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Optoma RD50 & RD65

Discussion in 'TVs' started by Razor, Jan 5, 2005.

  1. Razor

    Razor
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    Has anyone heard any more information on the lack of NTSC/60Hz compatability on the RD50 or RD65?

    I contacted them by letter/email and followed up with a phone call 3 days later to see if they had recieved my corispondance, which they had.

    Optoma promised to contact me before the christmas break, but so far I have I have still to recieve a response either by phone or letter.

    I am trying to arrange a demo of an Iscan video processor to see if it eliminates the Juddering motion found only on NTSC/60Hz input.

    Has anyone tried a video processor with a RD50 or RD60.

    Your help is appreciated.
     
  2. Chris Gilbert

    Chris Gilbert
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    Given their relatively poor support, and that they're not going to fix the issue (or don't sound like they will), decided to send mine back, should be picked up tomorrow morning (well this morning now :).

    Oddly they've been much more responsive to me returning the set, than trying to find out why it can't do 60Hz. I think they've actually allocated a staff member to handle the returns.

    I just have to see how well I cope with my old 24" CRT, to see how long before I go for another set. Actually rather tempted by the new Sagem D45, but going to wait for reports, once bitten, twice shy...

    Shame, the set is fantastic for PAL, but I've too many R1 dvds and want to be able to play 60Hz games.

    Chris
     
  3. Razor

    Razor
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    I dont blame you for handing the Optoma back. Your right in saying that they dont seem to care about fixing the problem, I too feel that they would rather give you a refund than deal with the problem in hand.
    In this day and age it is madness that a producer of TV's/projectors cannot offer 60Hz playback, especially when their front projectors can do it as well as all the other manucfactures products.
    I only wish there was an alternative to the RD65, but as of yet there is not, otherwise I would return my set imediately.

    These forums mainly seem to have unhappy Optoma customers, returned Optoma sets , faulty sets (lip sync & powering off problems), problems with 60Hz playback and loads of prospective Sagem/Toshiba owners, which says it all for me.

    Not many people are buying the Optoma RD50 or RD65 and instead are steering clear of Optoma rear projection DLP's and going with other manufacturers. Which I can totally understand.

    Whilst it is true that the PAL picture are very good this is only half of the story.

    No manual, power leads or HDMI adapter.
    No PAL60, NTSC compatiblity.
    A usless techincal support where most of the time the customer knows more than the engineer.
    Inconsitant build quality with some sets suffering different faults.

    All in all I personally think that Optoma have got a white elephant on their hands and they dont seem bothered. They also seem to have lost a lot of customers both existing and potential.

    Shame you didnt try out the Iscan before you returned your set. (24' tv sounds painfull)
     
  4. Wij

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    Mine was finally collected today,I also had not heard anything from them since before christmas.
    I fired off a rather abrupt email yesterday evening stating I want it collected before the end of the week before I take further action,they phoned this morning and it was picked up this afternoon which just goes to show you how quick they can get it done if they really want to.

    I do have to say the lady who dealt with the return today is undoubtably the best person for the job and I recommend you ask to speak to her if you are returning the set to get it resolved quickly, Sandy heelan is her name.

    Anyway I have to say its unlikely I'll be trying out any other optoma goods for a very long time now I've had a taste of the customer support :)


    Wij
     
  5. Chris Gilbert

    Chris Gilbert
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    I'l live for a bit with the 24" TV. Actually fired it up with the new DVD player (2910) and worringly it looks alright, just small. While I can understand if you really want the 65" you'll have to persist, but I just feel for 2k I shouldn't need an external box to fix things. I'd actually hoped to get rid of as many boxes as possible, with all the inputs on the optoma.

    Anyway the money's gone on other toys now, new front 3 speakers, and a SVS PC Ultra :D

    I'll probably get another DLP RP at some point, but for now I'll wait for the market to mature a bit more (well as long as I can live with a screen 1/4 the size of the optoma...) The Sagem 45 is very tempting, but then I'll see what price the tosh 52 comes in at, but I suspect the tosh will be huge, given the speakers are fixed on.

