Oculus's embarassing direction for VR

Thug

Moderator
My quote specifically said
"Lets see in a months time when they're released if the lenses are from Valve or if HP decided with a few months to go, to revamp and redesign the lenses by themselves. ".
No where in that announcement does it state they've dumped Valve. Quite the opposite, they said we can't wait for you to look forward to Valve optics.

But they did decide a few months ago to revamp them (obviously not by themselves but in conjunction with Valve due to their original ones not being good enough.)
You also said...
I'm going to take a wild guess I'll be right and you'll be wrong.
I have never said that they are not going for Valve, only that i didnt see where they said that they were still going with them (to which you have correctly pointed out that they are).

After all the testing in our labs and by our VR team at home, these are some of the elements we are most excited about you trying out:

  • 2160x2160 per eye panel resolution
  • Render resolution and graphics powered by PC GPUs
  • Superb Valve optics
  • Industry leading audio designed by Valve
  • Enhanced ergonomics
  • Upcoming VR support for Microsoft Flight Simulator

A few updates we have made to the product since we first announced Reverb G2:

  • We have updated the lenses to reduce the Fresnel ring reflections and improve clarity.
  • The menu button on the controllers is now domed so you can distinguish between the Windows and Menu buttons by touch.
  • In addition to the full size to mini display port adapter, a USB-C® to USB-A adapter will be included in every box.
  • Our Engineers found an opportunity to lower persistence without lowering brightness and this required higher power draw, so the HP Reverb G2 will require the adapter to be plugged into the wall.





From the link you posted.

What do you think they mean by superb valve optics if they don't mean the lenses?

Do you not think it makes more sense that they further worked with Valve to refine the optics to reduce reflections and increase clarity rather than trash the lenses and work from scratch? Otherwise why are they excited for users to use superb valve optics?
Yes i admit i missed that part.
I have NEVER said that they were going to trash the lenses and start from scratch.

Why do your posts so confrontational and come across as you being such an angry man?
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
But they did decide a few months ago to revamp them (obviously not by themselves but in conjunction with Valve due to their original ones not being good enough.)
You also said...
I'm going to take a wild guess I'll be right and you'll be wrong.
I have never said that they are not going for Valve, only that i didnt see where they said that they were still going with them (to which you have correctly pointed out that they are).


Yes i admit i missed that part.
I have NEVER said that they were going to trash the lenses and start from scratch.

Why do your posts so confrontational and come across as you being such an angry man?

I have never said that they are not going for Valve, only that i didnt see where they said that they were still going with them (to which you have correctly pointed out that they are).

  • Superb Valve optics

Well, at least that settled it.

Why do your posts so confrontational and come across as you being such an angry man?

Not sure. I just try to be as matter of fact and logical as possible. If it comes across as angry, I can asure you I'm not lol.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Yup, Insight is pretty incredible.

And you don't need ANY lights on with Insight too. Only realised that when I started playing No Man's Sky in daylight and took my headset off a while later to find myself sitting in the dark 😲😂😂😂

Makes sense because the Touch controllers use IR LEDs 😁

If the G2 had released before the Rift S I might have got one, but didn't think it was worth the price to get a second headset when my current one, thanks to supersampling which can get me a similar (but not as good obviously!) IQ.

Like I've said, I'm happy with my Rift S, I'm only considering getting a Quest 2 for development purposes.


I do agree with you snowdog in that I feel inside-out tracking is the way forwards for VR.

The valve light house trackers, although being best in class for accuracy and having the most advanced controllers available, do feel very inconvienant, especially when it comes to drilling holes, mounting them, and also does limit the portability of the headset. It feels like an 'olden day' type thing. I still laugh at how I set up my old CV1 sensors all around the room and had so many USB wires coming from my PC. In hindsight it was stupid as hell. The light house trackers are obviously a bit more convienant than that.. but still far from ideal. Outside of accuracy and performance, I don't know why people think they're amazing. They're inconvienant, prone to occlusion I'd take a refined inside-out over it anyday.. sadly I don't think we're quite there with inside out yet to say its matches the the light houses.

If someone gave me a HP Reverb G2 with Index controllers which relied on inside out tracking and had the tracking accuracy of the Rift S (maybe slightly improved), I'd happily purchase it.
 
I think it's only a matter of time before Valve ditch the Lighthouses. They're too expensive.

The problem they're going to face when they do eventually switch to inside out tracking is that they're going to be way behind the competition when it comes to tracking accuracy.

