OLED, owned 4 different models. Disappointed.

Discussion in 'OLED TVs Forum' started by MultiRoom, Dec 23, 2017.


    1. MultiRoom

      MultiRoom
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      Having come from a VT30 of 5 years, earlier this year I decided it was time to dip into the OLED market. Generally I keep a TV for 4 or 5 years before replacing it, or at least that's what I've done with the VT30 and the previous 2 [Panasonic] TVs I've owned.

      At the time I made the decision there was nothing available from Panasonic in my price range despite being brand loyal for close to 15 years, I had an upper limit of £2000ish, and so went for the LG55B6v.

      Now before I get started I'll point out that one of the most important features on a larger TV is frame interpolation, engaged at a very low setting to reduce the judder that I'm particularly susceptible to, but appreciate others aren't bothered by it and don't use it. Please can this post not turn into a discussion about interpolation and your individual view point on it, it's been discussed to death on several threads both on and off these forums. If a feature exists on a TV, as buyers we should expect it to work, and we can choose to use it or leave it switched off or not.

      So, I get my B6 home, I'm wowed by the picture, I engage FI (frame interpolation) and start to enjoy the TV for a short time. It wasn't long before I saw a stutter which happened at the same time in content, completely demonstrable. Came to AVForums and found many discussions about it. Rang Richer Sounds, took it back, showed them the problem and they agreed the replace it for the E6 which didn't have the issue and I ended up shelling out an extra £350.

      Get the E6 home and settle into an equally great picture, but before long I see really bad artefacts when engaging FI even to the lowest setting. This was at the beginning of the year and so I decided to live with it, but it was god awful. Some days it seemed like it had got better, other days it was terrible. An otherwise stunning TV that fell short again.

      Fast forward 8 months and I sold the E6 and started hearing the hype surrounding the POS9002, and from what I've read Philips FI is one of the best in the business, and along with the other image processing features I decided to try and bag one when they landed in the UK. To start with they were really difficult to get hold of, so viewing one was not an option. I kept an eye on the JL website and rang a few times a week and eventually got one delivered on 30th November. Initial impressions were not good, the colours where no where near as accurate as the LG, and the calibration controls made me think that a pro calibration would be a bit of a waste of money. Throw into the mix that there are only 3 FI settings and the lowest introduces too much smoothing/SOE as well as artefacts that really aren't any better than the E6 and I was pretty gutted. Other image processing tricks that the 9002 is sold on were just rubbish really, all artificially enhancing the image and at the same time worsening the quality. Noise reduction darker scenes look smeary, it was unusable. There were sharpness and colour enhancements that IMO were just gimmicks, they made images look worse, and so there were all left off. JL wouldn't price match RS so I arranged for it to be sent back for refund and visited RS to discuss my options. The 9002 gets collected this morning.

      While in RS I saw a EZ952 and it looks good. Looking at the FI controls I see a similar level of control as the LG 10 for deblur and 10 for dejudder. I researched a bit more on AVForums and read all the reviews I could find on Google and decided this was the TV for me. I read about the stutter issue that some users had seen and asked advice on the EZ952 thread. Most people don't notice it I'm told and those that do say that it's so infrequent that it's not an issue. Having seen the TV on display in RS (displaying Guradians of the Earth @ 60hz for some reason) I see no issues with stutter, and the FI is as effective as anything I've ever seen. Could I have found the perfect TV, and a Panasonic to boot?

      I get the TV home and hang it on the wall. It's colour accuracy out of the box is like I've not seen before, just unbelievable. The FI performance is great, I was able to set it to the perfect level for different sources, minimal for film , a bit more for TV viewing and so on, and really impressive lack of artefacts. BUT..... that stutter. It is truly terrible and completely not something I can live with. Frame skips and stutters occur at least once every 30 seconds, sometimes several dropped frames or skips in a row for a few seconds. It goes away if you disable FI, but that's not an option for me. For now I have the FI disabled which I've not done on any of the previous OLEDs because it's stutter is just far too distracting. Panasonic are aware of the problem but are remaining tight lipped about if/when they will fix it. I rang them the other day and they recommended I send it back and opt for a different model, so there's not much hope it'll be resolved. I'm giving it until mid January before I send this one back before my 30 days is up. Others have done the same. It affects all Panasonic TVs that use the HCX2 processor, which is new this year. How does this crap get through quality control?