    Yes, Sandy's the lady that dealt with me, she's actually optoma's logistic's manager, she's the one that posted me out a printed manual when I first got the set, actually very nice and gets things done.

    Worringly if I was after a front projector, I'd probably still consider optoma. Being in the software industry I've seen how big mistakes can happen.

    Certainly makes life interesting being on the bleeding edge of technology :)

    Chris
     
  6. Razor

    Razor
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    Hi Wij,

    Your right in saying that the only way to get action out of Optoma is by being very blunt and to the point. Otherwise you just get ignored.

    I wonder what Optoma are doing with all these returned sets?

    I asked this question to one of the Optomas staff. I couldnt really get a straight answer out of him. I asked him if they re-box the units and re-sell them, he reply was 'of course not, it wouldn't be right'. So where do all these hardly used faulty/unwanted tv's end up?

    Chris, The Denon 2910 doesnt sound right with a 24 inch tv.

    I can understand your feelings on not wanting to spend another £1000-£1200 on a video processor to cure the problem.

    If I were to get a front projector try the Infocus 7205 HD2+ (my father has one), amazing quality picture. It was this unit that made me look closer at DLP technollogy and all its benifits.
    In addition Infocus is one of Optomas biggest rivals and personally I think a better overal company, with a good technical support and products.

    Here is one of their new 61' and 50' DLP sets called thin tv only 6.8 inches deep on both sizes.

    http://www.infocushome.com/amer/eng/products/microdisplay/home.asp

    Unfortunately it's only availible in the US at the moment. (fingers crossed). :cool:
     
  7. Chris5

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    Generally, they end up as display models for demonstration, or sold cheaply to employees. I think it is also illegal to sell them as new
     
  8. Chris Gilbert

    Chris Gilbert
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    I know, it's a tad worrying to realise that the DVD player costs more than the TV, but the picture is still impressive. You'd not think a better DVD player would make a difference on a small screen but it does.

    I did get the 2910 to use with the RD50, I've kept it because there's nothing wrong with. And it did produce a very good picture on the RD50.

    The infocus sets look very good, but it looks like it's a much taller set, which makes it much harder to get a center speaker in the center below it. The RD50 was hard enough to get a center speaker in sensible spot. I also suspect that the 50" set will probably come in at more than 2000ukp, given it's 6000$ :eek:

    No idea what'll happen to the old tv, as Chris5 says it may get sent out as a demo set, possibly sold as b-stock, or even a guinea-pig for seeing if they can fix the 60->50Hz problem (although unlikely)

    Chris
     
  9. Razor

    Razor
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    The Denon 2910 is a very good player indeed, I was looking at the Denon 2910 & 3910 untill the 60Hz problem reared its head. That put a stop to that purchase, I will have to use the money to correct the juddering problem (thanks Optoma).

    The price of the Infocus 50 inch set is only $1000 less than the 61 inch which stands at $7000 (roughly £4000). Which is what I paid for my RD65 but yes your right it probably would be more expensive than the british 50' optoma or sagem set.

    I have all my speakers near my ceiling (BOSE AM15) so it isn't a problem for me.

    Chris 5 your right it is ilegal to resell second hand goods as new. I think Optoma's staff are going to have a set in every room. lol.

    Seriously though if my set was returned you could easily rebox it and sell it as new, there is not a scratch on it. Throw in a brand new remote, power lead and your done.
    Its either that or they lose a hell of a lot of money,

    a) 2 x visits (deliverly and collection)
    b) Discount to staff or company as secondhand goods (how much are they re-selling them for?)
    c) Staff to arrange rejected RD50/RD65 (Sandy I believe)

    Chris5 when are you recieving your Iscan?
     