Let's say, for example, that Valve release the Index 2 in 2022 with 2.5K/4K displays and inside out tracking for $599/£599 with inside out tracked Index controllers.

By that time the Machine Learning from Oculus and Microsoft would have had 3 year and 4 years worth of tracking data to work with and Valve will be starting right at the beginning.

And there's no guarantee that they'll even release an Index 2 either, given their history of abandoning hardware in the past.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I think it's only a matter of time before Valve ditch the Lighthouses. They're too expensive.

The problem they're going to face when they do eventually switch to inside out tracking is that they're going to be way behind the competition when it comes to tracking accuracy.

Let's say, for example, that Valve release the Index 2 in 2022 with 2.5K/4K displays and inside out tracking for $599/£599 with inside out tracked Index controllers.

By that time the Machine Learning from Oculus and Microsoft would have had 3 year and 4 years worth of tracking data to work with and Valve will be starting right at the beginning.

And there's no guarantee that they'll even release an Index 2 either, given their history of abandoning hardware in the past.


Why would Valve ditch the lighthouses when they're sold out and people keep buying them?

You can cry about the expense as much as you like but the Index has had a waiting list to order it since it was announced and nearly 18 months on, people still are waiting patiently for it.

As much as you think its too expensive, plenty of people are queuing up for an Index for the last 18 months because they think its worth the money. This is probably due to the lack of valuable competition which match Valve on a headset, tracking and controller basis. Sadly this hasn't changed with the G2 which has the achielles heel of the controllers being poor.

I think TBH Valve are fully invested in lighthouse technology and will likely provide added benefits to light house tracking rather than ditch it. Afterall, they are a PC-Gaming focussed company. They couldn't care less about portable VR, just similar to how they don't care about portable PC gaming.

They're not going to release an Index 2 with inside out tracking and no support for light house tracking. They're going to release an update to the Index, god knows when, but it will be backwards compatible with the Index controllers and light houses. This is not Oculus we're talking about who throw hardware in the dustbin every generation. Also, as of right now and for the next 24 months (at a minimum) the lighthouse tracking is best in class. They're not going to throw that away to play with inside out, and when they do, they'll likely collaborate with microsoft to get the tracking working well.

Also likely if we get an index 2.. it'll likely going to come sooner than 3 or 4 years.

Oculus are STILL playing catchup on:
1. Refresh rate
2. Glasses slider, support, build quality
3. Refresh rate
4. Vertical FOV
5. Horizontal FOV
6. Finger tracking
7. Tracking accuracy
8. Controller input methods
9. Black levels
10. Contrast and colours
11. far far inferior audio quality

etc. etc.

They can machine learn inside out tracking as much as they like; Valve are lightyears ahead of them in terms of what they've brought to the table for consumers and have the added benefit of not working to a specific social media targetting price point of £299 or £399.,

I do agree with the ?Index 2. Reassuringly is that they've worked with HP, which means they're still developing lenses and hardware so likely are going to release a headset. But the uncertainity is not great, I agree.



My comment was more inclined to my own preference. I like inside out tracking because I don't like the effort of mounting sensors. However don't misconstrue this as me be-littling light house tracking. Its the best in class tracking solution with pinpoint accuracy, gigantic playspace coverage and is backwards compatible and the lynchpin of the valve based native steamVR ecosystem.
 

Atmos

Well-known Member
I think it's only a matter of time before Valve ditch the Lighthouses. They're too expensive.

The problem they're going to face when they do eventually switch to inside out tracking is that they're going to be way behind the competition when it comes to tracking accuracy.

Let's say, for example, that Valve release the Index 2 in 2022 with 2.5K/4K displays and inside out tracking for $599/£599 with inside out tracked Index controllers.

By that time the Machine Learning from Oculus and Microsoft would have had 3 year and 4 years worth of tracking data to work with and Valve will be starting right at the beginning.

And there's no guarantee that they'll even release an Index 2 either, given their history of abandoning hardware in the past.

Quite a story your tell your self there.

First off it was Valve who started with inside out tracking before Oculus was a thing.

Valve.jpg
 
When did I say that Oculus invented the thing?

Valve may have STARTED with inside out tracking but they dropped it years ago. When they switch to inside out tracking they're going to be years behind.

It's going to happen, it's just a matter of WHEN not IF.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
When did I say that Oculus invented the thing?

Valve may have STARTED with inside out tracking but they dropped it years ago. When they switch to inside out tracking they're going to be years behind.

