OLED TV's Motion resolution?

Discussion in 'OLED TVs Forum' started by bery_451, Mar 11, 2016.

  1. bery_451

    bery_451
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    I recently heard that OLED motion resolution is just as bad as LCD/LED TV's with resolutions automatically down sample to 300p or 600p lines of resolution when there is motion on screen unless it is a static image like a photo.

    Is this true? If so then I say that Plasma TV's are superior to OLED as my 6 year old Panasonic Plasma can do 1080 even in motion.

    What are your comments on this?

    Is Motion Resolution an Issue with OLED TVs?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2016
  2. scottthehat

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    Its true but it doesnt mean it bad, you need to see it to compare.
     
  3. 5to1

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    From the part of your post I have highlighted in bold, I don't think you quite understand what those figures mean.

    The panel itself isn't doing any downsampling, it is displaying every frame as it should be. In fact I believe in terms of pixel response time OLED is superior to both LCD/Plasma (apparently one of the reasons 3D is so good on it).

    However, it does use sample and hold (I believe Samsung had the option for BFI on their OLEDs, so its a choice rather then a limit of OLED tech) like most LCD sets. Its a quirk of the way the human eye works that means some people will suffer retina retention of the image and that is what the motion blur tests measure.

    Plasma sets don't use sample and hold, but instead use PWM (limitation of the tech). While that limits the chances of retina retention, it brings with it other problems. Some people will notice flicker and variation in pixel luminosity (they look like theyre shimmering). DFC is another issue with Plasma sets.

    The root cause of the problems is actually the low frame rate most video material is shot at. Films for example are only 24fps, although most content creators will take this into account and film/plan/edit the content appropriately. Broadcast TV is a little better at 50/60fps, but for fast paced action such as sport that can still be too little. Tech limits (broadcast bandwidth/storage media size/display capability/etc) have historically led to these choices on frame rate. The tech is there to change frame rates, but the backend infrastructure is in transition. Also audiences have become accustomed to the frame rates and can perceive high frame rate content as "odd" (soap opera effect is sometimes used to describe it).

    So no Plasma TV's are not superior in this area, they just have different compromises. Each person needs to view and appraise the options to decide which issue they notice less (if at all).
     
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  4. Trollslayer

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    Very useful, thank you.
     
  5. GadgetObsessed

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    I think that motion resolution is one of the most misunderstood aspects of TV specs from reviews. When I first saw that LCDs had a standard motion resolution of 300 lines I assumed that meant that each individual frame somehow only showed 300 lines out of the 1080 available. I assumed that this was due to some limitation of the technology e.g. pixel response time. As plasma could get the full 1080 lines of motion resolution I assumed that plasma was inherently better. (TBH I do prefer plasma over LCD. :) )

    Now I understand that each frame that an LCD and OLED displays is in fact the full 1080 line image. With LCDs and OLEDs each frame persists until the next frame is shown. This is called "sample and hold." Plasmas on the other hand flash each frame for a fraction of a second.

    Now imagine a ball travelling quickly across a screen on a 50hz display. On an LCD/OLED the ball will appear in a frame at one spot and stay there, not moving, for 1/50 of a second. Then it jumps in the next frame to the next spot and stays there for 1/50 of a second, and so on. This motion is inherently "jerky" as opposed to natural fluid motion. Our eyes/brain don't expect this kind of motion and instead track smoothly across the expected line of travel of the ball. As our eyes move across the screen we get a blurring effect which effectively reduces our perceived motion resolution. The faster the movement the worse the effect. This is why LCDs and OLEDs have such low motion resolution scores.