  10. maidstoneman30s

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    Hi there guys,
    Just thought i'd read up on Optoma RD's, and really feel for you guys. I myself have looked at PLASMA for ages, considering this, considering that, reading up on this technology and that technology.

    I like to think that i am a carefull buyer, considering the pros and cons of every electrical item, price considerate, manufacturers well known for service, support, tech support etc etc.

    Not that i want to rub it in to you guys, but having read DLP forum for 3 months, the worst impressions i got were about Optoma and the RD50. So i looked at Sagem 50", didnt want DVi, prefer HDMI.
    HDCP was another issue for me too. Anyway, in short i bought the Tosh 46WM48P.

    After a lot of moaning about panning blur on the Tosh, i am in general very happy with the TOSH. Even more so, now that i have tried the Panasonic S97 HDMI player.

    If you guys ever get your refunds , please take a hint from me, and seriously consider the 46 or in the Spring, the 52" version.

    Im sure you all have your own likes and dislikes and wants and needs, but JUST to let you guys know, for the 1500 smackers im am well pleased.

    I just hope you guys get OPTOMA to get there fingers out and sort these issues for you. If they dont, I am sure that other manufacturers will overtake them, and loose customers like yourselves.

    Maidstoneman30s
     
  11. Razor

    Razor
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    Hi Maidstone,

    Thank you for your reply and sympathy. I too looked carefully at the pros and cons before buying the RD65. I visted the AV show in hammersmith and I spent a good 2 hours at Optomas head quaters before the set was released. Everything looked fine and the picture for a 65 inch or indeed any size was impressive. Its only when the RD65 was delivered and I played a region 1 disc did the juddering motion become apparent.
    It was only due to the difficult time I was experiancing with Optoma that I decided to send a few letters off to AV magazines and started to look at a few forums which is how I found this one.
    It was only then did I realise that I wasnt the only person experiancing these problems and how unhappy Optomas customers really were. If I had I wouldn't of evan considered a RD65 or any other Optoma product.
    I have seen the Toshiba 46 inch at the AV show this year and your right in saying that it produced a good picture, just not a big enough picture for me. My previous set was a 46 inch Philips rear pro, I had become acustomed to the size and wanted something bigger. There was nothing wrong with this set but the chance of having a 65' rear pro HD DLP set was so tempting.
    I am glad you are happy with your Toshiba set, overall it is a great package. Good looks, good pic, good price.

    I hope Optoma does pull their fingers out and resolve this problem asap, but in truth I dont think this will happen. It's a shame they dont read these forums as I think they would have a better grasp of how anoyed and fustrated their customers are.
    I will be contacting them today for an update. If I have any news I will post it here.
     
  12. Razor

    Razor
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    I have spoken to Optoma today and they have told me the following:

    The RD50 and RD65 are going to be tested with a different video processor on tuesday, they apparently have tried a few different video processors and havent been succesfull so far.

    They are also aware of the posts in this and other forums and it seems trade may be suffering as a result of the bad publicity.

    I still didn't recieve a reason why the RD range is suffering from non 60Hz compatibilty, all they said was they dont understand the technology so werent able to quote. Not really good enough I think.

    I then asked them how their H77 projector can display 50hz and 60Hz pictures, in addition to the Toshiba, Samsung, Sagem with no problems at all. No comment was given, again.

    They also mentioned how the RD range was tuned specialy for PAL viewing (This is also in their offical statement on the subject). I questioned this as the RD50 and RD65 can not display PAL60 correctly without the same juddering problem. Their reply was that the RD range was designed with current technology in mind and they hadn't heard of PAL60. I informed them that PAL60 has been around for years and is an output option on the current Xbox console which has been around for over 3 years now. It is also availible on many DVD players etc. A final reply was I am not an engineer so I can not comment. Again.

    So after a good 15 minutes on the phone I was no nearer to a solution than I was 6 weeks ago when I received the RD65.

    However they did promise to contact me on tuesday with their findings. :confused:
     
  13. LV426

    LV426
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    That one is easy.

