onkyo 818 and mk sound 950s help

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by dinoprada2003, Feb 21, 2013.

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  1. dinoprada2003

    dinoprada2003
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    Hello,

    just wanted to check im doing everything right :) I got a new onkyo 818 with some lcr mk sound 950s .. I ran the full audyssey setup but the sound is rather "tinny" and "harsh" esp at levels over 50 .

    I went into the settings and changed the ohms from 6 to 4 ... crossovers from 60hz to 80hz

    everything else I left as audyssey calibrated distance spl levels +/- etc/etc

    just wondering what this could be? I can't say i'm blown away at the moment and this is coming from using an old legacy amp with AA AEGIS speakers. Perhaps things will improve when I get some filler for the speaker stands and or auralex or something to hold down the 950s to the stand to tighten the sound?

    also with the sub i'm using a velodyne cht10r just wondering what high pass and low pass crossover should be set to on the back of the sub? as well as auto on/off active or inactive? I KNOW these speakers and amp are quality so if i'm missing something any tips or tweaks guys would really really help and be appreciated :D

    fwiw my room is about 12x12 feet .. speakers to listening distance is around 8-10ft and the fronts are angled in towards the listening position.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2013
  2. DodgeTheViper

    DodgeTheViper
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    Judging by the sound that you describe, I would suggest that it relates to the sub settings. What are they set to ?
     
  3. dinoprada2003

    dinoprada2003
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    hello dodge, on the amp.

    lpf of lfe 120hz
    subwoofer phase 0%
    distance to sub 20.5 ft
    manual equalizier off
    sub set to 75 db
     
  4. mojogoes

    mojogoes
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    I take it that your connected to the low pass filter via a phono connector or both high and low as you ask where both should be set?
     
  5. Lesmor

    Lesmor
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    Hi the guys here will certainly help to improve your listening pleasure
    Is it a dedicated listening room?
    You mention Auralex to hold down your speakers?
    Could You explain what you mean and what you have already as Auralex is only for room treatment, although they have the Gramma and some speaker wedges, the wedges wont help.
    A square room also does not help acoustically nor does sitting against the back wall and if you are then the bass really should be overpowering
    What has Audyssey set the sub level at?
    Also Audyssey has set your sub distance too far, it should be further than the measured distance but 20.5 feet seems excessive its basically twice your listening position and the delay IMHO would be too much, it could be caused by the 12x12 dimensions of your room?
    But don't get disheartened things can be improved
    I initially would switch off Audyssey set my amp back to 6ohms, get a tape measure and set the distances manually, hopefully you have a SPL meter and set the levels manually
    Main and surround speakers to 80HZ and sub to 120 crossover
    You will then have a better base line to work from, and depending if it is a dedicated room take things from there as far as the 12x12 room is concerned
    See what you think then perhaps we can progress from there
    Edit I am not familiar with your sub, but someone will be, also refer to the subs manual for guidance
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2013
  6. Mark.Yudkin

    Mark.Yudkin
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    Disconnect the speaker level connections to the sub, use only the LFE connection from the amp. Set the sub's LPF to Disable (all the way to the left). The sub's HPF is irrelevant as the speakers are connected to the 808, not the speaker level output connections on the sub, and you aren't using the line output to feed back to the power amp.

    On the Onkyo set all speakers to SMALL and the crossover to 120Hz. 80Hz is too low for LCR 950s.
     
  7. Lesmor

    Lesmor
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    Don't want to disagree but MK 950's are THX select 2 and should most definitely be set at 80hz

    Dimensions (HxWxD) in mm 400x170x220
    Freqency repsonse 80Hz - 20kHz
    HF Driver 1" Silk Dome Ferrofluid
    LF Driver 2 x 5.25" Polypropylene
    Weight 6.9kg
     
  8. dinoprada2003

    dinoprada2003
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    Hello guys thanks all for taking the time to reply but I am a little confused with the conflicting advice? and what to do :rolleyes:

    anyway i'm only using one subwoofer lead from the subs lfe to the amps lfe not a phono connector?

