P.E.V/P.E.T The 'Personal Electric Vehicle/Transport' Thread.

Tempest

Distinguished Member
Given how the modern world is changing, COP26 coming to a close, and the need to reduce emissions, and excessive usage of many thing.
I thought it might be a good idea to have a single place where News, Laws, Experiences, Updates, Purchases, Viewpoints could be shared with regards to current and upcoming personal methods of transport powered by electricity.

These small electric transport devices seem to be referred to under two similar names:
PEV Personal Electric Vehicle
PET Personal Electric Transport

I may be lucky in that, whilst seeing a very limited amount of them being ridden both on pathways and roads, by people ranging from teenagers to adults, I've only ever seen then being ridden very sensibly at low/medium speeds. I've not myself experienced the dangerous antics others have said they have unfortunately encountered.

I shall admit, as a general personal viewpoint, I am not a fan of banning a whole group of products or pastimes and the reason given is that 'there are a few idiots who abuse whatever it is'

If we went down that route we'd have no car ownership, no motorcycles, no dog ownership and many many others things we consider as normal these days.
No. we put laws/rules into place to set standards we expect people to adhere to and punishments for those who break/abuse the agreed upon rules.

Someone using a device in a manner which does not endanger others or themselves (within reason) should be acceptable I feel. And yes, I am willing to say that I accept some level of risk. That's what we humans to every day. Thousands are hurt/killed whilst using current forms of transport but we accept it.

Some have expressed the opinion that it's not 100% about safety as perhaps the tax man would not be super happy with many short distance commuters using some personal electric transport instead of jumping into their dinosaur burning 2 ton metal box to travel the 4 miles twice a day.

Anyway, it seems to be a heated topic right now, so perhaps we can use this thread to pull news and views into one place?



Personally I feel given the massive amount of these being purchased, other countries legalising them (within certain rules) and the talk about zero emissions and wanting people to drop using cars, not to mention congestion (1 person in a large car) it's only a matter of time before they are legal in the UK also

Finally..... I've managed to find the following about rules in a few other countries.

***********************************************************************************************************

Germany

The maximum speed limit is 20kph
Helmets are compulsory when travelling above 20kph
Insurance and insurance plates are compulsory
Cycle paths must be available for riding an electric scooter on a public road
Engine power is restricted to 500watts
Electric vehicles must be vetted as road worthy

USA, California

Wearing of a helmet is compulsory for certain states.
The maximum speed limit is 15mph in certain states.
Riding in a bike lane is only allowed in streets with speed limit above 25mph
Riding an electric scooter in the street means that you must ride as close to the curb on the right side as possible
Suitable electric scooters for use in USA: EMOVE Cruiser, EMOVE Touring, EMOVE 2.0 and the ORCA Mark I.

UK

In the UK, electric scooters are better known as electrically assisted pedal cycles (EAPC). The laws which govern them include:

An EAPC is required to have a pedal propelling it.
The EAPC must be able to show either the manufacturer of the motor or the power output of the engine.
The EAPC must also be able to show, either the maximum speed of the bike or the voltage of the battery of the bike
The EAPC can only be used on public roads where there are cycle paths, or on streets with bike lanes.
Australia and New Zealand

Children between the age of 12 and 16 can only ride with parental supervision
A license is not required for operating an electric scooter
Unsupervised rides are allowed from aged 16 and above
The maximum speed limit is 25mph
Rides on electric scooters are only allowed on paths
Electric scooter rides are not allowed on public roads or bicycle lanes

Singapore

Riders need to register their electric scooter with the local transportation authority government
Registrants have to be at least 16 years old
Registered electric scooters must be compliant with the device criteria (Device weighs < 20kg | 70cm in maximum width | 25km/hour in maximum motorised device speed)
Requires a registration mark sticker on their electric scooter
$2,000 fine/imprisonment up to 3 months for unregistered electric scooters
UL2272 Standard certification required for all electric scooters used in Singapore.

France

The maximum speed limit of 25kph with a fine if exceeded
Electric scooters cannot be ridden on pavements
Headphones are prohibited while riding
Electric scooters must be road worthy
Riders are legal from the ages of 8 upwards
A helmet is required for riders below the ages of 12
 

Miss Mandy

Moderator
Not sure where you’ve got your info from, but some of the UK stuff is wrong.
Electric scooters are not known as EPAC vehicles, they’re known as escooters. Epac’s and escooters are two different things.
Escooters are known as powered vehicles so unless part of a specific rental trial it is illegal to use them on footpaths and cycle lanes. They are also not able to be ridden on roads legally as they would need insurance and MOT which are impossible to get. As it stands the only legal places to use privately owned escooters is on privately owned property.