    You can define a TV signal with three factors:

    Lines: 625 for PAL, 525 for NTSC. (576 and 480 respectively are used for picture)
    Frequency: 50hz for PAL, 60hz for NTSC.
    Colour carrier method for non-component signals - PAL or NTSC.

    So, NTSC is more properly 525/60/NTSC.
    PAL is more properly 625/50/PAL
    and, importantly, PAL60 is 525/60/PAL.

    The 60hz refresh rate of an NTSC signal (and possibly the 525 lines) is what these sets can't cope with. The colour carrier method is irrelevant for this purpose.

    On a PAL 60 signal, there are 525 lines, 60hz. Exactly the same as NTSC. Only the colour carrier (chrominance signal) differs. Hence these sets will have exactly the same difficulty with PAL60 as with pure NTSC.
     
  14. Chris5

    Chris5
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    The only problem with the optoma is that the DLP mechanism has been configured not to work with 60Hz, instead it has to do a frame rate conversion to 50Hz by dropping frames, hence the judder.
     
  15. philbam

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    Hi,
    I purchased the Opoma Rd50 at the end of November and can honestly say that this is the best picture I have ever encountered on any type of screen!!
    I bought a new DVD player, the rather expensive Arcam Diva 79 and connect this to the Optoma through a HDMI/DVI cable, the effect being awesome.
    This player beats any other on the market today,including those up to £3000.
    The difference in picture quality and sound(even on ordinary CD's)is dramatic, far exceeding the quality of my previous Pioneer 868.
    I am adding to the Optoma discussion because I think they are being rather harshly criticised over their product, which, on the whole, is unbeatable.
    I too have suffered regarding the NTSC problem,probably more than most, because I have a library of 525 region one discs,many of which I will have to change to Pal (region2) to get over the juddering problem, but consider that the set is so very,very exceptional that I am prepared to do this.
    Whilst on the subject certain region one discs are virtually imune to this problem(thankfully),namely Pitch Black and the Superbit version of the FIFTH ELEMENT,which is one of my favourite films, and only available in the region one format(superbit,that is).For some reason this film is 99% free of any juddering,why,I do not know.
    In conclusion, I would add that my contact with the Optoma service manager during this harrowing time has always been courteous and prompt, but unfortunately not with the actual result of fixing the problem. As said in the first paragraph I am pleased to carry on using the Optoma RD50 as I don't think there is a comparable TV on the market,especially for the outlay involved.Give Optoma a chance,I would recommend them to anyone who appreciates quality!!
     
  16. as

    as
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    how is the football on rd 50 is there any blurr
     
  17. Razor

    Razor
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    Philbam

    Whilst I agree the picture quality is very good and better than most plasmas and crt tv's. It doesnt excuse the fact that Optoma sold me this set as beign NTSC/60Hz compatible and it isn't. You say that you have over 500 region 1 dvd's arent you a little disapointed that all these disc's are not watchable, I know I am.
    The reason I and many others are fed up with Optoma is the fact that they dont seem to know what they are doing and they dont seem that bothered about the fault as it has been known for over 6 weeks now and still no fix. The staff are polite/curtious and so they should be, I wouldnt expect anything less. But all I ever hear from Optoma is that they are sorry or they dont have the technical knowledge to solve this problem. To be honest I'd rather they were rude and fixed the problem.

    As I have said in a post above I was on the phone for a good 15 minutes and still had not made any progress with Optoma. How long do we have to allow them to fix the fault, they are no closer now than they were 6 weeks ago.

    Also in response to Chris and LV426, your are absolutely right in what you say. Which means the RD50 and RD65 are not fully PAL compatible either as PAL60 works very similarly to NTSC. Which means that Optoma havent optomised (bit of a joke) the RD series for PAL, just PAL50.

