grahamlthompson

Distinguished Member
I'm not clear how digital Muxing works but for example, where I live the main terrestrial HD services BBC1 HD, BBC2 HD, ITV HD, C4 HD and C5 HD are all on channel 46. Again where I live, none of the TV services are on a channel number higher channel 50. I have set the modulated output to be on channel 56 so when tuning channel 56 on the TV it picks up a TV service ('channel') called 'TM-RF HD' and allocated it a logical Channel number (LCN) which by default 800.

I believe that a lot of confusion arises because we all remember, in the analogue age, single channels or, as they are now called, 'services' being on a single frequency. In the digital age many services can be broadcast on the same frequency with one channel number.

Hope this helps, I think I may have overcomplicated things.

It's not that hard. A wireless signal requires a high frequency carrier signal and an aerial tuned to collect signals in the band used. It sends them all down the coax to the receiving kit. It's a pure sine wave. To get it to carry TV radio or any other data. You have to alter (modulate) the sine wave in some way to represent the data you want to carry. Formerly the UHF band in the UK used UHF 21 - 68 for the carriers. The government have sold the higher numbers for other uses.


Pal being analogue uses analogue modulation to vary the carrier. The tuner regenerates the original carrier and subtracts it from the incoming signal leaving the Phase Alternate Line TV signal.

However only one TV channel per carrier.

Digital TV uses the same UHF carriers and the same tuned aerials. That's why there is no such thing as a digital aerial. It's a con used to persuade consumers to replace aerials perfectly capable of digital reception.

The carrier though is modulated with a digital source (a stream of zeros and ones). One demodulated by a DVB tuner you left are left with the stream of zeros and ones. A hard disk is designed to record just such a stream. A PVR simply copies this stream as is to a hard disk.

No tuner is required to playback these recordings, the tuner was only needed to extract the data from the live broadcast. This is how you can pause live TV,

Each Carrier has a maximum capacity depending on the modulation system. DVB-T2 has a larger capacity than DVB-T. Hence the reason DVB-T2 is used for Freeview-HD.

Additionally two video compression codecs are used for UK TV. mpeg2 for SD and the much more efficient H264/AVC for HD. 4K sources use the even more efficient H265/HEVC.

The higher the bitrate The speed the zeros and ones are delivered the higher the quality, But of course the lower the number of digtal channels you can carry on a single carrier.

The broadcasters use a few tricks to squeeze more channels into a single mux (multiplex)

Fast action requires a higher biitrate before the lossy compression used starts to show motion artefacts. So the broadcasters use a variable bitrate and analyse all the channels on a mux and in a process known as stat muxing share this out giving the soccer the highest rates
:)
 
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winston2010

Well-known Member
Thanks for the detailed reply - Can I clarify one or two points - apologies and thanks again for your patience

In your post above you appear to be talking about two DVB-S signal (Saorsat and Freesat) however in Ireland we have two services that offer FTA services Saorview DVB-T (equivalent of Freeview) and Saorsat DVB-S (equivalent of Free Sat)

My idea would be to take a Saorview signal (DVB-T) and Freesat signal, convert the Freesat signal to DVB-T and then use a UHF diplexer ( Fringe UHF Diplexer 3740 Combines 2 UHF Aerials into a Single Cable ) to combine these into a single coax to feed the OTA tuner I referenced - will the dixplexer do the job?

Secondly you mentioned that I need two modulators - Can I get away with one modulator given Im just converting the Freesat signal to DVB-T. So I take the hdmi out of a freesat box and feed it into the "hdmi in" in a modulator and then the "rf out" of the modulator. Below is a cheap modulator I found on ebay. Do you reckon this will do the job?


Just on the modulator what's the purpose of the "Rf in" port if Im using the "hdmi in" to covert the signal?

Lastly you noted that the modulator will put the freesat stations on one channel - how then will the OTA be able to scan/ detect all the various different tv stations if they are coming in on the one channel via the modulator?

Thanks again!

That modulator is an analogue modulator not digital. It not convert to DVB-T.

The RF in port is to connect your aerial to to pass the Saorview channels. A diplexer is not needed.

Regarding all Freesat stations on one channel. This is true but only one can be accessed at a time, the one the Freesat box is tuned to at that moment.
 

grahamlthompson

Distinguished Member
That modulator is an analogue modulator not digital. It not convert to DVB-T.

The RF in port is to connect your aerial to to pass the Saorview channels. A diplexer is not needed.

