Answered Options to replace Marquee CRT with digital PJ

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by simon1967, Jul 7, 2019.

  1. simon1967

    simon1967
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    As part of my AV revamp, I’m looking to replace my Marquee Electrome CRT projector and DVDO iScan VP50 Scaler with a digital projector. I’m also using a Fiery box thing that does something with HDCP, so would like to do away with this as well as I only watch sky Q and Blu Rays now. I’m also looking to change my Denon AVC-A1SR amp to something that can be used to both scale and do the switching.

    Preferably with a 3D capability that can use the same 3D glasses as the Panasonic TV. We have a ceiling mounted 96” screen so would need to look good on this size. When I changed from plasma to my existing Panasonic EX750 TV, I was (and still am disappointed with the black levels). Since tweaking, it's better but I do miss the depth of my old plasma. Bearing this in mind and my disappointment in switching to LED tech, I’m happy to keep the CRT if people think it’s worth persevering with but at the moment, I just feel it’s too much faff.

    Happy to buy second hand and it doesn’t need to be the greatest in tech. Just something that doesn’t need constant tweaking.

    Thx
     
  2. ask4me2

    ask4me2
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    I think it will be a good idea to try out some of the later e-shift generations from JVC. These do have something "CRT" about them but do not have the full fade to black capability we know from using a CRT projector. When it comes to constant tweaking, I think none of the newer lamp valve projector need a lot of that, they need to be properly setup and calibrated, but other than that they are rather easy/boring compared to a High end CRT projector (that always can be tweaked in an endless loop and can start to become an obsession that is hard to know when to quit)
     
  3. simon1967

    simon1967
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    Many thanks for your response. Before the Marquee, I had (still have) a Barco Cine 7 which had a built in scaler. Do these new generation PJs take care of the scaling etc or do I still need to use the DVDO iScan scaler. This scaler is actually my biggest annoyance in my whole system because it’s just another box that needs tweaking / setting up.
     
  4. Stridsvognen

    Stridsvognen
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    Ill think you need to look at the JVC X500 and newer, The DVDO scalers are hopless outdated, and will be outperformed by most players and monitors.

    No standart CRT projector is actualy capable of comming properly out of black, so even with 20.000:1 on off contrast on a well calibrated JVC you will get better low level performance.

    Unless you have a good Marquee 9500 from 2003 to around 2007 with GT17 lenses, its not worth spending time and money on it at all, and even if you have the right Marquee it will cost a significant amount of money to make it really perform, + you need to know exactley how to setup magnetics.

    Your Denon AVC A1SR is one of the last decent surround recivers, you can get something wioth more features, but its unlikely to sound nearly as good, i would recommend keeping it and feed it SPDIF coax or toslink from your source devices, and run the HDMI directly to your projector, maybe get a OPPO player with HDMI in and coax SPDIF out and use that as a switcher for your 2nd source.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
  5. simon1967

    simon1967
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    I’m pretty sure that my Marquee is not the tweaked version and the idea of soldering resistors or changing lenses frankly fills me with dread.

    You’ve almost confirmed what I suspected - rather than soldier on with old / outdated tech, it’s time to update from scratch. Unfortunately, I’ve taken very little notice about AV over the past decade so I’m am completely in the dark when it comes to digital replacements. Where would be the best place to start reading up on all things digital? I just had a quick google on the JVC x500 you mentioned, and a huge number of alternatives popped up so it was a bit overwhelming.

    Best get studying
     
  6. simon1967

    simon1967
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    That’s very interesting as I was also looking at changing to the newer Denon 4Xxx / 6xxx models so I could is it as a switching device between my TV and (replacement) projector. If my scaler is binned, how does all this work if I do indeed keep the A1. I have no issues with the sound and I’m not dying to get the Atmos option so would be more than happy to keep it if I can get to a seamless switching and scaling alternative.

    Btw, your time and knowledge are much appreciated as I have sooooo many questions.
     
  7. Stridsvognen

    Stridsvognen
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    I run a OPPO 103D, and a Apple TV4, the apple TV is conected to the HDMI in on the OPPO, then i switch video source on the oppo, staying on the same input on my old Denon AVC A1D.