    I have posted a few pictures of my room so you can get an idea about the problems I face (excuse the mess I will be grouting and hiding all the wires soon as well as mounting the plasma and putting the centre on top of the av stand)

    the speakers are rated at 4ohms but auddessy set them to six I thought 4ohms would be better though!?

    Sub is in the left corner of the room pointing down at the sound stage sadly I know there is a sofa in the way but I have no where else to put the sofa :(

    I will move the other sofa away from the wall and closer to the speakers as advised as it is almost flush against the back wall at the mo. I know audessy set sub distance to 20ft I would say in reality it is about 10-12ft from the lp.

    Yes the auralex I was refering to are "wedges" that go between the stand and the speaker.

    also I have posted a picture of the back of my sub so you guys can advise what settings to use along with a link to a pdf manual of the cht 10r if that helps?

    http://velodyne.com/pdf/cht/cht-r_manual.pdf


    I also need to get longer cables for the l/r as at the moment the runs are too short as well as space restrictions so are very close to the TV.

    p.s can anyone recommend what speaker stand to use with the 818's mic?

    http://www.djmmusic.com/items.asp?Cc=MicStandS

    p.p.s I do have a spl meter but cant find it DOH!
     

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    Last edited: Feb 22, 2013
  9. mojogoes

    mojogoes
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    So if your not connected to the lfe at the sub/receiver end via a phono connection! what are you connected with:confused:
     
  10. dante01

    dante01
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    Connect your receiver to the sub from its Sub pre out (one) to the left rca input on the sub.

    Turn the sub's low pass crossover to its maximum and set its volume inbetween 9 and 12 o'clock, Set the Auto Power to inactive.

    You can now run the Audyssey calibration. Settings on the sub should be left alone after the calibration.
     
  11. dinoprada2003

    dinoprada2003
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    dante the sub cable is plugged into the back of the vely that says lfe is that what you mean?

    low pass crossover has 40hz 80z and direct so what is maximum?

    what should high pass crossover be set to on the sub ? 80hz or 100hz

    there is no dial for volume only buttons up and down?

    http://velodyne.com/pdf/cht/cht-r_manual.pdf

    page 2 has a diagram of the back of the vely I have. I have no idea how to set volume to 2/3rds as you suggest as there is no knob only volume up and down buttons and no way to tell where you are apart from a default way to re-set the sub to 35 out of 100 by doing a button combination.

    thanks
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2013
  12. dante01

    dante01
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    Yes, the L input is the LFE input. Use DIRECT. This will bypass the sub's own crossover which is surplus to requirement when using the crossover onboard the receiver. You are not using high pass speaker inputs so there's no need to set the high pass filter. The high pass filter is only applicable to signals sourced via the high pass speaker inputs.

    From the manual:


    I'd personally suggest not altering the sub volume initially, but maybe check what level the calibration determined and then rerun the calibration after making adjustment to the onboard volume if required.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2013
  13. dinoprada2003

    dinoprada2003
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    cheers dante :smashin:any idea how to set the volume on the vely to 2/3rds stupid thing has no indicators I only know how to set it to defualt i.e 1/3 and no way of telling how many presses of the remote takes it to 2/3rds.

    also any feelings about the sub placement with the sofa in front?


    the way audessy works on my amp is it tells you to set the sub to 75db. It plays a test tone and requires you to up or down the volume on the sub till you get to 75db on the onscreen menu in setup
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2013
  14. dante01

    dante01
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    No idea. I know you can adjust the volume via the remote, but no idea of what incremental changes are applied by each key press? Just keep pressing the volume buttons until you get the required 75db ;)

    I also note that you can alter phase via the remote. Ensure this is set to its default 0°.
     
