OLED Burn In Risk

P-P-S-S

Well-known Member
I was talking about deleting the thread I wrote not yours.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I am glad Dodgexander was able to answer your questions.

Apologies, I definitely misunderstood you. :blush: Sorry for my harsh reply.
 

P-P-S-S

Well-known Member
Panasonic's last high end TV was my own TVl; the DX902 from 2016. They place all efforts into OLED in the high end now.

Sony's high end TV is the 2018 ZF9, they have a XG9505 model which is similar to the Samsung Q80R overall.

LG's LCDs are not to be compared with other models, even the SUHD ones are poor overall options with picture quality and have poor HDR picture quality especially.

Dodgexander, thank you very much for the detailed reply. What I meant was what's the high end OLED model from Sony/Panasonic/LG?
 

zeppelino

Distinguished Member
Dodgexander, thank you very much for the detailed reply. What I meant was what's the high end OLED model from Sony/Panasonic/LG?

There’s no high end oled from Sony or LG - all their sets use the same oled panel. The only difference between their oleds is features and “improved” sound as you go through the range.

Panasonic offer the GZ2000 which is a specially tweaked oled panel. However it’s not inherently different compared to all oled panels.
 

Dodgexander

Moderator
Dodgexander, thank you very much for the detailed reply. What I meant was what's the high end OLED model from Sony/Panasonic/LG?
No, only LGs have auto logo dimming, is that what you meant?

Or, if you meant other OLED models, zep has answered above.
 

jpr141

Well-known Member
I see it mentioned here by Dodgexander that there isn't much difference between cheaper LCD and the most expensive ones. Unless you watch HDR. Is this really the case, Dodgexander?

Do you think I would notice any general picture improvements from a Sony xf9005 or Samsung q80/85/90, over my current Sony xd93?
 

jpr141

Well-known Member
There’s no high end oled from Sony or LG - all their sets use the same oled panel. The only difference between their oleds is features and “improved” sound as you go through the range.

Panasonic offer the GZ2000 which is a specially tweaked oled panel. However it’s not inherently different compared to all oled panels.
The Sony ag9 has some picture improvements over the ag8, it being a master series. No?
 

zeppelino

Distinguished Member
Hmm. Pro reviews seem to rate the ag9 higher picture wise. Mind you that could also be said of the c9 over the b9.

Upscaling might be slightly better but if you’re spending this much then all that should matter is 4K/hdr performance and all are nigh on identical.

There’s an av forums podcast that discusses the GZ2000 and compares it to the ‘lesser’ models. Definitely worth a listen.
 

Dodgexander

Moderator
I see it mentioned here by Dodgexander that there isn't much difference between cheaper LCD and the most expensive ones. Unless you watch HDR. Is this really the case, Dodgexander?
Yes, LCDs have been able to reproduce SDR to the pinnacle for some time now, even cheaper edge lit models. Its a bad idea to spend a lot of money on an LCD unless you use a lot of HDR.

Its different with OLEDs, since they all use the same panel, the technology is different to LCDs which is now 20 years old, so the biggest gains overall in picture quality will come from an OLED rather than an LCD.

WIth HDR, higher end LCDs have the advantage of getting a lot brighter with good local dimming; which is more important as they get brighter. A brighter than OLED presentation of HDR is what lets them rival OLEDs more.
 

P-P-S-S

Well-known Member
The way I see it so far is like this:

The LCD screens represented by Qled have their limitations in terms of blacks. LCD is an old tried and tested technology but that doesn't mean that it is out of date. On the contrary, it still has many advantages over the competitors. Nevertheless, in order to take advantage of the best it has to offer one has to buy one of the top of the range models Q80, 85, 90. Samsung has no competition either with this type of panel which could explain the high prices which are higher than OLED. On the negative side the Qled screens are not much better than much cheaper LCDs for SD viewing which is the Average Joe's main viewing. Currently Qleds do not have HDMI 2.1 either wihc makes them less future proof.

The OLED screens are much better at black levels and their prices fair better than Qled. However, the technology is still in its early stages and there are several shortcomings. The main and most obvious one is the dreaded burnin issue. There is much discussion on the web regarding whether this issue it is obverblown or not. Leaving aside its degree, The fact is that burnin is real. The manufacturers' reluctance to cover it under warranty reinforces this fact and is concerning. Dimming logos and screensavers are fair enough but having to turn the TV off after 2-3 hours of watching so it can perform the maintenance cycle is ridiculous.