I personally agree with that, but I think the horse has bolted now and it’s inevitable everywhere will become overrun with them. Rather than allow everyone a free for all I would accept them being permitted for road use only. This should come with stipulations though like the escooters must have regular safety checks, helmets and lights should be compulsory and insurance should be a legal requirement. They’re the same rules I think cyclists should have incidentally.
 

springtide

Distinguished Member
The horse has truly bolted as although in Bristol they can be legally rented, almost every teenager has a private scooter and ride it on the road/cycle lanes.

My son is one of them and although I wasn’t very happy about it, have accepted it now. But the roads here run slow, and I typically get an average speed of 10mph or below in the car.

The Police ignore them unless try are being ridden dangerously, So although they are illegal, they are accepted and would be better to put a bit of legislation.

Even the rentals will only go 15mph, so you can cycle faster than them, and even more odd, E-bikes are legal.

Regarding helmets, although I always wear one they should never be made compulsory.. no one is going to walk around with a helmet all day just in case they decide to rent a bike or scooter.
 

nvingo

Distinguished Member
The town where I work doesn't have a rental scheme, I work nightshift and around 19.45 on my way I saw (!) an escooter rider on the unlit road ahead - the obligatory dark hooded clothing and no rear-facing lights or reflectors.
Passed it and there was a forward-facing bright white light, but obviously not concerned that someone might run into the back of him.
even more odd, E-bikes are legal.
There has long been a framework for pedal cycles with power assistance - rider 14+ and assisted speed <15mph.
 

stiv674

Distinguished Member
There are two types of e-bikes, Pedelec and S-pedelec, most of the ones you'll see in the UK are Pedelec's which will only assist you up to 15.5mph.
S-pedelec are up to 28mph and they require insurance, tax etc.

Although some people will use either illegally, modify the restricted ones or just ride the faster ones without insurance etc.
 

springtide

Distinguished Member
The town where I work doesn't have a rental scheme, I work nightshift and around 19.45 on my way I saw (!) an escooter rider on the unlit road ahead - the obligatory dark hooded clothing and no rear-facing lights or reflectors.
Passed it and there was a forward-facing bright white light, but obviously not concerned that someone might run into the back of him.

There has long been a framework for pedal cycles with power assistance - rider 14+ and assisted speed <15mph.
I completely agree with you about lights for anything on the road at night.
It’s the same with cycles were people think a tiny LED is enough to be seen.

I’m not against e-Bikes, it was more about when they did the e-bike legislation they should have thought about scooters at the same time.

They have become so mainstream, even your local Halfords stocks them.

You have to be 18 to rent an escooter, but only 16 to ride a 50cc bike, and only 17 to drive a car.
 

Tempest

Distinguished Member
Interesting replies and thanks for the correction/clarification on the UK classification of these devices.
Given the UK's green mandate? and emissions, congestion etc being a talked about priority, it does seem a shame that the UK is not doing all it can to lead the way as opposed to seeming to drag it's heels.

A few items:

I think most people are generally happy with most laws, when the punishment fits the crime.
There normally is a reasonable balance between doing something against the rules, and how much trouble you get in.
I do feel in this instance the punishment for an electric scooter is way beyond the crime (if you wish to call it that)
Sensibly riding a low power electric scooter along the road, if the police officer is having a bad day, can have the scooter taken away from you. 6 points on your driving licence and a £300 fine.
Now. I fully understand the law is the law, but that does feel disproportionate to the crime committed.
Just a personal viewpoint of course.

And please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've seen multiple articles which say that using an e-scooter on the footpath (and an unhappy policeman!) will land you a much less of a penalty than being on the road with it, which seems a bit daft.
 

collincn

Standard Member
Regarding helmets, although I always wear one they should never be made compulsory.. no one is going to walk around with a helmet all day just in case they decide to rent a bike or scooter.
Here in Nottingham the rental scooters each have a helmet attached.
I've not seen anyone wearing one, but they are there at least
 

springtide

Distinguished Member
Here in Nottingham the rental scooters each have a helmet attached.
I've not seen anyone wearing one, but they are there at least
It’s would be grim wearing a shared helmet so not surprised they are not worn. And how would you know it was safe?