It's going to happen, it's just a matter of WHEN not IF.


I really doubt this.

By the time Valve adopt inside out tracking, it will be mainstream and everyone will have great inside out tracking. They'll translate to it easily.

Valve are not the type of company to ditch a perfect solution for an imperfect compromise. They'd rather wait until its a seemless transition with inside out tracking providing the same quality as lighthouse.

They aren't like Oculus. Oculus are a company which would compromise for a transition; and I think sometimes you paint Valve with the same brush because you're used to oculus as a VR company:
1. Downgrading refresh rate from 90 to 80
2. Downgrading build quality of controllers
3. Downgrading accuracy of tracking solution
4. Downgrading headset by taking away physical IPD
5. Downgrading audio solution by getting rid of good quality over the ear build in headphones for piped in subpar audio

These are moves you simply wouldn't see Valve doing, so I don't think VR users invested in the light house ecosystem need to worry.
Valve are the no compromise, PC enthusiast, high-end PCVR headset. Thats their market.
They're not after ipad users, they don't care about people on £399/£299 budgets and they don't care about people who can't mount light house sensors in their room.
Sadly thats Valve. An elite, high-end PCVR headset manufacturer who are not willing to compromise on the quality of their products to reach a price point.

I have plenty of issues with Valve, but them being behind the curve in regards to Oculus or MS tech-wise which they bring to consumers isn't one of them. They pack every feature they can into a headset, controller and tracker, and make their fans and customers pay for it.

What do valve VR users need to worry about? When/If Valve release an Index 2.0...
 

Atmos

Well-known Member
When did I say that Oculus invented the thing?

Valve may have STARTED with inside out tracking but they dropped it years ago. When they switch to inside out tracking they're going to be years behind.

It's going to happen, it's just a matter of WHEN not IF.

You mean the same way Valve are years behind on hand tracking. :facepalm:

 

Thug

Moderator
As much as you think its too expensive, plenty of people are queuing up for an Index for the last 18 months because they think its worth the money. This is probably due to the lack of valuable competition which match Valve on a headset, tracking and controller basis. Sadly this hasn't changed with the G2 which has the achielles heel of the controllers being poor.
How are they 'poor'?
Ok, they may not be as good as the knipples or the original Oculus controllers, but they are still good (from what i have heard).
Any way, i have no interest in controllers as i play sims (flight and racing) only.

Oculus are STILL playing catchup on:
1. Refresh rate
2. Glasses slider, support, build quality
3. Refresh rate
4. Vertical FOV
5. Horizontal FOV
6. Finger tracking
7. Tracking accuracy
8. Controller input methods
9. Black levels
10. Contrast and colours
11. far far inferior audio quality

etc. etc.
I wouldn't really say 'catching up; just changing direction (and not necessarily for the better).

Oculus already had (before others in some cases)...
1. 90 hz refresh rate
2. Fantastic build quality in the CV1
3. refresh rate (not sure why you listed this twice)?
6. Finger tracking (ok, only thumb and finger).
7. Tracking accuracy? There is nothing wrong with the CV1 accuracy if set up correctly
9. CV1 black levels were OLED and best in class (at the time)
10. Contrast and colours were great too
11. CV1 audio was again best in class (and still great now).

As i said, they went a different direction. They always wanted to release a cheap HMD for the masses, from the DK2 they had a plan to release the CV1 at almost a loss to get VR more main stream. It was a little more than they hoped, but obviously that dream is still there by releasing the Q2.
Ok, you 'could' make it better with more money, but its not necessary at all to have a working HMD.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
How are they 'poor'?
Ok, they may not be as good as the knipples or the original Oculus controllers, but they are still good (from what i have heard).
Any way, i have no interest in controllers as i play sims (flight and racing) only.


I wouldn't really say 'catching up; just changing direction (and not necessarily for the better).

Oculus already had (before others in some cases)...
1. 90 hz refresh rate
2. Fantastic build quality in the CV1
3. refresh rate (not sure why you listed this twice)?
6. Finger tracking (ok, only thumb and finger).
7. Tracking accuracy? There is nothing wrong with the CV1 accuracy if set up correctly
9. CV1 black levels were OLED and best in class (at the time)
10. Contrast and colours were great too
11. CV1 audio was again best in class (and still great now).

As i said, they went a different direction. They always wanted to release a cheap HMD for the masses, from the DK2 they had a plan to release the CV1 at almost a loss to get VR more main stream. It was a little more than they hoped, but obviously that dream is still there by releasing the Q2.
Ok, you 'could' make it better with more money, but its not necessary at all to have a working HMD.