      What do you have to do in this day and age to get a premium TV that performs as such? I'm now seriously considering the Sony A1, obviously at an extra £400/£500, but I've heard it's motion processing FI feature is excellent and displays no faults. Maybe I should have gone for one in the first place rather than tearing my hair out with each of the TVs I've had this past 10 months.

      This is more of a rant than a request for advice or guidance. I know OLED is still in it's infancy, but the processing of the image isn't, and from what ranges from poor implementation to downright faulty and not for for purpose on TVs that are incredibly expensive just p*sses me right off. I'm not overly fussy, I just want a TV that works as described and offers value for money. I never had this issue when I was buying my previous 3 Panasonics, never returned a TV and was always critical yet satisfied with what I'd purchased. I'd love to just put a TV on my wall, switch it on and watch a faultless display.
       
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    2. choddo

      choddo
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      So what models have you had?

      You’ll see plenty of people objecting to certain aspects of the A1 units dedicated thread, just like all TVs.
       
    3. Fx1

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      You cant blame the TV for the frame rate of the content.

      The TV employs tricks to hide 24 fps and that's what they are. Your plasma was OK because of pixel trailing which hides the frame changes. Blame the ass holes who killed 48 fps cinema which debuted in the hobbit movie.

      You are not sensitive to judder you just look for it. Same as any issue. You have tuned yourself in to it.

      Ive turned all that frame crap off because it artifacts.

      I play pc games on a g sync monitor on a 1080ti gpu to get to 100+ frames because low frame rate sucks and there is not much that helps. I don't know what is going to help 24 frames its dog sh*t.
       
    4. choddo

      choddo
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      FYI The hobbit at 48fps (which I was really looking forward to) looked awful.

      It’s different with games. I don’t have gsync (or a 1080ti :) ) but I completely get why it’s good.
       
    5. MultiRoom

      MultiRoom
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      My VT30 was OK because it had frame interpolation that worked. I didn't like watching it without the frame interpolation, the same as I don't like watching my OLEDs without. The judder, IMO was no more or less noticeable on either TV with no motion processing enabled. It was the main reason for upgrading from my 42inch to the 50inch, as the screen got bigger the judder was more noticeable, and so Panasonic's IFC was something I used, and it just worked. The EZ952 and other TVs that house the HCX2 processor were obviously hurried out the door. In this respect I can't tell you how disappointed I am, this would be my perfect TV if it didn't demonstrate this fault. It's otherwise stunning.

      Also, the B6 suffered from a recognised stutter bug which was well documented, the E6 had very poor performance of their TruMotion feature, it worked but it was cr*p and there are pages and pages of disgruntled users discussing it o the LG forum, the 9002's OS was buggy and you couldn't always swap from one image preset to another without switching the TV off, and the recognised bug now on the EZ952 where it drops frames, these aren't inherent features of 24p that we should live with but faults with the delivery of certain features (with the exception of the E6 which worked but performed poorly). If the features don't work, either leave them out or fix them.
       
      Last edited: Dec 23, 2017
    6. Fx1

      Fx1
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      I see no judder though when it's all turned off. I sometimes see frame rate limits when panning in movies but that is all.

      Oled doesn't have black frame insertion and very fast pixel response. Plasma was slow as sh*t pixel response with trails. The trails covered the judder. Not the technology in the screen.
       
    7. ryanvincent

      ryanvincent
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      Many people feel the same and that's because OLED is sample and hold and plasma is impulse based display giving superior motion.
       
    8. jmacc

      jmacc
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      In my opinion your best choice for the smoothest motion on oleds would be the Sony A1.
       
    9. spinaltap

      spinaltap
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    10. MultiRoom

      MultiRoom
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      Some see judder where others don't, I wish I was like you and didn't notice it, but watching a 24p BluRay looks like someone's switched on a strobe at the disco with regular but constant judder.