  15. dinoprada2003

    dinoprada2003
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    A little update :) iv'e had more time to spend listening to music mainly classical pieces and film sound tracks I notice as well the problems are worse with audx32 on but even with sub off the problem persists in direct mode or stereo?

    Anyway I would explain the sound as muffled on some film tracks like someone is talking with a hand over the mouth or boomy sounding? and with music esp or when on "high" volumes on movies the problem rears it'self most . When listening to piano pieces in particular the sound is very "harsh" the high notes and the piano keys are uncomfortable to listen to like screeching or piercing to the ear like each press of the key hurts lol :(

    does the aud mike need a stand to calibrate properly I have just been using a make shift one of boxes cushions etc till my mike stand is delivered.

    All in all i would describe it as uncomfortable/fatiguing to listen to esp at "high" -20 volumes.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2013
  16. Lesmor

    Lesmor
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    Do you not think that switching "sub off" and then thinking it will sound good is a bad idea?
    You don't need a mic stand, you don't need Auralex wedges all of that would be a waste of money
    The system should sound good set up manually with Audyssey off
    Then you can fine tune with an Audyssey calibration
    It appears to me you are not replying or listening or to what you are being asked or advised
    One last thing check all your cabling is at the correct polarity on speakers and the amp
     
  17. Mark.Yudkin

    Mark.Yudkin
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    Although it is true the advice you have received some minor contradictions in details (such as where to set the crossover exactly), it does appear that you are disregarding what we're saying, even in the areas in which there is complete agreement amongst all responders.

    It is crucial that the mike be set up correctly, as the reponse of the Audyssey system measurements optimize for perfect reception at the mike. YOu don't need a special stand, but you do need to apply common sense. For example if the high frequencies near the mike are being muffled by cushions, or your sofa, then the Onkyo will compensate for that by setting stressing of these muffled frequencies until they get through and the result will be extremely harsh in any space other than that occupied by the microphone.

    ---

    [Technically lesmor is correct with the 80Hz crossover - the speakers are THX speakers, but in practice they're -3dB at 77Hz, so IF you have problems with a dip aound the 80Hz crossover, THEN the best thing to do is resolve the problem, than to persist with the theory. Hence I said to use 120Hz (100Hz would also be fine). But in any case you should experiment.]
     
  18. dinoprada2003

    dinoprada2003
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    mark/lesmor,

    I'm not disregarding or ignoring your advice guys :) in fact I took it I set crossovers to 100hz ohms back to 6ohms and even spent all day tidying up all the cables and moving the sub to the corner of the right hand wall so there is nothing in the way taking my desk out as well so the speakers have room around them to breath. I measured distance and aud32x got it right with lcr. Sub about 10ft away so if aud32x set it at 20ft what should I set it to?

    I have no spl to hand so cant run any manual tests sadly.

    polarity is fine on amp and cables.

    iv'e also moved the lp sofa away from the wall as advised

    "Disconnect the speaker level connections to the sub, use only the LFE connection from the amp."

    mark the only cable I have and have ever had going from sub to amp is a single "subwoofer cable" it goes from lfe in on the sub to the lfe on the back of the amp is that what you mean mate? :)

    there is also no lpf knob on the back of my sub mate only only hpc and lpc which I have set to "direct".

    there is also no option in my amp to set speakers to small .

    thanks btw I appreciate all of you taking the time to respond :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2013
  19. dante01

    dante01
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    Onkyo AV receiver regard all speakers as being full range (LARGE) until you allot them a crossover, at which point they act as speakers designated SMALL would act. If you allot a crossover to any of the speakers then those associated speakers are what is called SMALL by other manufacturers.
     
  20. igorzep

    igorzep
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    Audyssey can't measure speaker resistance, so it doesn't set it. ;)
    By the way, I can't understand why you mentioned it, does it change the sound quality when you changed this? Or just wondering what is the right setting for you?
     
