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Old high tech vs new cheaper tech

J

jookster

Guest
Maybe I`m boring some people by keep drumming on with similar questions but how does say a Lexicon DC-1`s processing compare to a Denon 2805? How much has technology moved on?


Any responses gratefully received!

Thanks
 

gIzzE

Distinguished Member
I think the processing in the Denon would be better, but, the other bits which are just as important like the Dacs etc. would be better in the Lexicon.
 

severnsource

Established Member
jookster said:
I thought the DACS basically are the processing?

Not in a surround decoder. For decoding the marix schemes you have to split the 2 channels into however many outputs you have, there will usually be frequency response modification going on, variable signal delays, amplitude modulation (aka steering) possibly dialogue normalisation.

Dolby digital in theory doesn't need much processing, but it still needs decompressing; if haven't got 5.1 speakers there will be matrixing needed, you still need delays to compensate for speaker positioning, etc.

Bill
 
J

jookster

Guest
interesting Bill, what you think of the old Lexicon vs the processing part of Denon 2805?
 

Thunder

Established Member
Digital to analogue converters are very different from a DSP (digital signal processor) DACs change digital information fed to them by the DSP chip set into an analogue signal that is then fed out to the amplification. The DSP takes the digital information fed to it by your DVD player and using a complicated mathimatical process decodes the information into 5.1 channels or whatever sound mode your using :) Its not all about chips and processing power. A large part of sound quality is down to circuit board design, signal isolation, the quality of caps and resistors used, stability and quality of power supply. All these factors are what make the real difference. This is why for example a Tag or Meridian processor of three or four years ago will still kick the ass of a brand spankin new Denon with all singing and dancing super powerfull DSP chip set :thumbsup:
 

gIzzE

Distinguished Member
Exactly, what you have to remember is the processing has moved on considerably, but the things that really change the sound, board layout, power supply, capacitors etc. etc. have not.

Listen to a decent top end processor in Pro Logic and it can sound better than the same film on a cheap amp using the DTS soundtrack.
 
J

jookster

Guest
Most interesting , but um any particular comment on something as old as the Lexicon DC-1 say the 20 bit version!! :lease: :smashin:
 

Thunder

Established Member
Im affraid Ive never heard one so could'nt comment mate. but they did have a hell of a rep. As a guess, I would say matched with quality amplification it would take on and probably beat most integrateds :)
 

gIzzE

Distinguished Member
If the amp is good then I would take a DC1 over a 2805 every day of the week. But you are not comapring like with like to be fair. You need to look at the prices, a DC1 for say £400 needs an amp, somthing like a Parasound 1205 for maybe £600 bring the total to £1000.

I had in my system a Denon A1 and a DC1 (20bit) with a Parasound 855 (85wpc) and this was definitely better than the £2500 Denon, which has got to tell you something.
I then used a 2205 amp and this was a hell of a jump. Then changed to a Meridian 568.2 processor and the difference was startling, I was very cautious about going from a processor that was going to give me £600 back to one costing me £2600, it was one of those buys where I was a little nervous whilst plugging it in, would I hear any differnce? Had I just wasted the best part of £2000? Was I going to get that sinking sick feeling when you know it isn't what you expected?
I had heard the Meridian vs the Tag vs Arcam vs MC1 and thought it was without doubt the best, but that was in a store, not living with it in my room, with my kit etc.
The moment I plugged it in I was amazed, the detail was unreal, the dynamics where nothing short of scary, and teh soundstage was like nothing I had heard before in multichannel. I would have happily paid the full £4300 for it, and still would if I had to replace it.