    I have a A1SE and A1SR, also the later A1XVA, had later Denon and NAD models, and in my opinion all the newer AV recivers sound absolutely horrible, underpowered, the development flipped around the AVC A1SR, i prefer the AVC A1D, and the AVC A1XVA is just bad all around even its a massive 45kg monster.
     
  8. cynix

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    Have a read through the similar thread over here :

    Long term Crt Projector user upgrading to 4K Projector, advise needed..plz

    And to update on my last post in that other thread... I'm now running an ND4 filter (Tokina PNDR-06105) on my X7900 and have set the iris to -13, rather than -14, as I was getting some slight flicker occasionally on bright whites with the -14 (or -15) setting.

    And I also have an old Denon AV amp (AVC-A1SE) , was quite happy with the sound and luckily the JVC x7900 has 2 HDMI inputs so I can connect the blu-ray player and media streaming box direct to the PJ without any need for HDMI switching in the amp. Previously I had everything connected to the Iscan scaler and it switched sources automatically, but it has been completely removed now as there's no need for it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
  9. Stridsvognen

    Stridsvognen
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    I would think running a filter on top of the JVC would be a bit messy, the JVC have optical flare/ streaking, and from my experience, all flat/ straight glass elements adds more of that, did the experiment on my SONY VPL270ES, and went with lowering the contrast instead to reduce light output.
     
  10. Peter Parker

    Peter Parker
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    I tried an ND2 on a JVC 7900 I had here recently and it was difficult to get it to streak, but I could get it to do that with some angles. With a bit of care it should be pretty much transparent.
     
  11. ask4me2

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    Not sure if yours preferences and experiences apply to every setup out there?
    The load from the speakers connected, and how easy or hard they are to run for the power amplifiers in these receivers may be some of this problem. Adding active subwoofers so the speakers do not need to be powered at lower frequencies etc. will also reduce the need for raw power from any surround receiver. If the receiver have pre out for all the channels, adding external power amps for the hard to drive speakers will also be an option.

    My biggest opposition to receivers like the AVC A1XVA must be that it is a bit like putting all the eggs in the same basket, and that the development within AV receivers goes so fast that these are quickly outdated when it comes to tackling new standards from sources etc.

    Using a new projectors and UHD BD players etc. with older receivers, often introduce some problem getting the best soudtrack (atmos) and may introduce lip sync problems etc, so it is often better to match equipment produced closer in time, and is something to consider when moving from old CRT setups.
     
  12. Stridsvognen

    Stridsvognen
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    Ill say putting all the eggs in the same basket is what they all do these days.
    Denon surround recivers never really been to powerfull, the AVC A1XVA was huge and rated very high, like 10X 200W it actually used the same fets as the AVC A1SR, just 1 pr channel instead of 2 pr channel in the A1SR, wich describes the development very well, from there on it only got worse, smaler power supplies and so on.

    In general i think you need to keep a open mind about things and if audio listen to it, as specs say verry little about the sound, and i still miss something that runs around corners with the old AVC A1D, no matter price specs and formats, i do however add a power amp, so you can say im using it as a pre amp, it dont have room correction and fancy super hight bit dacs and 25 sound formats, i have about every Denon DVD and BD player made, and can also say that everything after the DVD A11 sounds fairly horrible, so i suspect the dac/ opamp stages in later designs are made for specs and not sound.

    There is absolutely no limitations in the old AVC A1SR regarding lipsync, if so the oppo have dalay option to fix that, i never used it, Atmos is a marketing gimick in my opinion, as i doubt anyone can really integrate that many speakers into a home theater, and the hole HDMI solution to carry sound seems semi defective, to not think about all the issues there is with various recivers when passing the image true there, and why many players have dedicated audio out, so you have a chance to avoid that mess.

    If he is happy with the sound of the Denon there is no reason it cant be used in a new player / projector combination.
     
  13. Stridsvognen

    Stridsvognen
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    Not sure i understand the combination, i would think its the wrong projector/ screen combination if you can not set the iris to match your desired light output.

    So to the topic, be aware that a gain screen is not a good match for the later JVC projectors, and if its not a option to change screen from a CRT gain or size like less than 110" go with a older JVC series like the X35/ X500
     
  14. Peter Parker

    Peter Parker
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    When I've seen the entry level eshift JVCs and even the N5 at short throw (most lumens, least contrast) with manual iris closed and a smallish image on an AT screen, I've wanted to add an ND as the black levels weren't that good, so I can see why some people may want to do that.