    On plasma screen the image flashes very briefly every 1/50 sec. As it does not persist for the whole 1/50 of a second we don't get the motion blurring effect. Our eyes retinal persistence (we still see a bright flash for a short period after it disappears) means that we don't notice that the screen is not lit most of the time. However, while this flashing effect helps with motion resolution, plasmas are typically rated with 1080 lines of motion resolution, it introduces other issues. Firstly, the screen can appear to flicker. (I don't notice this much except on white screens or when looking slightly away from the set - our peripheral vision is more sensitive to flicker. Some people notice this much more.) Also the three primary colours appear and disappear at slightly different rates. On a fast moving block of colour this means that the leading edge and trailing edge don't have the right mix of colours. For example, if blue illuminates faster and fades more quickly then the leading edge would be too blue and the trailing edge would have too little blue. This is called Dynamic False Contouring (DFC) and this is my main bug bear for motion on plasmas.

    OLED does have an inherent advantage over LCD in that the pixel response time - the time it takes each pixel to change colour between frames, is much, much faster on OLED. On OLED it is essentially instant whereas on LCD it takes a number of milliseconds. A few thousandths of a second may not sound like much but when each frame in 50hz is only for 20 milliseconds it makes a difference. This adds additional unwanted motion effects for LCD.

    There are ways to improve motion resolution on OLED and LCD. Firstly, the more frames you have per second the better. That is why LCD and OLED manufacturers have options for creating intermediate frames to double or quadruple the number of frames. This is called Motion Compensation Frame Interpolation. This increases the perceived resolution - often you will see LCDs getting close or all the way to 1080 with these options enabled. However, it is really hard for an algorithm to work out which part of each frame is moving and correctly interpolate the motion. So often these intermediate frames tend to be more of a blend of the two original frames. This creates things that shouldn't be there - called artefacts. For example, the ball may actually appear twice in the same frame. The second option, is to make the display flash like a plasma. On an LCD this is done by strobing (flashing) the back light. basically, you are making each frame appear and then letting the display go black before the next frame. This is called "Black Frame Insertion" (BFI). This generally, works pretty well but it has a downside in that it reduces the brightness of the screen noticeably. It is becoming less of an issue as LCDs get brighter but it will always reduce the peak brightness which is especially an issue now that we are starting to get High Dynamic Range content which requires an LCD to go up to 1000 nits. (Brightness is measured in "nits" and 1,000 nits can be considered very bright.) OLEDs are inherently less bright than LCDs and BFI, as yet, has not been used by LG.

    Hope that long explanation helps.

    A good site for examining motion issues is the following:

    Blur Busters UFO Motion Tests

    You can see the effect of different frame rates and motion speeds. It has a particularly good demo of eye tracking motion blur.

    Blur Busters UFO Motion Tests

    Look at the moving space ship and the moving black bars blend into one another and become grey. Look at the stationary ship and you can see the black bars. (This demo looks different on a plasma.)
     
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    Last edited: Mar 12, 2016
  6. Trollslayer

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    You get phosphor persistence with plasmas, the same as CRTs which you can't get with LCD or OLED hence the intermediate frames, BFI etc.
     
  7. Zarniwoop69

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    Thanks Gadget, I found your detailed explanation very useful. I certainly prefer motion on my old plasma, but I will have to replace it soon and was looking at an OLED TV. At least now I know what the differences are!
     
  8. bery_451

    bery_451
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    Yeah that's why I noticed motion blur on LCD and OLED compared to Plasma. Plasma motion is always naturally clearer I noticed even in fast pace motion.

    I'm worried that if I invest £thousands in the new OLED tech I might end with a blurry mess when it comes to motion resolution. Blacks are best on OLED but I say motion resolution is far superior unless the viewer wants to see still photos or a slideshow.

    I thought OLED is the perfect display tech but it seems its not.

    So which OLED TV's have BFI method to eliminate this problem? Is BFI the best only method OLED's have in the future?
     
  9. Yappa

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    None of LG's OLED TVs have BFI. Only the 2013 Samsung OLED.
     
  10. GadgetObsessed

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    I spent some time today in Sevenoaks Sound and Vision watching the LG 950 and Panasonic OLED and for what it's worth I didn't notice any particular problems with motion. I thought that overall the motion was just as good as on my Panasonic GT60 and Samsung F8500 plasmas. Until Samsung re-enter the OLED market in 2017/2018 I doubt that there will be an OLED with BFI.