    All in all I do like the Optomas picture quality on PAL50, but fiind the PAL60 and NTSC unwatchable, which for £4000 I think is not on. They also stated that the next generation of RD sets will be NTSC/60Hz compatible when ever that is. That is fine but what about those of us which have paid money for their RD sets, are we left to suffer? Its certainly looking that way.

    By the way Philbam I was looking at the Arcam 79/Denon 3910 before all this NTSC/60Hz compatiblity, but it looks like I will be spending that money on trying to eliminate the NTSC/60Hz fault by way of a HTPC (which is not ideal) or a video processor. Is the picture on the arcam really that different from the Pioneer 868? As my father has this machine which I have used on my RD65 and liked the picture.
    Also what if any region 1 dvd's arent too bad with the juddering issue, (Terminator 2 first release is terrible, evan the credits at the begining jump)
     
  18. LV426

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    PAL60 can't really be called "PAL" as it isn't a TV standard anywhere outside of Brasil. Anywhere else and it's really just a workround.

    Also, in fairness, from what I can gather, although they aren't seemingly solving the problem, what they do appear to be doing, is refunding peoples' money. Frankly, I don't think you can get fairer than that.
     
  19. Razor

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    My knowledge in the AV field is not as great as yours, but PAL60 is still PAL of sorts and it is avialble on consoles and may top dvd players in the british market.

    With reguards to refunds, yes its true Optoma are refunding people their money but what else can they do. I am no expert but are they not just following the laws of the land. In addition when a lot of people purchased these sets their advertising did state NTSC compatible and they were selling the RD50 and RD65 as such. I dont think they would refund your money if you purchased the set with knowledge of it NTSC incompatibility.

    To be honest I am gutted that I have found a 65 inch set which displays an excellant picture, but only on PAL50. I have always dreamed of having such a large set with a good display. At the end of 2003 I saw a 60 inch sony lcd set, it looked beautifull untill you switched it on. It was one of the worst pictures I have ever seen. So when I saw the RD65's picture I had to have one.

    I am a firm believer that nothing is impossible (well almost), it anoys me that all the other manufacturers can produce a DLP set the displays both 50Hz and 60Hz with no problem. In fact manufacturers have benn doing this for crt, front projectors, rear pro etc near on 15 years or more.

    Optoma havent evan come up with an external solution as of yet. It is 6 weeks on and they are still trying video processors, how many brands and models of processors are there? Are they trying them at a rate of 1 a month?

    All I want is Optoma to come up with an external solution to fix this major problem, only then would I be happy. After all if the people who designed the set cant fix it, doesnt install much confiidence. :(

    Has anyone tried a HTPC yet?
     
  20. philbam

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    Hi Razor,
    Yes, the Arcam Diva 79 is that much better, both on the picture and the sound. I have not come across a comparable player and would recommend it to anyone!!
    If I come across anymore region one dvd's that are Ok I will let you know(I agree that Terminator 2 is unwatchable).
    PhilBam
     
  21. Razor

    Razor
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    Thanks for the info Philbam, I have just finished reading the Arcam D79 review for the 4th time. Im sorely tempted.

    I am glad you said that about terminator 2, (Judder city)

    Has anyone tried any Hi-def stuff with the RD50 or RD65?
     
  22. St_ve

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    When i had my PC connected to try out HL2 using the DVI connection i selected
    1280 by 720 on my graphics card & in the game i selected 1280 by 720 & 16 by 9 aspect ratio & the picture was fantastic however only about 80 or 90% was showing for some reason, there was no trace of judder at all.
    I downloaded some Hi def material from http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/content_provider/film/contentshowcase.aspx
    the magic of flight 1081 version & the picture was not as good as i saw on the sagem in comet the picture was great but jerky could be to do with R1 ,thinking back on it i should have gone for the 720 download. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

    Only 80% of the screen was showing because i had not changed HD to PC go RD50 menu/settings/Data :oops:
     
  23. Razor

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    Hi St ve

    Cheers for reply, what graphics card do you have and did you set it to output at 49-50hz? Also I have heard of people using powerstrip to tweak the performance have you used this program, if so is it any good?