    I believe the JVCs produce more dynamic on/off CR with the manual iris fully open, so perhaps that's another reason, though the DI can be more visible in operation like that as I understand it. Maybe some would use an ND for SDR and remove it for HDR, depending on their SDR fL preference.

    Some people want as much brightness as they can get for HDR so I see them buying vertical compression anamorphic lenses (guarenteed to add 38% more lumens with a 4K panel pj unlike horizontal expansion lenses which may not actually add any extra) and getting higher gain screens to achieve that, especially if the pj is at a longer throw (less lumens more CR).

    Different strokes fro different folks as they say I guess.
     
  15. Stridsvognen

    Stridsvognen
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    whats the difference between a long trow/ more contrast, and a short trow closing the iris down to same light output.? wich will have best on off contrast.?
     
  16. Peter Parker

    Peter Parker
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    Long throw, iris wide open will have more dynamic contrast available.

    Cine4Home often measures the native CR and dynamic CR for different zoom and iris combinations so that would be worth looking at to see what works best.

    As I understand it, the contrast you get with the DI in operation will probably be different for the same fL for reference white compared to other throws with the manual iris closed down to any degree, as the most you can get is with the manual iris fully open, so if you have the iris closed down at all that will restrict the max dynamic CR you will get which means the short throw/iris closed will have the least amount of dynamic CR available compare to the same fL on the same screen with the pj further back. If you don't use the DI and rely just on the native CR, as you know it will be at its greatest with the iris closed down and minimum zoom but then you'll move the pj to a place where you're getting the fL you want, and that could mean the screen size and seating distance may have to change if you want to maintain a specific level of immersion/viewing angle. Often people don't have much of a choice where to place the projector so they have to work with what they have.

    If the pj is at it's shortest throw, it will have 25% more lumens compared to at it's longest throw, and 25% less contrast, and even with the iris fully closed down the black level looks raised on smaller screens, so there's not much you can do about that. That's one example of when someone may want to add an ND filter to improve the black levels.
     
  17. Stridsvognen

    Stridsvognen
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    Well to that point the thread starter is better of with a CRT projector, seems less complicated, and still leading contrast, with no gimick iris and lamp dimming that messes with low level dynamics.

    However ill recomend forgetting about ND filters, buy the projector that will fit the inviroment, screen size and gain.
    If a small gain screan, get a X500-X900, it has a decent but not super high lightoutput, the newer models like X5000 and up might be to bright in some aplications.

    When you pass 25000:1 you will not really see difference in 97% of content, and most JVC projectors have native panel contrast around 20000:1, so with a X5900 on a 110" neutral gain targeting 14fl you likely go -14 on the iris and get around 40000:1 on off contrast.

    The stepup X7900, might have 70000:1 but the difference will only be slightly visible in less than 1% of the content you watch, the ansi contrast wil basically even it out as soon as there is just a little information in a dark scene.

    Only JVC comes cloce to a decent native contrast performance, wich one is not so important as long as it fits the rest, and for simplicity stick to Blu ray material, wich is mastered parfectly for projection, and your free of endless fiddeling around with tonemapping and the frustration it brings.

    If you ever passing Denmark your welcome to drop in for a Demo, i have a tweaked out Marquee 9500 that maxes out at 16fl on my 110" screen, a SONY VPL 270ES that have very good ansi contrast, and a JVC X3- X7 and X5900, wich have good on off contrast but less ansi contrast, i have actually measured better ansi on the CRT than some JVC projectors.

    Overall i prefer the Marquee still, but its also significantly different than any other CRT you have ever met, and takes a Lumagen processor to do some blue correction and frame tripling to run 72fps, if your used to 60fps on CRT you might not be bothered by digital motion.
    The SONY is native 4K and trows a very solid stable image, and you will notice the ansi contrast is about 2 - 4X higher than the CRT and JVC, but black level is not realy there, and for a good reference image you realy need a scaler like the Lumagen to take advantage of the 4K panels, as players and the projector is just not good enough in my opinion.