Regarding all Freesat stations on one channel. This is true but only one can be accessed at a time, the one the Freesat box is tuned to at that moment.


Not quite true. The Humax single tuner HB models can handle two channels on the same transponder at the same time. Eg If in England watch BBC2-HD while recording BBC 1 HD.

And of course a twin tuner box can record/view any two at the same time.
 
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winston2010

Well-known Member
Not quite true. The Humax single tuner HB models can handle two channels on the same transponder at the same time. Eg If in England watch BBC2-HD while recording BBC 1 HD.

And of course a twin tuner box can record/view any two at the same time.

I was referring to the output of the HD modulator the OP wanted to get.
 

grahamlthompson

Distinguished Member

TJT1

Member
@ciarantwomey
I have been trying to follow this thread but have found it difficult but IMHO the clue to your problem is in post #1. You are considering buying/bought a box that is unsuitable (i.e. wont work) with either DVB T or DVB S.
This is exacerbated by your incorrect statement/assumption that "in the UK/Ireland we work off PAL". OK so let's look at ASTC.
Any suggestions where I can obtain an ATSC modulator in UK (or Europe)?
Johansson 8202 as I sugested in post 5.
And don't forget that you will need two of them, one for your T box and the other for your S box.

The modulators listed and referred to here (apart from the analogue one that you linked to) in the various replies, output a DVB T signal on a frequency set by the user which is a suitable input for any DVB T receiver or DVR and not PAL/NSTC or ATSC (US) systems.

I am assuming that you want to watch live TV from either the DVB T or DVB S box and record on either box with the facility of watching recorded programmes from either box. This of course may be entirely wrong as you haven't really said clearly what you are trying to achieve.
Two ways. (More might be suggested.)

Method 1.
You will need 2 x DVB T modulators set to different free RF channels (LCN).
Each will only output a single TV channel from the HDMI output of currently selected box and programme.
You can feed the DVB T aerial into the RF input of one mod and the RF output of that into the second and the RF output of the second to the TV. This will give you live DVB T/T2 TV on the TV's normal channel numbers.

The RF input of the DVT S box obviously goes to the dish input of the sat box.
The RF input of the DVB T box must be connected to the aerial possibly via a splitter depending on sig strength.

Now you will be able to record on either box.
Playback is achieved by playing back stuff on the required box and selecting the RF LCN associated with that box.

Method 2. Cheaper but might involve manual switching depending on the HDMI switch.
You will need 1 x DVB T modulators set to a free RF channel (LCN).
An HDMI switch, switching between the DVB T and DVB S box's HDMI outputs
It will only output a single TV channel from the currently selected box and programme.
You can feed the output of the DVB T aerial into the RF input and the RF output to the TV. This will give you live DVB T/T2 TV on the TV's normal channel numbers.
The RF input of the DVT S box obviously goes to the dish input of the sat box.
The RF input of the DVB T box must be connected to the aerial possibly via a splitter depending on sig strength.

Now you will be able to record on either box.
Playback is achieved by playing back stuff on the required box and selecting the HDMI input to the modulator that is associated with the chosen box box.

The analogue modulator that you linked to above, will only give you an SD (analogue PAL) signal at its output which seems to also unsuitable for an ATSC box as you have inferred at Post #1 and only UK TV's that have a PAL tuner.
 

grahamlthompson

Distinguished Member
I was referring to the output of the HD modulator the OP wanted to get.

If the OP switches the input to a Freesat box. The OP can watch any channel the box is capable of viewing/recording. It's all on the same carrier only the modulation source needs to be changed.
 

grahamlthompson

Distinguished Member
A message to the OP. It matters not a jot what box or service it uses provided it has a hdmi output that can be viewed on a local TV. Saorsat, Freeview etc,

If you connect it to the modulator the pictures and audio can be viewed on all the remote TVS that are tuned can watch the output of any box on a single channel on all the remote TV's.

The trick is simple you need to change the HDMI source to the single digital modullator,

Lets suppose you have lots of kit with a hdmi output, All connected to your local TV on different HDMI inputs. Box, and you use the modulator with HDMI loop through.

1 A Blu-ray player

2 A saorsat box

4 Another box Could be a enigma 2 box with Freesat and terrestrial digital tuners.

5 yet another box

You can say get a 6 input HDMI switch with remote control that can change the modulating input to any of 6 inputs. The local TV can still use any of them independently of the remote TV's

All you have to do is use the local TV HDMI port selection to view what you want locally.. To view another source remotely simply switch the hdmi switch to the remote source you want to watch.