The G2 controllers lack capactative touch, which since the CV1 has been IMO a vital part of immersion, i.e. being able to sense your finger. Not featuring this on the controllers is a step back IMO. They should have at least aimed for total parity with the touch controllers which are now 3 generations of headsets old (CV1, Rift S, Quest 1, Quest 2). WMR tracking is also going to be bad compared to the competition and its reported there is some WMR based controller battery drain issues.

Yes, I completely agree. Oculus however decided to go backwards from the CV1, which is my point. Oculus are prepared to go backwards with their headsets and remove features or downgrade the experience to reach a price point.

I have nothing to critisise Oculus for from the CV1 perspective. It was a fantastic, phenomenal, well priced VR headset with the best in class controllers, best in class audio at the time and it was bundled with shed loads of software at a competitive price. Its one of the best VR deals of all time, and it was made at the peak of Oculsus'd dedication to PCVR with a slew of phenomenal games such as Lone Echo, Robo Recall and muiltiple games at that point in time in production for VR. I'd actually describe the Index as a spiritual successor to the CV1.

If you read my post properly, my point is that they downgraded multiple components of the experience for the Rift S. Oculus are now catching up form where we stand with the Rift S and Q2. Anyone who denies that Oculus took an entirely different direction to PCVR after CV1 needs to look back properly.

I don't think Valve will do the same transition with the Index 2.0 (if/when it comes). This entire debate is stemming from Snowdog thinking Valve would transition from lighthouse to a inside out without it being as good as light house. Valve won't do that.
 
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kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I think a lot of us seem to confuse "catchup" with how much tech the two companies are packing behind closed doors.

I think, to a large extent, this is redundant. It doesn't matter what form or level of tech Oculus or Valve have behind closed doors if we never get to see it.

Oculus showcased some phenomenal prototypes years ago and we've never seen the tech translate. Why? Probably price point. Aslong as Oculus target a 299/399 price point, they are to a large extent stuck in terms of what they can bring to the consumer table. They'll struggle to match £299 Index controllers for example.

Similar to Valve, they can showcase on reddit whatever technology they want but it only gives us a small insight into what they can potentially do. Valve a few years ago said wireless is easy to do, yet still no wireless adapator.

Whats important IMO and how I judge VR companies is based on their history on what they have brought to the table and how they've transitioned in regards to hardware and software. Have they stripped away hardware features? Have they invested into their ecosystems etc. etc.
 

Thug

Moderator
There appears to be a bit of snobbery (my expensive one is better than your cheapo one) on these boards.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
There appears to be a bit of snobbery (my expensive one is better than your cheapo one) on these boards.

Not at all. There is no snobbery with small tech purchases like these.

I had a CV1 which was the cheaper headset.

I think people are just having frank, honest, objective discussions on the direction of VR for each respective company and the quality of the headsets.

Both headsets offer a fundamental VR experience which is whats important.

However from an enthusiast level and perspective, of course we'd disssect and debate about different platforms. This is similar to the projector forum with people talking about their JVC projectors phenomenal blacks compared to a DLP, or a TV form with OLED owners stating how superior their display is to LCD.

It would be stupid to have snobbery related to a VR headset. Someone might have a £299 Oculus Quest but live in a £950,000 house or drive a £100,000 car. Value comes into play certaintly and some people might feel VR is only worth £299 (which would be a fair argument).

Looking away from £, anyone who feels they're better than someone else due to a piece of plastic or metal is an idiot. The last thing which defines someone is what VR headset they use to play a video game. Things like job, friends, family, children, all are phenomenally more important.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Come on Kenshingintoki we all know you're the forum snob. lol :p

Haha I'm more like the unfaithful bed hopper who will go from VR headset to VR headset.. which ever offers the better experience.. and then bad mouth the other ones skills after 😂
 

Thug

Moderator
Not at all. There is no snobbery with small tech purchases like these
Definitely snobbery...
Valve are the no compromise, PC enthusiast, high-end PCVR headset. Thats their market.
They're not after ipad users, they don't care about people on £399/£299 budgets and they don't care about people who can't mount light house sensors in their room.
Sadly thats Valve. An elite, high-end PCVR headset manufacturer who are not willing to compromise on the quality of their products to reach a price point.
They dont care about cheaper HMD's and neither do their owners.
As much as you think its too expensive, plenty of people are queuing up for an Index for the last 18 months because they think its worth the money. This is probably due to the lack of valuable competition which match Valve on a headset, tracking and controller basis. Sadly this hasn't changed with the G2 which has the achielles heel of the controllers being poor.