    The JVC will in general be closest to CRT performance due to decent native contrast, its ansi contrast is very alike, so im fairly sure you will not need to get bothered with gray filters and dynamic iris gimick.

    If you have a standard 8500AC Marquee it will no matter what be a fairly big improvement even if you get a old JVC X3. and a OPPO blu ray spinner.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
  18. Peter Parker

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    Are you saying the CRT is less complicated simply based on my comments on how the JVCs dynamic iris works along with throw etc? Most people don't know or worry about that and just place the pj where it's most convenient, use the zoom and focus and then try to get the best out of it. I've yet to see anyone one dismiss any projector based on that. NDs or CC filters aren't necessary but are just a simple tweak that some people may or may not want to use. Same as those people who prefer HTPC with MadVR or a Lumagen for scaling etc vs a standalone player - not everybody wants those things as they see them as adding complexity they don't want, and stick with a simple pj plus UHD player combination, and maybe a calibration.

    I kind of agree with you with respect to on/off contrast, but more is always better unless there are other image attributes which make the overall image less appealing, and I can see the difference between the entry level JVCs and mid level JVCs for contrast performance but I wouldn't recommend them with a short throw set up which doesn't work with them very well IMHO.

    High native CR is important but a good dynamic contrast system can improve lower native and be almost invisible in operation 99.9% of the time (if it's good) - some laser projectors have a good dynamic system that can work well and give you full fade to black without the issue of coming out of black too slowly and losing shadow detail as a compromise. They also tend to have a more analogue look which I prefer, and that's an image attribute that is there 100% of the time.

    I agree that matching the pj to screen is important - I've seen people say how bad and bright digitals are when they've had them on small gain screens (same as some people saying CRTs are too dim when having them on large no gain screens), and those are examples where the set up doesn't work well and an ND would be useful to get the fL down to the guidelines, and that is a better compromise than reducing the contrast control IMHO - something like 8fL looks about 80% as bright as 14fL IIRC (due to how our eyes work) so having say 12fL instead of 14 using an ND would look much the same as 14fL after reducing the contrast control (lamp dimming not withstanding), but you're not compromising the pjs dynamic range, but those are the kinds of choices you may have to make if you can't get the pj in the right place for the screen size you have/want and can't get the target fL using an iris. The Sony 760 for example loses on/off contrast as you dim the laser beyond a certain point (no manual iris) and they do benefit from an ND in that case. I'm sure most people don't target 14fL and just live with whatever they get. I've seen many sub 14fL set ups that still look perfectly fine, especially CRTs which tend to be able to do that well because of their higher on/off CR.

    ANSI isn't so important with digitals as it's very difficult to see much of a difference when comparing low ANSI to high ANSI machines with high ANSI scenes with different models in normal content (DLP vs LCoS for example and ignoring things like end credits), but it's easier to see high on/off vs low on/off. Very low ANSI can have very visible haloing and streaking with floating black levels and colour changes which can be quite distracting though - like a visible dynamic iris, so for some people that can be a deal breaker (same as for those who always turn off the DI on digitals), despite the higher on/off that may be available on those machines, as well as their ability to come out of black fast enough without compromising black levels or shadow detail.

    I've seen a lot of CRTs including a modified Marquee 9500 Ultra and they do throw a nice picture. Then again, I think all projectors can throw a nice picture, but they all have pros and cons which means we tend to pick those that tick more of our own personal boxes. That's why a demo is important, and ideally a split screen direct comparison between different makes/models so you then get to see the image differences without having to rely on memory which generally isn't very good at things like that.

    I think a good laser pj may be closer to a CRT 'look' as they tend to be more analogue looking compared to some other choices, and have FFTB without compromising black levels or contrast, but that's just my opinion based on what I've seen in direct split screen comparisons, so I would tend to suggest looking at those as well as the JVCs. Both have pros and cons so you have to pick your poison, but I don't think the OP will be disappointed with either of them whichever he went with. In the most part there is no 'best pj', just the best pj for you, because the best pj for someone else may not be the best for you, and that's why a demo is so important.
     
  19. Stridsvognen

    Stridsvognen
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    split scren demo is a bit of a pitfall, as to do a split screen you need 2 projectors setup on the same screen on at the same time, and you will compromise the low level performance of the best of them.