I have watched a few review videos of various brnads of OLED screens and I have to say that the screens are like a mirror and reflect anything. In order to be able to enjoy TV one must do so in a dark room. A hell of a lot worse than an LCD screen.

So at this moment in time I am not prepared to throw £1.5k and above to any of these screens. If OLED or Qled want my money then they would have to try harder to earn it. I will wait to see what next year's models bring. If Qled continues to improve and includes 2.1 then I will be very tempted. Afterall, there has to be a reason why Samsung decided against OLED and stuck with LCD technology.

Until then, as they say in Dragon's Den, I'm Out!
 

Dodgexander

Moderator
The way I see it so far is like this:

The LCD screens represented by Qled have their limitations in terms of blacks. LCD is an old tried and tested technology but that doesn't mean that it is out of date. On the contrary, it still has many advantages over the competitors. Nevertheless, in order to take advantage of the best it has to offer one has to buy one of the top of the range models Q80, 85, 90. Samsung has no competition either with this type of panel which could explain the high prices which are higher than OLED. On the negative side the Qled screens are not much better than much cheaper LCDs for SD viewing which is the Average Joe's main viewing. Currently Qleds do not have HDMI 2.1 either wihc makes them less future proof.

The OLED screens are much better at black levels and their prices fair better than Qled. However, the technology is still in its early stages and there are several shortcomings. The main and most obvious one is the dreaded burnin issue. There is much discussion on the web regarding whether this issue it is obverblown or not. Leaving aside its degree, The fact is that burnin is real. The manufacturers' reluctance to cover it under warranty reinforces this fact and is concerning. Dimming logos and screensavers are fair enough but having to turn the TV off after 2-3 hours of watching so it can perform the maintenance cycle is ridiculous.

I have watched a few review videos of various brnads of OLED screens and I have to say that the screens are like a mirror and reflect anything. In order to be able to enjoy TV one must do so in a dark room. A hell of a lot worse than an LCD screen.

So at this moment in time I am not prepared to throw £1.5k and above to any of these screens. If OLED or Qled want my money then they would have to try harder to earn it. I will wait to see what next year's models bring. If Qled continues to improve and includes 2.1 then I will be very tempted. Afterall, there has to be a reason why Samsung decided against OLED and stuck with LCD technology.

Until then, as they say in Dragon's Den, I'm Out!
Not sure if you know already but SD itself is not the same as SDR. The same can be said with HD, which is not the same as HDR.

OLED, being a different technology from LCD brings more to the table with overall picture quality, with all sources. It can make content you viewed before look a lot better than an LCD just because its new technology. Watching TV on a display that can dim each pixel can make remarkable changes to what you watch. So really, an OLED will give most people the biggest upgrade in all areas compared to an LCD TV will, even a high end LCD.

By comparison, LCD TVs like Samsung's higher end LCD TVs (QLEDs as they call them)..or high end LCDs from Sony, don't really compete with OLEDs for picture quality overall, where they do compete is when you use HDR content (again, not to be confused with HD) as they can get a lot brighter and can have more of an impact. Its arguable though and depends on the person whether the impact from this high brightness is as good as the impact of pixel by pixel dimming on an OLEDs...which is why in TV shootouts you often get people prefer OLEDs with HDR than higher end, more expensive LCDs.

Regarding reflections. Never, ever judge a TV from what you see in videos. All OLEDs have good anti reflection filters which cannot be said about all LCD TVs. OLEDs can also get a lot brighter than most LCD TVs, include older models. Its true that the higher end Samsung LCDs are the best at reducing reflections, but its the Q80R and above that really make the biggest difference. Some mid range LCD TVs may sustain a higher amount of brightness longer, especially if its full-screen...but that doesn't mean you won't get problems with reflections on those either.

Burn in and warranty, its no different to it was in the Plasma era, the fact that they developed OLEDs to have compensation cycles in standby is only a good thing, if they could have done this in the Plasma TV era they would have. Anything they can do to reduce the risk, the better. Its nothing new though that TVs have not been covered for burn in damage. Be those LCDs or Plasma TVs before them. They can't offer such a thing on warranty because they don't know how everyone is going to use the TV. If they covered burn in within warranty then people could literally be using the TVs with static content on a regular basis and still get their TV repaired or replaced. It just won't happen and hasn't happened throughout the plasma TV era either.