    1080 is ment to be a bit flickery around the edges. Is this what you mean?


    Cheers :)
     
  24. St_ve

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    Hi Razor
    My graphics card is a Radeon 800pro it has 9 diferent settings at 1280 by 720 ranging from 32bit 85 hertz to 256 colours 60 hertz no 50hertz setting some more options it has are:1152/864/32bit/47hertz interlaced :1024/768/32bit/43hertz interlaced :800/600/32bit/56hertz/47hertz interlaced
    the setting i used was 1280/720/60 hertz

    They are always bringing out new drivers i'm guessing that there might be a 1280/720 at 50hertz sometime on this card or perhaps on a newer card.
    Havent tried powerstrip
    the high def at 1080 was'nt flickery it seemed to keep slowing down & then speeding up again.
    If the new sagem45 has problems of its own & i decide to keep the RD50 i might look at a HTPC & powerstrip if i did i'd keep clear of the internet on it as windows is very bugy you'd have to run a firewall & antivirus software on it.
    It's very tempting though one box to play & burn DVDs as many hard drives as u want.All your music & photos one or two clicks away.The ability to play games on your 50" TV. I'm sure it's the way we'll all go sometime if they ever manage to make a PC reliable & so user friendly that even your Granny could use it maybe Apple will bring something out? :rolleyes:
     
  25. Razor

    Razor
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    It may be your processor that is slowing down your play back, what is it?

    I think power strip lets you adjust the output to what ever Hz you need.

    I have an x800xtpe and playing throuhg my lcd monitor i notice none of the slow down issues your are talking about on 1080i software. I have a amd 3400 and a gig of ram 400 mhz.
    I dont find i have any problems with my pc in terms of crashing. It has mcaffe anti virus, firewal etc and is regulary scaned for virus/spyware. I think your right about the future beign in HTPC's. Roll on Longhorn.
     
  26. St_ve

    St_ve
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    Doubt its the PC 3.5ghz 64 1gb ram a pair of Western Digital raptors(10,000rpm) in a striped array no viruses spyware trojans my PC is quick, slowdown only playing HiDef 1080 on the TVwhich i assume is suffering from the 60htz to Pal50 conversion.
    If i play it on the PC its ok.
    HTPCs are evolving fast i prob won't go down that route for at least a year
    even Currys are selling them now.
    Give it year & i bet there's going to be some tasty stuff to choose from maybe Xbox 2 400gb hardrive the present Xbox has a better DVD player than my old Limit box
    :rolleyes:
     
  27. Razor

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    Your right it aint your pc spec. I will be trying the RD65 with my pc this weekend. I will let you know how I get on with the 1080i.

    Your right about HTPCs selling every where, Bill gates dreams are conming true.... lol.

    It was about time though, long over due.
     
  28. Razor

    Razor
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    Hi everyone I have just recieved a message from the Production Manager at Optoma. Apparently they have been unsuccessful with yet another video scaller in removing the juddering motion from a 60Hz material. He didnt list what processor he used, just that it was a £1200 unit. Which means this could be an Iscan DVDO or a Lugamen. He also has promised to send me a list of units that they have tried and not worked.

    Its not looking good for Optoma owners, not at all. Arrrghhhhh
    :(
     
  29. Chris5

    Chris5
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    You should not build your hopes up Razor. Gordon has already said 60Hz - 50 Hz is a no,no. 48Hz might work but Optoma UK probably dont understand that film is 24 fps so have probably not tried any scaler at 48Hz.
     
  30. Razor

    Razor
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    Hi Chris

    Thanks for the post, I want to try my pc with the RD65 this weekend. Has any one any tips or advice to give regarding this 60hz problem. Do I set my card to output at 48 fps? I have a copy of power strip already installed but I have never used it before. My card is a ATI X800XT PE.

    Many thanks.
     

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