    Ill say the JVC normaly do 20000:1 on off in worse case scenarion, short trow low lamp fully open iris, and as the sony will be around 10000:1 and epson around 3000:1, chosing a startpoint where dynamic dimming is not as needet is a good start point, as you can go lower before you activate the DI, meaning you maintain your gamma performance further down.

    I did do significant testing of various ND filters on different projectors and always setteled with a different solution, as the filter also kind of kills the percived dynamic in the image, + the in places reduced ansi contrast, that is impossible to avoid, however some might not notice, but they are basically always there a bit like if you run the OPPO screensaver on a JVC you will notice optical reflections of the logo in the black, very identical to the filter effect.

    If the projector is to bright your most likely been poorly guidet, and you got the wrong projector for your aplication, and as JVC made various lamp engines, all with about the same native panel contrast, its actually possible to find the series that suits any needs.

    Now as you refer to yes lower lightoutput can look ok on CRT, but its still a major upgrade going from 10 to 14fl on a crt, you ramp faster out of black, and gets much more dynamics in the image, ill run 16fl if i watch dark movies, like Harry potter, as the small increasement is good specially concidering CRTs high gamma, at a 2.3 gamma on a JVC ill say 14fl is plenty, on the older JVC like the X7 it will max out at 11fl with a new lamp in low lamp mode on my screen fully open iris, and if you go for high lamp mode closing down the iris you get better measured contrast like 35000:1 wich will be slightly visible in some scenes, but in general the low lamp mode looks more apealing and contrasty on real content.

    So when reading test and measurements its important to understand the complexity, and how it translates to movie content, so you always need to concider that a better measurement actually can be negative when looking movie content, as a 10% window measured on screen dont really have any relevance to the composition of movie content.
     
  20. Peter Parker

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    In all the calibrated split screen demos I've been to, you really can see the contrast differences if they're there, and sometimes between the different techs too, but colour differences not so much - REC709 unlikely, though HDR/P3 is more likely due to differences in implementation and gamma curves - when you do A/B as well you can see that the split screen isn't as compromising as some would think, and some say that it will compromise the better blacks of say the JVC, but that's not the case as those differences are visible - it's no different to a JVC producing a single image with different levels of shadow detail - the different black levels don't all become the same in that image with the brighter black level raising the darker black level even though they're right next to each other. Doing A/B means you're relying on memory and that isn't very reliable, so ideally you should try both ways.

    You can certainly see the difference between an entry level JVC and the mid level for example - in split screen blind testing (when you didn't know which projectors were being used so you had to guess) sometimes the only way to tell which pj was which was with the contrast and black levels if those scenes came about, otherwise everything else looked much the same and it was difficult to tell - projectors tend to look more the same than different once set up and calibrated. There were some other things that would stand out a little to help but those were harder. Resolution differences between native 4K and eshift was barely perceptible most of the time. Cleaner more stable images tend to stand out a little more too when comparing laser to lamp in some cases for example.

    There are some good examples over at projectiondream where they are showing contrast differences in good and bad rooms, and you can see the differences in both cases. Conclusion is that a higher on/off pj will always have better blacks than a lower one no matter how good or bad the room is, despite the reduced/equalised ANSI contrast. That doesn't mean I'm advocating a bad room, just pointing out that it only impacts the ANSI and not the on/off. A good room is preferable where possible of course.

    My experiences of using filters over the years is clearly very different to yours, so all I can suggest is that people do some research and/or try it for themselves. I've never seen a anything like the Oppo screensaver issue you had with the Sony 270 for example so I can see why in that case you chose a different route

    The perceived dynamic drop you mention may simply be due to a visible drop in image brightness as a good ND doesn't change the on/off or ANSI CR to a significant degree, but once you've adapted to it you are still getting the same dynamic range but a visibly better black level. With the right screen size and brightness, adding an ND can give the impression of a small drop in image brightness but a large improvement in black levels - that's down to how our eyes work.

    Cine4Home and Kalibrate use CC (and sometimes ND) filters with a lot of their projectors to improve the native contrast for example (and with some Sony's very minimal loss of lumens). Good filters have very little ANSI reduction issues and certainly don't reduce it down to the levels of CRT for example, so you're not going to get those kind of image artefacts - it's not really something I would worry about in the scheme of things. The added CR/improved black level is certainly visible, whereas any ANSI difference isn't.