      I saw judder on my plasma with no IFC engaged, but with IFC I could not see it. That's not the screen tech that's responsible for what I experienced, but the processing that I chose to engage. If you don't notice judder on a plasma with no interpolation engaged then more power to you, OLEDs sample and hold technology makes judder more noticeable to some I'll grant you that, but plasma, LCD, LED and OLED etc all demonstrate telecine judder to differing degrees, the larger the screen the more noticeable.

      Also, some OLEDs do have BFI available, although for the good it does they may as well have left it out because it's horrible. My current EZ952 has a feature called clear motion, which inserts a black frame between each actual frame. It makes me feel physically sick.
       
    11. jmacc

      jmacc
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      I'm also very sensitive to judder, always moaned of it on LG oleds while everyone else say's it's fine.
      The BFI on the A1 makes it dark and flicker when turned on unfortunately, but plenty other motion options on the sony oled to get it dialled in how you like it.
       
    12. MultiRoom

      MultiRoom
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      Do you have an A1? I'm considering getting this one exchanged for one and would be very interested to hear your thoughts, especially as someone who seems to experience judder in the same way as me, and who also used to own an LG where the Tru Motion was just a bit rubbish.
       
    13. MultiRoom

      MultiRoom
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      Thanks for referencing that post, it's really interesting and although he specifically states that it's not the same issue as some are seeing on the Panasonics, the way he describes the way it manifests itself sounds identical to the way it's manifested in my current EZ952.
       
    14. jmacc

      jmacc
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      I had an A1 but returned it due to bad vertical banding, had plenty of Sony flagship tv's over the years.
      The true motion on the LG oleds I had I just left off as it introduces a right mess when activated (to my eyes it does)
       
    15. MultiRoom

      MultiRoom
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      Agreed, with LG it was either TM off and judder, or TM on with breaking up images and other artifacts. Not a great choice to have to make.

      Do you mind me asking what you have now? Did you not want to swap your A1 for a replacement until you got a decent one? As far as I've read banding on the A1s is worse than most other brands, not sure I understand quite why given their origin, but there are good ones out there.
       
    16. jmacc

      jmacc
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      I would love to still have the A1 but I couldn't be bothered swapping and swapping until I possibly get a good one, like you say the banding seems fairly bad on the a1 for some reason, especially the 65".
      Just goy my old crappy 55" lcd on the wall at the moment, I may just get a 65" sony lcd to do me until the end of the year when 2018 tv prices drop.
      looking at the xe9305 65" for around £1750.. obviously no where near as good blacks but acceptable for the price I'm sure, couple that with sweet motion and no bands.. I think that will do me for a year. (think, maybe.. probably order a bandy 2017 oled in a few days time :laugh:)
       
    17. choddo

      choddo
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      I don't think you mean telecine judder. That's referring to the 3:2 pulldown you get when 24fps stuff is converted to 60Hz video.
       
    18. MultiRoom

      MultiRoom
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      You're right. Is the correct term simply 'motion judder'?
       
    19. drdocmatt

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      Everyone has something they don't like about video playback systems because they're all heavily compromised these days.
      Personally, I don't mind watching 24fps content on a plasma without any frame interpolation. Funnily enough it looks exactly like it used to in the cinema.. I've always found frame interpolation objectionable and have only found it useful on minimum settings for TV content, but always off for blu ray. Personally I find the heightened hyper-sharp look of strangely geometric shapes flickering around the edges of everything in motion on my screen a little irritating, but have no issue with the perception of individual frames being presented, one after the other.

      I also don't think it's fair to blame OLED for video processing issues, which the thread title implies even if that's not intended.

      As for pixel trails I have no idea what that's referring to but plasma is well known for having blisteringly fast pixel response (it actually wouldn't work if it didn't). The only thing that's slightly "flattering" about plasma imagery is that on some sets there's dithering applied around low contrast motion, but mostly only on older models.

      One problem I have noted is that as sets become more complex (streaming services, dlna, huge range of video and audio formats etc etc etc) manufacturers have moved towards using general purpose computers running general purpose operating systems, and away from purpose built realtime operating systems on dedicated hardware. The net result is unpredictability in performance, on a level that's way more complex than even the manufacturer has the expertise to solve. Though it provides them huge flexibility in how they control every aspect of the TV operation the video pipeline should always have been implemented on a totally separate processor with its own hardware and custom built software.
       