This thread is about educating and hopefully helping people decide if they are going to be suspect to burn in risk themselves, and not to be used for anything more than that. I've already made it clear once that if there is nothing to post that doesn't involve either helping you make your own decision based on your own usage, or helping others then it has no place to be posted here.

There are already tonnes of post in this thread alone where we have already discussed the ins and outs and unless you think there is something I have missed including something from the opening post there should be no more discussion on the overall technology at all. There should be enough info here and elsewhere online to help people decide if OLED is for them or not, if its not, then simply buy an LCD instead. There are still a few decent LCD options around still, even though Panasonic, LG and Philips don't really make high end LCDs any more, at least Sony and Samsung still do.
 

Unopinionated

Active Member
Dodge do you know if the C6 and C7 TVs have Logo Luminance Adjustment that runs in the back ground. I hear conflicting reports from Forums. Would appreciate your input.
Owners on Forums say their static logos go dim after 2 minutes on C6 and C7 TVs. Is this correct?
 

Dodgexander

Moderator
Dodge do you know if the C6 and C7 TVs have Logo Luminance Adjustment that runs in the back ground. I hear conflicting reports from Forums. Would appreciate your input.
Owners on Forums say their static logos go dim after 2 minutes on C6 and C7 TVs. Is this correct?
I'm confident that the 2017 and 2016 models definitely do not have the logo dimming feature, it was added only in 2018.

If their logos are dimming, its more likely global dimming, which is still how TVs that don't have the logo dimming dim when there's logos...eg the Sony OLEDs.
 
It's a hot topic right now and you can understand why, so you have £1500+~ to spend on a new TV, there is a TV that hits all the boxes and its an OLED...but..

Oh my god no! Burn in is not covered by warranty, this means I am going to have a problem!!!

Contrary to how it may read sometimes both online in general and here at AVF, burn in is not a common problem with OLEDs, certainly no more of a common problem than it was in the Plasma days.
This forum and the internet in general is a place where people mostly come when they have a problem, there aren't many cases on the forum (or online for that matter) where there is an incentive for someone to tell us how fantastic their OLED is and how they haven't suffered from burn in. People naturally report when they have a problem, not when they don't!
The internet is a wealth of information that can make you believe any TV or any problem is a big one if you search long and hard enough. It's a little similar to when you open a newspaper to page 3, you know what you are getting.

Not only that, but OLEDs now are the TV to own, they are at their lowest in price they have ever been and they offer upgrades for most people in all areas compared to LCDs at a price where not only enthusiasts can afford them, but many regular Joes like you or I too.
In 2017 they have sold crazy well. Not only sold now by LG, but Panasonic, Sony and Philips too. LG themselves offer the most attractive prices and took a massive leap in the high end market share over Samsung in 2017.

So what do you get on the internet and here on AVF when a TV sells so much?

You are more likely to read an issue, simply because they sold more OLEDs to begin with!!
Believe me, if you moderated on the forums you would see. The OLED related threads (and arguments/disagreements) are two fold compared to any other type of TV. Most of the discussion and traffic here is directed in OLED owners threads!!

The same can be said about every good selling TV though. In 2017 many people reported problems with the Sony XE9005 and its frame repeat issue. Would this be such a hot topic if Sony didn't sell as many TVs? No.

In 2016 the best selling TV by far was the Samsung KS7000 and it was the same again that year, many problems reporting poor build quality, panel issues, motion stutter. If you sell a TV so well, you will see more problems online...it does not mean the TV is a bad buy, often it can seem that way but usually if a TV sells well, it does so for a reason.

It does not mean there is more likely to be a problem just because a TV sells more.

If you look at failure rates or conducted a survey of every OLED owner most people will tell you they haven't even noticed temporary image retention, let alone burn in!


So what do you need to ask yourself when it comes to burn in? What can help you decide whether you risk burn in or not?

Reasons you may suffer from burn in:

You have unusually invariable viewing patterns:
  • Do you like to leave the news channel on all day?
  • Do your children often watch cartoons and leave a cartoon channel on with a static logo in the corner for hours?
  • Do you often play the same video game that has a static hud in the corner for hours?
  • Do you like to use your television for productivity and spend hours looking at the windows taskbar?
You could tick all the boxes above and not be affected by burn in. Burn in isn't just about the length of which you show static/common images, but also how often and how regularly you do.