    It's not always possible to get a perfect match between screen/pj/throw etc so there are often compromises that have to be made.

    I agree that measurements aren't everything as they don't tell you everything about how the image will actually look, and as watching movies is a visual medium, how the image actually looks is the most important part IMHO. If a pj tech adds image noise to everything that won't be in the measurements, though those measurements may be 'reference', the image may not be. That's why a demo is so important because things like that will show up if you notice things like that (not everybody does), and because we're all different, what may be a deal breaker for one person, may not be for another.

    For example, some people don't like the JVCs DI because it's sometimes visible in operation, so they turn it off and are happy living with the native CR, but others aren't that bothered by the occasional DI introduced artefact and are happy to live with it due to the added on/off CR and black level improvement it adds. Same with laser dimming - that tends to work better in the most part but does get tripped up occasional and visibly so, but it does work well 99.9% of the time and improves the on/off enough so most people leave it on. The FFTB certainly adds a palpable dimension to those scenes that have it (assuming the room has no ambient).

    CRTs are good at point light emission but not so good at full screen white IIRC - does that mean they can do a pretty good job with HDR? I know they're not natively capable, but with a Lumagen or even a Panasonic using SDR/2020 mode you'd probably be able to get half decent results. No worse than what some HDR capable machines are doing as it's so variable at the moment.
     
  21. Stridsvognen

    Stridsvognen
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    Sure you can apply tonemapping to CRT like any other projector, but ill prefer to just stick to SDR as it needs no convertion and the standard is stable and have less variations than HDR that is all over the place, and then CRT can have perfect black, no dynamic gimick needet, that alone make a CRT setup look apealing as there is less variables in that regard, where you can argue if you need a Rec601, Rec709, P3 1000nit and P3 4000nit calibration, DI or not, high or low lamp mode, how much to close down the iris, and so on, on your digital to go with all various formats you might put in your player. I seriously dont think its worth the hazzle.

    And when a guy ask for a recomendation ill guess he gets super confused when gray filters gets trown in the mix as a option, and as he is going to buy a projector, why would he buy a projector where he would need a gray filter, its simply compleetly pointless to buy the wrong projector for the specifik setup, and then start fiddeling with DIY modifications, wich he mentions he have no interest in with the CRT.

    Ill disagree that ansi is not visible, i think its very visible, but most people might not focus on it, and CRT is fairly the same ansi as the JVC projectors, with variations on C element coatings and lenses used, as there is a lot of different ones to pick from, and rarely 2 the same.
    So the CRT have no limitation in that regard, unless we talk about AC cooled CRT machines wich is a compleetly different story.
     
  22. Peter Parker

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    I tend to agree with you regarding HDR - I'm not a fan either to be honest and prefer SDR - all the movies I see at the cinema are SDR and that's what I think 'cinematic' looks like so tend to prefer that overall look to the HDR stuff which as you say, is a bit all over the place a lot of the time.

    The only reason we're discussing filters is because it was brought up in an earlier post, and your experience of them is quite different from mine and other peoples, so I felt a different hands on opinion on them was warranted to give some balance. That doesn't mean people have to use them because they don't, but it's nice to have a balanced view so that an informed decision can be made if someone feels they may want one. A bit like calibration - not everybody wants it or even needs it, but if they know more about it they might decide it's something they'd like to have.

    From what I've seen, I think even LC lenses have lower ANSI than the JVCs and that can be quite visible on screen and much worse than any good quality lens filter, but not everyone notices it or worries about it, especially if they prefer the other image attributes the tech has to offer. Much like any other projector really. Just get a demo and a comparison and pick your poison.

    If the OP is within easy reach of the M25 and considering buying new, he could contact RickyJ at Kalibrate and see what projectors he currently has on demo (he does good split screen demo's IMHO). Then he can arrange to go and see them. That would be one way to get an idea of what the current models have to offer. Or he could see if there is anyone near him on the forum that wouldn't mind giving a demo of their older model JVC etc if he would rather get something used but wants to see them in action first before he goes to the classifieds or ebay. A used Epson laser or JVC 7900 or similar (if you can get them at a similar sub £2000 price) would probably be at the top of my list.
     