  21. dante01

    dante01
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    It is generally advised that you not use impedance switching on AV amps and leave it set to 6 or 8 ohms rather than setting it to 4. The only reason for the implementation of the switching is in order to comply with regulations in the USA. The switching actually limits the power rather than doing anything that would improve upon the audio.
     
  22. dinoprada2003

    dinoprada2003
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    Thanks dante :)... I have set crossovers from 80- all the way to 120hz but the problem still persists? ohms set to 6 as advised even turning off the sub just to focus on the front lcr but it is extremely "grating" harsh and sharp to listen to music in particular at even -20 db on the amp .I even tried moving the sub and re-calibrated audx32 this time it got the distance right about 12ft for the sub but on audx32 setup it would during the test tones on setup even with the sub at it's lowest volume not let me drop below 80db this is with the sub in the right hand corner with nothing in front and the sub flush against the back and side walls.

    l/r are a foot from the edges of the screen and 2-3 ft away from walls so I have no clue what is causing frankly a very disappointing sound stage and not what I expect from nearly 3ks worth of speakers and amp.

    another thing I noticed on movies is I can tell where the sound is coming from it all seems to be centered around the lcr rather than filling the room?

    I will try and dig out my spl as advised on the weekend or buy a new one and do a manual calibration before I run audx32 .. fwiw speaker distance is correct with audx32 and via using the tape measure .



    p.s igor no 4ohms sounds the same as 6ohms just thought more power from the amp might fix the problem.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2013
  23. dinoprada2003

    dinoprada2003
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    mark :

    I will re-calibrate when I get a speaker stand for the mike (I know lesmor said it would not help but i'm at my wits end ) ... balancing it on the empty amp box and moving it around the sofa is probably not helping so its worth a shot ... :D
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2013
  24. igorzep

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    Its worth it definitely. Good support for the mic is very important. The empty box can easily transfer all kinds of resonances to the mic and influence calibration. The best is to use boom mic stand, as tripod is not as easy to place around listening area (putting tripod legs to sofa is also recommended to avoid)
     
  25. kbfern

    kbfern
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    Move the speakers nearer the walls to get a bit of extra bass, 2-3ft is loosing any boundary gain that may be available.
     
  26. kbfern

    kbfern
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    MK's are sub/sat systems and without a decent sub are going to sound bass light, I think the 950's were also very revealing speakers so without a decent sub integrated correctly the system will probably sound a bit harsh.

    The CHT10 maybe the problem here, strange that the gain has no knob so you can see how far up the scale it is for output.With the 818 the sub needs to be outputting at 85db to get a decent calibration with XT32.

    Do you know someone with another sub that you could borrow it see if that sounds any better. Other than that do you know the speakers are ok and not shot as my MK's sound great with plenty of dynamism and whilst on they bright side of neutral are not at all harsh sounding.
     
  27. DodgeTheViper

    DodgeTheViper
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    Good advice Keith from both posts, I'd nip round if he was close to me :D
     
  28. igorzep

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    They will sound as they sound. While they can be not capable for bass, when bass is sent to the sub it doesn't matter. It is easy to spot if sub is distorting or the fronts sound harsh and no improvements in subwoofer will change how fronts sound. First thing he should try is to calibrate appropriately. As long as it is done a way it is done - it is pretty hard to determine what is the problem and calibration can cause all unexpected side effects one could imagine.

    It should be set near 75dB for proper calibration. RTFM!
     
  29. kbfern

    kbfern
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    It' is a known issue with Audyssey XT32 that if you run the sub at 75db "while calibrating" you get issues with strange distance settings etc. Therefore 85db-90db is the suggested level for calibrating, I did RTFM by the way.:D

    When calibration is done the amp/XT32 returns the sub to 75db.
     
  30. igorzep

    igorzep
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    No strange distance settings for me... I hear first time about it.

    90dB is 15dB higher than expected 75dB and it is more than possible 12 dB level adjust, so it is impossible to get proper calibration with it.


    How could it do it?
     

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