You have unusually invariable daily and weekly viewing patterns:
  • You are a one channel kind of guy, you hate change and like to have that news channel on for hours at a time every day for hours at a time for weeks.
  • Your children are addicted to the same cartoon channel and you've lost control over them, they relentlessly watch the cartoon channel with that static logo each day for hours, they refuse to go to bed.
  • You are that guy who likes long gaming sessions, but you don't just have the odd one, you like to game for hours at a time as soon as you get home at night until you drop. You never get fed up with a game and you like to play only one game at a time.
  • You intend to use the TV for content creation and as a PC monitor every day, you need to meet those deadlines each week and that requires a lot of time in front of your OLED to get that final project finished. You are a work addict and use your TV this way every day.
Reasons you will not suffer from burn in:
  • You don't meet both the viewing patterns and the daily and weekly viewing patterns above and just use the TV with variation like most people do. Even if you are a big gamer you have a variation in what you play and you use the TV for more than one task.
  • You are sensible and don't leave the same image on the TV for hours.
  • You don't turn off the screensaver feature of the TV.
  • You don't whack the OLED backlight on full and use VIVID picture mode and have your TV incorrectly calibrated.
  • When you pause your TV/Game or leave a static image the TV's screen-saver will appear after 2 minutes. You can also use a source screen size, eg windows/fire tv screensaver etc.
Here are some useful notes and Links:
What happens when you abuse your OLED TV.
What happens when you use your OLED TV for normal tasks.
OLED TV Reliability: Burn-In, & More | LG USA

Useful facts:
  • The risk of burn in with OLEDs is actually less than it was in the Plasma days. It's no more likely to happen now than then.
  • Its not only OLEDs that can suffer from burn in, abuse any type of display (even LCD) and you can get burn in. Just take a look at some of the old LCDs in pubs.
  • Youtube is full of people claiming to be experts and misleading people, do not believe everything you watch on Youtube. I don't want to name and shame but there are some really laughable content creators out there who literally will say anything to make a few extra views. Do not believe their rubbish! I am sure if you read this, you know the kind of channels I am talking about.

Hopefully this helps people make an informed decision and sorts out a lot of the scare mongering and misinformation out there about OLEDs. It should be pretty easy to tell for most people if they think burn in will be a problem or not, just ask yourself the right questions.

If there is anything I have missed or anything you think I should add, please let me know!

EDIT# 16th July 2019.

Its contained in the rtings.com real life test linked above but there is integral info provided by the rtings.com burn in test here:


If you use their method of calculation, you can effectively calculate from your own usage patten how soon it may be that you encounter any burn in on an OLED. In the example they use it would take 7 years of playing the same computer game with the same hud before you start to be at risk. Obviously this is not going to match many peoples usage as most people will not play the same game for 7 years, but it gives you an idea from being able to self-calculate how prone you may be to the risk.

EDIT* 18/06/20 - John Lewis offer accidental damage insurance you can pay extra for which includes OLED burn in. If you feel you are at risk of burn in, I'd suggest buying this along with an OLED directly from them.


Salutes Dodgexander, what did you mean in this point?


  • You don't whack the OLED backlight on full and use VIVID picture mode and have your TV incorrectly calibrated.

OLED backlight is a setting you mean? and vivid picture mode when should it be set?

Not wanting to annoy, just when you have lot of time to spare comment if you can

So helpful these guides (y)
 
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Dodgexander

Moderator
It means for the most part you won't be using the TV with the OLED set to high backlight, you definitely shouldn't be using VIVD picture mode either which will raise the brightness at the cost of picture accuracy compared to movie picture mode, for instance.

Only time OLED backlight will be on full will be in HDR mode, so again only need to worry if you are using HDR a lot on the TV with content with a lot of static elements.
 

MEGATAMA

Well-known Member
How is situation with 2018 sets....any report of pixel degradation?
 
Any TV since 2017 is pretty steadfast when it comes to burn in prevention. Pixel degradation has everything to do with how the TV is used.

Just discussing now, why since 2017 are steadfast about burn in prevention? It was when it was implemented the softwares of burn in prevention, like pixel refresh, entire black screensaver, Screen Shift , and so? Or is it because another reason?
 

Petey20

Active Member
If you are looking for the kind of TV you can keep on for 6-8 hour a day, every day and not have gaps where its in standby inbetween then that is when you may consider going for an LCD.
This has pretty much confirmed OLED isn't for me if this the case. Wish I saw this months ago 🤦‍♂️ would have saved a lot of headaches!
How long would you need to leave the TV in standby for, until it was "safe" to use again?
 

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