Then I bought a Cinepro 3K6 to replace the Parasound power amp, again I had the same doubts, I sold the 2205 for £900 and the Cinepro was costing me a lot more than that. But I had heard one before and loved it with music, so bought it without listening to it in my system.
WOW!!! That was without a doubt the single best upgrade I have ever made, for the first time with music I really knew what people meant when they say you get a sense of air with the recording, the soundstage was unreal, I stopped using trifield mode for music and went back to straight stereo, the detail within the recording was doubled but the whole thing was so, so much smoother, although it had more attack and pace to it.
And for films? Well the Cinepro was/is widescreen reviews reference amp, Dolby use it for their demonstrations this is taken from am SMR forum report a couple of years ago which pretty much sums up the Cinepro for movies, now if only they could get some design ideas for the casing from Tag or Chord or similar....

Dolby and Monitor Audio where showing off the 3k6Se II in impressive displays at the CES .Dolby told me at the booth that , they are extremely impressed and consider the 3k6Se II the top in amplification resolution . They use Cinepro for all their displays and for reference testing including the new Cedia regional DVD audio displays which they will be doing around the country starting soon .The term used when I asked what they thought of the amps was " Its our Reference product " . Dolby will use The New Cinepro Forcefield system to show off DVD audio at the CEDIA Regionals this year .
Monitor Audio had Krell amps powering their display but when Cinepro gave them a 3k6Se II and a PowerPro20 they returned the Krells back . It was funny because Cinepro ,Krell ,Monitor Audio where all close to each other .
I would not swap my 3k6Se for anything I have heard regardless of the money .If you are serious about audio try one of these amps because they are in a class of their own .


I would look at buying a processor and power amp as a starting block, you can build on it, I sold my 20bit DC1 2 years ago for £600 and I bet he could get £500 back for it now, I paid £500 for my power amp and just seen one go for more, my mate bought a Denon 3802 at the same time for £800 and has just sold it for £130!
Which was the sensible buy?

Jookster, I would buy knowing you can sell on for little or no loss as when the time for upgrading arises, just go for it mate. :)

Although I would buy Meridian 565/561 over a DC1 ;)
 
J

jookster

Guest
Thanks Giz for your long reply! Just to quiz your brains a little more why the 565? over the DC-1 preference, a 565 went for 400 quid on ebay, maybe I should of got that after all! Also how do you feel about DTS, I can get a DC-1 without it pretty cheap, any comment?

Thanks again
 

gIzzE

Distinguished Member
I was going to go for a 561 as the next processor after my DC1 as I use my system for music too and the Meridian is far superior than the DC1 for this, this is when I first heard the 568, it was there when I was demoing the 561 and I thought I would have a listen. Big mistake, it ended up costing me an extra £1500! But well worth it.

The 561 is basically a 565 and the 562 switcher in one box.

I would want DTS personally, and I think you may struggle to move it on without DTS in the future, depends how cheap it is. If you are talking £350 then I suppose it doesn't matter, if you are talking more then I would be cautious.
 
J

jookster

Guest
I`m kinda worried that even at around £350 selling in the future may be difficult to not make much of a loss.

Music isn`t an issue for me - at least not with a processor since I don`t mind reconnecting cables back to my passive preamp!
 

lowrider

Standard Member
IMHO, the processor part of receivers is not a big problem, particularlly if used as processor only, the main problem is the amplification, and no current enough for everything...
 

gIzzE

Distinguished Member
I agree that you have to get the right amp,if not your speakers will have loose bass and the whole thing will fall apart, but, the processor will give the over all sound to your system.
There is such a differnce between say a Meridian, Tag, Lexicon, Proceed etc. etc.
You need to get that right before you can move on.

I love the way you say that with your Krell pre/pro! :) ;)
 

lowrider

Standard Member
Sure processors sound different, but I started with an Onkyo receiver, then added Rotel power, big difference, then TAG processor, small difference comparing DD or DTS, even stereo using direct mode on receiver, but it didnt have DPLII wich I loved with the TAG and now with the Krell...

This was the basic TAG, the DP was a huge improvement, the Krell is different, somethings better, others worst...
 

lowrider

Standard Member
You are right, with the Onkyo, a DV88 sounded better using its own DACs, not with the TAG...
 

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