  23. ask4me2

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    A lot of good information in this thread now i think :) .Have not tried that ND2 filter mod my self, but for digital projector "tweaking", i like using 1.33x anamorpic lenses instead to conserve the light and get the use of every pixel and light form the projector (16:9 > 2.35:1 ) for scope movies.

    I remember my own CRT > Digital projector switch back in ~2007, and then it was the JVC RS1/RS2 (HD1/HD100) models that did the switch rather easy for me. (used a Marquee 8500 with color filtered HD144 lenses at the time) I think many other CRT enthusiasts even with very nice 9" models did the same back then too.

    Since then i have tried some of the best CRT 9" models too, and now when I compare the HD100 with my Sony G90 and the RS520, i can see the RS520 wins on almost all parameters (except for the G90 full fade to black) and throws a very nice cinema picture from BD and UHD with HDR too (use the Panasonic DP UB9000 with it's projector tone mapping etc.)

    Think there always will be room for some tweaking with digital projectors too, but with CRT there often is a lot more "setup fiddling" on a daily basis, and that is something i do not miss enjoying movies in the home cinema these days. :D
     
  24. Stridsvognen

    Stridsvognen
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    Ill be careful with specifik recomendation at the moment as the OP has not specified screen and room size.

    I guess your experience with LC CRT is of older date and early lenses, Marquee produced CRT projectors as late as 2011, so there was also quite a few changes to lens coating, and they changed manufacture a few times as well. If you take a look at C element you wil also see that they are coated and reflects light differently, all parameters that relates directly to ANSI performance, i measured up to around 100:1 on CRT, and as low as 80:1 on a JVC in the same room, with consistent results, and i do have quite a few different CRT and digitals laying around and setup to do direct comparisons. But as no one else run a Marquee with this type of videochan its not something i can realy expect anyone else to relate to, i can just say its significantly different than any CRT you ever seen, and a lot of the percived bad ansi contrast with CRT has a lot to do with the analog videochain, to a point that you can not evaluate optical performance.
    Hower its possible to make it JVC compatable, and i would be able to reproduce that performance after 10 years of fiddeling to find out what to put where.
     
  25. Stridsvognen

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    Fiddeling with CRT is for most more a hobby, and a atempt to find what CRT cant do, and i fully agree that the digitals are easy and better, as i can say i seen a lot of different CRT setups, and always thought.. Jesus that was bad. And i think that relates to nobody understanding how to properly set it up, and even then a CRT like the G90 cant properly resolve 720P, it will display 1080P but not resolve it due to a huge amount of limitations and complications in the analog videochain, Ill also prefer a JVC X3 over the G90, the older JVC HD100 was just pittifull looking at it today, and not sure if its raly posible to say its anything but easier to install, and it will look better out of the box than 99,999% of users get thair CRT setup and instaled.

    I finaly got a Marquee setup the other day that just works, turn it on, no heatup, just watch a movie, up to 16fl infinite contrast ,and measured 91:1 ansi, on all 3 tubes at the same time, fairly close to the screen, if taken pr tube closer to the lenses it will be higher. running full fat 1920 x 1080P 72fps at a wopping 195Mhz pixel clock, wich beats anything else out there on motion handeling.

    Didrik will get here in a few weeks, lets see if he wants to trade in his JVC NX9 for a Marquee.. lol
     
  26. ask4me2

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    Think the best recommendation is to test and see different projector setups in real life where it shall be used. Not every CRT enthusiast like how a good Digital projector is able to show for example more razor sharp details in a cinema picture (due to the CRT lenses MTF etc,) so to see these things live at home, and not to mention be able to switch between the CRT and the digital (so we do not fool our self by picture memory in any direction) may be the best advise to give here.
     
  27. Peter Parker

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    I'm with you there, but more so for the added pixel density rather than any light gains. My current set up with my A lens actually gives me one lux less than zooming without the lens, but I prefer the image the lens gives over zooming. To me, correct presentation and preservation of the various formats is important and having scope wider than flat makes a huge visual difference in presentation and impact.

    Colour correcting filters to take into account the UHP lamps lack of red can be a useful mod as it gives you even more contrast because you are not reducing green and blue so much, so although you are dimming the image with the filter, you gain some light energy back with the filter compared to calibrating without it. With some projectors, the loss of lumens is quite small and not visible (Sony VW40 loses between 0 and 10% of the lumens so is a win win mod IMHO). An FL-Day is a common choice.