    Till then if you really want BFI then you can go for a Samsung or Sony LCD. (I am not sure if any other LCD manufacturers implement BFI.)
     
  11. bery_451

    bery_451
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    OLED brightness not good as LCD so having BFI on OLED will reduce its brightness even more meaning you can only watch OLED in a dark room at night time.

    In this thread alone there's already 2 weaknesses pointed out on OLED that is motion and brightness. LCD is the best for brightness, OLED is the best for blacks and finally Plasma is best for motion.

    So will there be a new perfect display tech in the future that will combine all these strengths?
    What about SED TV, Laser TV, Quantum TV, Nano TV or whatever?
     
  12. Ian_S

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    Personally I think this is where having more than just LG making OLED TV's comes into play, even if ultimately LG make the panel.

    There's nothing to stop LG, Panasonic, Sony etc. developing new/different processing options to overcome the various problems any display tech inherently has. I don't like frame interpolation techniques much mostly because of the guesswork element, and find other ways to compensate are better to my eyes.

    I'm not sure at this stage I buy into the whole brightness thing being measured purely in maximum light levels, I believe contrast has a more important role to play. As OLED improves (it's still very early on compared to LCD) I'm sure it's absolute brightness levels will increase too.

    For things like football, the best fix IMO will be to move to 4K where we can have proper progressive frames (instead of 1080i which still involves a lot of guesswork) and high frame rates. 4Kp @ 60Hz is going to be a lot better than any of the 'fixes' for your chosen display has, as it will contain much more real info that doesn't need as much guesswork being done to the picture. Of course depending on the display tech, then some may need a little more further massaging than others, but I would imagine all will improve in quality with that kind of source...

    Where I think we are a bit snookered is film where all the legacy content is pretty much 24Hz, and I'm not sure how many films are now shot at the higher 4K frame rate of 48Hz... Also how effective is it on a 48Hz source to simply miss out every other frame to create a 24 Hz version??

    TV broadcast in 50/60p may have the edge here as 1080p downscaled content may be easier to achieve...
     
  13. dave85

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    Brightness is not an issue with OLED since it can produce pure blacks and has a infinite contrast ratio.

    OLED is still a new technology so it's pointless talking about some other 'new perfect display tech'

    This technology just needs time to mature, stop judging it so quickly.
     
  14. bery_451

    bery_451
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    If brightness is not an issue then how come LCD beats OLED in a bright sunny room?

    So you saying give OLED another 5 years to mature and perfect like a bottle of wine. If that's the case why spend £thousands on Beta OLEDs now when you can buy the perfect complete OLED in 5 years at a much cheaper price?
     
  15. Trollslayer

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    Can you provide links?
     
  16. raymondo77

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    In my experience (Samsung JS9000 vs two LG OLED models) that's simply not true.
     
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  17. babator

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    An important thing to note is that BFI requires a pretty high refresh rate to not flicker - otherwise it is like looking at a CRT monitor set to 60 Hz. So usually with TVs it is combined with MCFI (to provide 100/120 Hz refresh rate) or double strobing (flash twice per picture) which can create its own problems (double image type blur).

    Gaming BFI monitors can accept native 120 Hz or even 144 Hz input, but there the problem becomes the massive graphics card performance that is required to drive games at that high frame rate. The image quality is not so great either with LCD, as the pixel transitions may not complete before the next flash. You usually get TN monitors with poor viewing angles and colors, or some specific IPS panels that are just about fast enough for the pixel transitions, but apparently suffer from IPS glow in the corners and some QC issues (perhaps because it is on the bleeding edge of LCD tech).