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    20. asabrag

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      You should try the C7/B7P.
      I had the B6 and sold it to get the B7 just because of Judder.
       
    21. Slugsy01

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      Thank goodness I don’t see the judder, but appreciate it’s tough for many out there.

      LG’s Tru Motion is horrific, but I’ve not had an ounce of bother since turning it off.

      I’m not sure there will be an answer to this issue for a long time to come. LG certainly don’t behave like it’s high on their agenda.

      Most people consistently say Sony is the best for FI and Motion and my in laws A1 is excellent, save for some mild banding that they don’t see and I contain myself pointing it out to them! :D
       
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    22. gbjbaanb

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      I'm not sure you're right here - the Panny has their HCX2 image processing chip, which is the cause of the judder people are complaining about. That's not a general purpose computer, though I imagine the off-the-shelf chipset they use for the rest of the operating system is exactly as you describe.
       
    23. Flecky81

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      I’ve had 4 Oled TVs to since the Panasonic 50vt65, and have been pleased and disappointed. My first one was the first Oled, the LG 55ea980w and loved it, second was the Panasonic 65ez952 and hated it, third was the LG 65 e6v and loved it again and fourth was the LG 65e7v Oled TV and love it.
       
    24. Andyg1989

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      I hate ultra smooth soap opera look.

      Give me judder anyday of week. Every TV I've had the first thing that gets altered is all frame creation turned off before I watch anything. Sony do it the best but still awful. Still looks totally unnatural.
       
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    25. drdocmatt

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      The assumption is that the cause is the chip, but it could just as easily be the driver or the memory bus it's sharing with the rest of the general purpose OS. Think of it as a GPU..
       
      Last edited: Dec 24, 2017
    26. drdocmatt

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      If you showed genuine high frame rate material to a generation they wouldn't miss the judder, but to a generation brought up on 24fps film and 25/30fps TV dressed up with a 50/60hz field rate they go "this looks wrong".
      I think the thing that most videophiles object to the most is that the "soap opera effect" is really just an obvious sign that some awful video interpolation thing is happening and it heralds artifacts galore. People wouldn't complain about the processing if it wasn't so uniformly bad, and didn't mean the TV was "reinterpreting" the material rather than simply displaying it as delivered.
       
    27. jmacc

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      I don't see soap opera effect at all on a Sony with motion set to low.
      Also no tearing etc like LG tv's

      Sony motion is a god send for me :)
       
    28. staffy 2

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      I have my first OLED an E7 that cost £1499 and had it a month now and watched over 500 hours on it and not one judder or any bands it’s just the most perfect screen I’ve ever seen.
      My neighbour came round today and was gobsmacked by it just on itv hd so I put Blue Planet 2 on in UHD and HDR and she said it’s the best picture she’s ever seen it’s better than looking through a window she was mesmerised.
      I dreaded going OLED after all the problems on here but my tv is perfect with no swaps it’s my first purchase so just shows you can get a perfect one first time
       
    29. jmacc

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      No doubts oleds are beautiful, some people are sensitive to the motion processing done by LG though.
      Sony not so much as they do excellent motion processing as confirmed by just about any review of a sony tv ever.


      Merry Christmas :thumbsup:
       
    30. staffy 2

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      Had Sony tvs all my life and yes always great motion so I was very nervous going to LG but so happy to say there’s no difference it’s just as good at motion in my eyes and I’m really critical of faults but a month in I’m just lost for words it’s exceeded my expectations so glad I’m not as sensitive as some but I usually see any faults I’m ocd but I’ve seen nothing.
      Do you think sometimes people sit watching every centimetre of the screen looking for problems when if they just got sucked into a film watching actors and action instead of the background they’d enjoy the tv a lot more.
      My apologies to people who do have vision problems and sensitivity to things I’m in no way meaning to insult you and acknowledge your problems and feel really sorry for-merry Christmas everyone
       

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