    This is a common theme I see with many ex and even current CRT owners - one guy I know used his G90 for DVD and the JVC for BD etc. I think by and large, digitals meet or exceed CRTs in most areas and have done for some time with just blacks and FFTB being the are that was lacking, but today that's not really the case any more, and the lasers even have FFTB so match it there and without the issue of coming out of black too slowly. Some things can be improved with mods but not everything. I used to enjoy tweaking/calibrating etc but these days I'm more set and forget and just watch movies.
     
  28. ask4me2

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    Have one question about your 16fl setup. how big are the screen, and are you filling the entire screen with that white 16fl picture? Just looked at your heat sink mod. nice cutting by the way. :) One big difference between CRT and digital lamp projectors is the "peak lumen" effect. That may effect some of the way ANSI contrast is measured too?

    Wow that was nice to hear. :) :thumbsup:
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
  29. Stridsvognen

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    CRT have no problem douing a 50% full white screen, think you reach around 75% before you hit the current limitation, i have not measured the light output in the corners, but with the LCP tubes i get significantly better corner to corner focus wich translates directly to color uniformity, and i dont have any noticable light dropoff, however im sure there is a bit

    The screen is 110" Adeo Reference white wich is a 1.0 with no color polution i can measure, when checking towards lens and on screen measurements, a gain screen would add some ease to the projector, and sharpen it up, but also add color uniformity issues due to the different lens angles.

    I setteled with a 14fl calibration, having the 16fl disposable for dark movies where a bit steaper out of black gamma is nice, making the shadow details more defined.
     
  30. simon1967

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    Wow. So much information and incredibly interesting but to be perfectly honest, most of it is going right over my head. I doubt very much that I’m going to be able to demo any of these PJs (especially some of the older models) but after my disappointment in the picture quality when I changed from plasma to LED on my TV, I thought I’d do a bit more background research.

    From what I’ve gathered so far, that my projector is unlikely to be a tweaked, fettled with example (label attached) - although it was calibrated by James Soanes (CRT projectors) who did know his way around CRTs. It hasn’t been used extensively and from what I can recall when it was last connected, it still throws out nice pictures. I’m sure that if I had the patience, I could get to all connected and working again but it's not at all family-friendly with all the settings you have to mess around with on the scaler/amp/projector - hence my desire to change.

    I think the crux of my confusion is how I connect everything together. All my sources are digital (with the exception of the Wii) so would assume that the inputs into the PJ will be HDMI. However, my existing AV amp does not have any HDMI switching or scaling capabilities hence the need for the scaler. I understand that some PJ may have 2 HDMI inputs but my preference would be to run a single cable to the PJ and then switch through the amp or an alternative switching box. I hadn’t budgeted for a stand-alone Blu Ray player as I’ll likely be watching a lot of source material through Sky Q. I don’t really have a desire to start building up a library of 4K Blu Rays as I don’t think the extra expense is worth it.

    So, in no particular order, here are my burning questions:
    • If I use my existing AV amp, how do I switch multiple sources that can play on both my TV and (new) PJ.
    • If I don’t use the amp and use something like a Denon X6400 (within budget), how are the scaling and switching capabilities
    • Do I have a need for the scaler or are all the scaling duties contained within the PJ itself (like my old Cine 7)
    • A JVC x500 has been mentioned as a starting point but I have been confused by all of the other options. Bearing in mind my starting point, is there a massive difference between the older JVC models and the latest 7900 models. I would push the boat out but it would be good to understand what the differences are going to be for the extra buck.
    • I assume I’ll have no need for my HD Fury device either?
    • My existing remote screen is approx 96” x 60” and the front of my existing floor mounted Marquee to the screen is approx 11.5 ft - if that will have any bearing on my options. I’m assuming that all of the digital PJs are much easier to set up and simply zoom and focus? Is this the correct assumption.
    So many more questions but these will keep my brain busy for a while.

    Once again, many thanks for your advice and I’ll keep reading all the other responses and hopefully, I’ll understand more than 20% of what you are all talking about.

    [​IMG]
     

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