    OLED gaming monitors with BFI would theoretically be great and would have no issue with motion resolution or pixel transitions.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2016
  18. gazza7474

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    Because if you need a new TV now, you have a choice between LCD and OLED and many would prefer OLED to LCD
     
  19. rogdodge

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    And some folk can't bring themselves to buy OLED. :rotfl:
     
  20. 5to1

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    Because it doesn't.

    I have 5 LCD TV's ranging in age from a couple of years old all the way down to 10 years (we've also had a couple of Plasma sets and 2 LCD sets I no longer have). Not a single one has ever been anywhere near maximum brightness (i.e. above what an OLED or Plasma can achieve). Most of those sets have spent time (I essentially relegate to bedrooms when I get a new one) in rooms that get significant sun during the day.

    The only issue I've actually had is reflections on a sunny day. So ironically, given your claim, the cheapest set with lowest peak brightness performs best in a Sunny room because theres no fancy glass panel.
     
  21. Paul D

    Paul D
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    I think people need to remember the difference between frames and fields when quoting 50/60 fps for current TV etc.
     
  22. bery_451

    bery_451
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    Will there be a new tech that will replace BFI?

    Its disappointing with OLED because I thought OLED's was natively good for motion resolution like plasma was natively good for motion resolution. But it seems by reading this thread that OLED needs BFI for good motion resolution like with LCD's.

    If that's the case them OLED cannot be classed as a true successor to Plasma I say.
     
  23. Trollslayer

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    Instead of BFI maybe they could have a few steps reduction, it would be closer to the persistence of plasma phosphor.
     
  24. ashenfie

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    Seams to be some confusion here. Sample on Hold reduces flicker nothing to do with resolution reduction due to movement.

    Sciences tells that to fully record a movement we need sample at twice the rate of that movement. Science over now you can switch back on now!

    So a 1080P 24fps movie with give poor resolution of anything that moves significantly in less than 80ms. So if something moves 20 pixels within 80ms all 20 pixels will be the same blurred value. I say value not colour as the pixels will be of different colours i.e your RGB. That will leads flickering and non smooth movement.

    So the cleaver guys who make TVs apply all manor of cleaver stuff to reduce these effects. So any Review should test the ability of the TV to avoid flicker/colour/non smooth motion
     
  25. Magnesus

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    Anyone knows how LG deals with displaying 24FPS at 60Hz? Does it have some compensation for the jerks caused by the fact that 60/24 is not an integer? My Sony TV instruction claims that it detect such situation and compensates for it in some of the interpolation (soap opera) modes...
     
  26. GadgetObsessed

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    But sample and hold does affect perceived resolution due to its inherently "jerky" nature as described above. Sample and hold is not a strategy used by LCD/OLED manufacturers to avoid flicker it is just the way that such displays natively work. In the same way as CRTs and plasmas flicker because that is how they natively work - they could not use sample and hold.

    I have never seen that before. I have seen that to sample a wave reliably then the sampling period must be no more than half the wave length, i.e. the frequency of sampling must be twice as high as the maximum frequency that you want to measure. For example, human hearing theoretically goes up to 20kz which is why music is typically sampled at 44.1khz. But that has absolutely nothing to do with motion resolution on a TV??

    Are you confusing the frame rate and the shutter speed that the video is filmed at? If the film speed is 24fps then the slowest physical shutter speed would be 1/24 sec or approx 40ms. In practice the shutter speed can be much higher than this depending upon the light levels. Anything that moves within the shutter period will result in a blurred image. However, that blurred image will be faithfully reproduced in every pixel of the 1080p image.
     
  27. Trollslayer

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    That is the Nyquist limit for signal bandwidth , typically audio and it is 0.45 not 0.5.
    It is typically used for audio not two dimensional data like video.
     
  28. bery_451

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    Apart from BFI and Steps Reduction is there any other similar techologies? If so which is the best overall?
     
  29. Trollslayer

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    I only suggested step reduction as an idea.
    Maybe I should patent it.
     
  30. BigPest2724

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    What did you go for mate? I took my OLED back because of the motion...
     

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