But let’s not get into the big cycling helmet debate, we will be here a long time and there is no conclusion. 😊
 
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Tempest

Distinguished Member
Good short video about where we are and how daft? the current law/punishment is:

 

Johnmcl7

Distinguished Member
And please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've seen multiple articles which say that using an e-scooter on the footpath (and an unhappy policeman!) will land you a much less of a penalty than being on the road with it, which seems a bit daft.
That's not correct and it's the other way round, the penalty is higher for riding on the pavement which is a separate offence so if you were riding an illegal e-scooter on the pavement you would be charged for that in addition to the riding uninsured and other motor vehicle offences. You can see an actual example of such an offence on the following link where they were charged for a raft of offences including riding on the pavement:


The law is clearly a long way behind with e-scooters but I don't think it's a simple fix either, I assume in time we'll end up with rules similar to e-bikes but I don't think it's a straightforward issue. E-scooters are nowhere near as good on the road compared to a bike as the small wheels don't smooth any impact, they lack stability with the narrow bars and they have poor braking distances even compared to a basic rim brake, rigid bike never mind a more standard bike.
 

Tempest

Distinguished Member
^ Thanks for the clarification. The internet of course has many mixed messages.
Personally I wish we could use common sense.

Say I was going to work on my scooter at 7:30am, and the footpaths were totally clear, then it would seem find to ride along them at a sensible speed, keeping a lookout at all time of course.
If there were people walking and it was a narrow footpath, then the option may be to use the road, assuming it's empty, or get off and walk past them.
However, sadly I know, just because I might be sensible, that does not mean a law can be created based upon what I'd do.
And sadly, I COULD be riding very sensibly, and still get hit with the same legal punishment that some idiot get's who daily endangers others :(

Personally I find the Bike/Scooter comparison a tricky one.
I can ride a bike far faster than a scooter. There is a lot more metal in front of me on a bike.
The extra danger I feel is more to the rider when it comes to a scooter, as you rightly say the small front wheel issue.

100% guarantee that if Pedal Cycles had not been invented, and someone came out with them now, they'd be just as illegal as scooters are now.
Cycle = no insurance, no indicators, no MOT, no helmet needed, can travel pretty fast, practically no age restriction.
The law just needs to catch up, as most agree.
They want people OUT of cars, so let's gets laws changed so people have modern green alternatives without being punished.
 

Johnmcl7

Distinguished Member
I don't think e-scooter riders should be using the pavements just as I don't think cyclists should either, I'm also not keen on shared cycle paths either because for any faster vehicles it's putting pedestrians at risk .

I don't agree about pedal cycles being just as illegal aside from anything else, most bikes have no motors so they'd never have the same issues as e-scooters to begin with, when e-bikes came along the rules were applied to them as needed just as it would have been with normal bikes if they needed rules.

I don't find the bike/scooter comparison difficult, even a poor bike is more stable with better control and braking than an e-scooter while many normal bikes with better tyres and brakes will have more significant advantages. The figures so far for e-scooter are that they are far more dangerous than bikes:

Research suggests they are 100 times more dangerous than bicycles, yet arrests and seizures by the authorities appear relatively uncommon. At least four people including Shakur Pinnock are now known to have died in accidents across the UK involving these new battery-powered scooters.


I certainly want to see more people out of cars but we already have a legal modern green alternative which is a pedal bike which they aren't just much safer but also improve health and fitness. Your posts suggest the only problem with e-scooters is the law but there's a lot more to it than that.

Your original post is missing the bold formatting on Australia and New Zealand which makes it look like the UK rules. The statement that electric scooters are known as electrically assisted pedal cycles (EAPC) is absolutely not true, there is no specific legal definition of an e-scooter in the UK so it's treated as a standard motor powered vehicle hence the stiff penalties for using one. E-bikes are defined in law, if it is pedal assisted (throttle only control is not allowed, limited to 15.5mph (25kph) and 250W then it is treated as a standard pedal bike but if these are all not complied with then it's a motor vehicle and has much tougher requirements.
 
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Miss Mandy

Moderator
^ Thanks for the clarification. The internet of course has many mixed messages.
Personally I wish we could use common sense.

Say I was going to work on my scooter at 7:30am, and the footpaths were totally clear, then it would seem find to ride along them at a sensible speed, keeping a lookout at all time of course.
If there were people walking and it was a narrow footpath, then the option may be to use the road, assuming it's empty, or get off and walk past them.
However, sadly I know, just because I might be sensible, that does not mean a law can be created based upon what I'd do.
And sadly, I COULD be riding very sensibly, and still get hit with the same legal punishment that some idiot get's who daily endangers others :(

The funny thing about common sense is it’s not actually that common. Everyone has their own interpretation of what’s sensible and safe so relying on common sense wouldn’t actually find a common ground.

The second part of this post shows that really because riding on pavements should never ever be considered safe and sensible. Its only takes someone stepping out of their front door or from behind a hedge or something to have an accident.
Scooters are hard enough to hear anyway so adding in that many pedestrians wear earphones means that the pedestrian becomes the person most at risk in the place on the carriage way that they should be safest on.
You think in this scenario you’re being sensible yet I think the exact opposite. You would deserve to get the same legal punishment that an idiot endangering others does because you’re also endangering others.
The only way legalising escooters can be considered if if they're permitted on the roads only, they must not be used on footpaths.
 

nvingo

Distinguished Member
many pedestrians wear earphones means that the pedestrian becomes the person most at risk
That's easy to mitigate. Pedestrians should shoulder some responsibility for their own safety.
 