1 blu-ray player

2 Saorsat box etc

How much more flexibility do you want ?
 

TJT1

Member
You are right as usual GLT.
Trouble has been that OP has given us his 'solution' but not really described his 'problem' (What he wants to achuieve)

@OP what exactly are you trying to achieve? Watching two sources (T and S) on a single box? Or creating a distribution system? Or what?
 

ciarantwomey

Novice Member
Thank you for the replies

apologies- I thought I had been clear with what I wanted to achieve and I did not want to sound repetitive

I want to purchase a hd homerun Quattro tuner (I originally not my preference for a fire tv recast but as thia currently only available in North America / ATSC then I think that’s out of the question)

my intention. Is to use plex pass in conjunction with hd homerun to act as a dvr

hdhomerun has dvb-t tuner. I wish to feed the hdhomerun with a combined dvb-t single source feed from a saorview Terrestial aerial (dvb-t) and a sat/ freesat signal from a dish - for this purpose please just assume the signal are only to feed the hdhomerun , not to be looped into other tvs

if I understand correctly my best option is to buy a combo saorview / freesat box which has a dual (dvb-s /dvb-t) tuner and then purchase a hdmi modulator (Technomate TM-RF HD IR HDMI Modulator - appears to be the oneposters suggest , albeit expensive) - take the hdmi signal out of combo box into modulator ,RF coax out of modulator and into thehdhomerun as a dvb-t signal broadcasting on a single channel

above is my understanding of what’s required - essentially I want UK&Ire FTA channels with dvr on all tvs in the house and it has to be on a pretty basic UI / setup as other family members struggle to use sky features so cant be overly complex

Thxs all
 

winston2010

Well-known Member
OK. There are no combo saorview/Freesat boxes however. All combo boxes are generic DVB-T/T2/free to air satellite. i.e. no special EPG. Also seems pretty pointless to convert saorview to DVB-T as it is already in that form straight from an aerial.
 

ciarantwomey

Novice Member
OK. There are no combo saorview/Freesat boxes however. All combo boxes are generic DVB-T/T2/free to air satellite. i.e. no special EPG. Also seems pretty pointless to convert saorview to DVB-T as it is already in that form straight from an aerial.

Agreed on both points - I don’t think it matters whether the box is branded / generic. As noted in a previous post I had intended taking the saorview / Terrestial feed directly into the modulator via RF in & freesat via the hdmi in but I thought someone advised not to

with respect to freesat box, I don’t plan on using a humax- just a bog standard freesat box with hdmi out (epg etc will be provided by hdhomerun and / or plex)
 

logiciel

Moderator
There are no bog standard freesat boxes.
 

grahamlthompson

Distinguished Member
Agreed on both points - I don’t think it matters whether the box is branded / generic. As noted in a previous post I had intended taking the saorview / Terrestial feed directly into the modulator via RF in & freesat via the hdmi in but I thought someone advised not to

with respect to freesat box, I don’t plan on using a humax- just a bog standard freesat box with hdmi out (epg etc will be provided by hdhomerun and / or plex)

The epg will be provided by the source Freesat box. The Homerun is just showing you it's output.

I can't see the point of this box. Only the source boxes can record given a recording capability.

Why not just add a Enigma 2 multituner box as an input for FTA satellite content. It has a IP delivered epg for Freesat. You will need a dish on 28.2E with a scr lnb.


 

ciarantwomey

Novice Member
I think your solution of using the engima2 box and a terrestrial tuner and stream to kodi via tvheadend is possibly the correct way for me to go - been slammed past couple of months and haven’t made progress on getting my system setup- just getting back to it now

thanks for sending on the boxes on world of sat . Would appreciate it if you wouldn’t mind clarifying a couple of points (know very little about this Currently- need to find some instructions/ novice guide )

as noted earlier in thread I ultimately wants to be able to view (record would be nice also) terrestrial (Irish ) and freesat channels (Uk - bbc etc) on multiple TVs via fire tv devices , so plan is to use tvheadendin kodi

if I purchase an engima2 box does it matter what firmware it’s flashed with (I see openvix, open pli & others)?

secondly if I get a twin tuner box (1x dvb-s , 1 xdvb-t) I presume multiple devices can use simultaneously but you have too be watching the one/same channel on either the terrestrial or sat feed

thanks again
 

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