Miss Mandy

Moderator
That's easy to mitigate. Pedestrians should shoulder some responsibility for their own safety.

Yes, to a certain degree they should, but they shouldn't have to worry about motorised vehicles on the footpath.
 

imightbewrong

Distinguished Member
One of the came past me from behind on the pavement the other day at frightening speed, with a big lad on. Didn't hear it coming. If I had stepped left at the wrong moment it would have been pretty nasty.
 

MaryWhitehouse

Well-known Member
Out in the countryside I’d love one to ride while the Mrs rides her horse, and get out in countryside more but the cost of entry is too high. The cheapest I can see that might not break in 10 seconds is over £2k! And yes I know it would be illegal.
 

springtide

Distinguished Member
Out in the countryside I’d love one to ride while the Mrs rides her horse, and get out in countryside more but the cost of entry is too high. The cheapest I can see that might not break in 10 seconds is over £2k! And yes I know it would be illegal.
You don’t need to spend £2k to get something that wont break in 2 mins.

£500 will get something fairly decent that will do the job… I assume you are not looking for one that will do 50mph and frighten the life out of you and everyone else!

I am not encouraging you to break the law, but these are popular around here, obviously to be ridden on private land:
 

Tempest

Distinguished Member
One of the came past me from behind on the pavement the other day at frightening speed, with a big lad on. Didn't hear it coming. If I had stepped left at the wrong moment it would have been pretty nasty.

You are 100% correct to be angry at someone using an electric scooter in this way.
Am in total agreement with you.
However, I would not aim this annoyance at the device.
There are idiots who ride/drive Manual/Electric bicycles, ICE/Electric Cars all day long, narrowly missing, injuring, and killing people every single day.
It's the person in charge of the device which is the No.1 reason for anything bad happening.

And IMHO there is no reason to single out and demonise something new due to idiots.

Someone coming from a place who knew nothing about laws and rules could view this image below and have no idea why the one in the middle is so illegal and currently (incorrectly?) seen as so dangerous by 'some' people, whilst the other 2 devices are at the same time seen as perfectly safe and legal:

Lime-bikes.jpg


If I had to choose, I'd rather be run into at 15mph by the device in the middle than the other two which have a lot more mass (metal) in them and would take a lot more time to stop and impart force upon a human body.
 

ashenfie

Well-known Member
The scooters all round us and hopefully banned soon. Kid with fake identity card are leading to young kids riding them and dumping them. Unlike the bikes you can dump them anywhere, no need for a bike rack. Further like the above picture, promoted by irresponsible companies without a helmet which is a requirement. No car company would be allow to run such ad's.
 

MaryWhitehouse

Well-known Member
You don’t need to spend £2k to get something that wont break in 2 mins.

£500 will get something fairly decent that will do the job… I assume you are not looking for one that will do 50mph and frighten the life out of you and everyone else!

I am not encouraging you to break the law, but these are popular around here, obviously to be ridden on private land:

Hi. I think that level with 100+ kilos of me on forest tracks and gravel ‘roads’ and stubble fields would give up very quickly unfortunately and it’s too much money to find out.
 

Tempest

Distinguished Member
The scooters all round us and hopefully banned soon. Kid with fake identity card are leading to young kids riding them and dumping them. Unlike the bikes you can dump them anywhere, no need for a bike rack. Further like the above picture, promoted by irresponsible companies without a helmet which is a requirement. No car company would be allow to run such ad's.

Again, 100% agree with you.
But I still feel your anger? is misdirected at the device as opposed to the person in control of the device.
I'm more than able to imagine a world where scooter have been around for decades and seen as normal devices everyone uses, and now some "reckless" companies started to sell these much larger and heavier metal devices and having anyone ride them at any speed and most people wanting them banned due to all the idiots operating them at crazy speeds, with no helmet, indicators, mirrors, insurance, age limits, or roadworthiness testing.
 

Tempest

Distinguished Member
Hi. I think that level with 100+ kilos of me on forest tracks and gravel ‘roads’ and stubble fields would give up very quickly unfortunately and it’s too much money to find out.
63fbae937e5ac9ff7c80c8c688973b34.png
 

Tempest

Distinguished Member
Just to keep an open and balanced mind ;)
Ban these dangerous things?

f591c692dc3ac088b8cafa46a0bda000.png
 

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