Oculus are STILL playing catchup on:

They can machine learn inside out tracking as much as they like; Valve are lightyears ahead of them in terms of what they've brought to the table for consumers and have the added benefit of not working to a specific social media targetting price point of £299 or £399.,
Oculus are 'still playing catch up'.
Why do you think this? Surely they are just aiming for a different market, a market that Index owners have no interest in due to being cheaper perhaps.

There is a gap for cheaper, mid priced and more expensive HMD's, but some owners of the more expensive ones try to make the cheaper HMD owners feel inadequate with their 'achielles heal controllers' and 'far far inferior audio' and their 'poor blacks' and a 'headset which is lightyears behind' and how you 'laugh at people setting up their CV1 controllers' and those who 'look silly with their toilet roll FOV', having 'different standards' in regards to their HMD (or TV as you said).
Please just listen to how it sounds to those who may not have as much money to spend on tech. People have been made redundant due to covid, they try to spend wisely but keep up to date too. They are happy with their purchase, but you are telling them that they are the type of people to accept poor alternatives, making it personal as if their choice is wrong and yours is right.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Definitely snobbery...

They dont care about cheaper HMD's and neither do their owners.

Oculus are 'still playing catch up'.
Why do you think this? Surely they are just aiming for a different market, a market that Index owners have no interest in due to being cheaper perhaps.

There is a gap for cheaper, mid priced and more expensive HMD's, but some owners of the more expensive ones try to make the cheaper HMD owners feel inadequate with their 'achielles heal controllers' and 'far far inferior audio' and their 'poor blacks' and a 'headset which is lightyears behind' and how you 'laugh at people setting up their CV1 controllers' and those who 'look silly with their toilet roll FOV', having 'different standards' in regards to their HMD (or TV as you said).
Please just listen to how it sounds to those who may not have as much money to spend on tech. People have been made redundant due to covid, they try to spend wisely but keep up to date too. They are happy with their purchase, but you are telling them that they are the type of people to accept poor alternatives, making it personal as if their choice is wrong and yours is right.

I think you're taking this far too personally and it seems as if a lot of what I've said has upset you. It's probably better if we don't talk about VR. Maybe add me to the ignore list?

For the record, there is no right or wrong with buying and investing into VR. Someone spending £919 on VR might regret it a year from now if they never use it or find the games aren't worth while and vice versa. No HMD is inadequate but they do have clear deficiencies (thats Oculus, Valve and WMR headsets).

I've written a topic on this forum criticising the Valve Index and how much it sucks too. I'm not trying to be-little headsets specific to price point; trying to incite some form of snobbery. I'm fairly critical of all of them.


The most fun I had was with a CV1 in VR (and a PSVR) so I think specs don't always correlate to enjoyment. But I still feel fairly comfortable talking about specs and appreciating where VR headsets are excelling and where they are struggling or behind the competition.

Maybe the way I talk and describe them is a bit cut throat, but at the end of the day, I think we can be fairly objective and cut throat with a virtual reality headset as, at least for myself, its a piece of tech.

I wouldn't let my harsh assessment on VR headsets make your future purchases feel any less enjoyable than they are as each manufacturer at this point in time has clear unique positives over the others.
 
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kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
And FYI, I'll probably be buying a Quest 2 but it doesn't mean I can't bash it, just like I bash the Index for its vertical SDE, horrible glare, valve not openly admitting the joystick click issue was indeed an issue, not delivering its promised 3 games, poor reliability of the Index controllers etc.

The Q2 has a very very unique use-case the others can't really compete with, especially in the bedroom. 😂
 

Thug

Moderator
I think you're taking this far too personally and it seems as if a lot of what I've said has upset you. It's probably better if we don't talk about VR. Maybe add me to the ignore list?

For the record, there is no right or wrong with buying and investing into VR. Someone spending £919 on VR might regret it a year from now if they never use it or find the games aren't worth while and vice versa. No HMD is inadequate but they do have clear deficiencies (thats Oculus, Valve and WMR headsets).

I've written a topic on this forum criticising the Valve Index and how much it sucks too. I'm not trying to be-little headsets specific to price point; trying to incite some form of snobbery. I'm fairly critical of all of them.


The most fun I had was with a CV1 in VR (and a PSVR) so I think specs don't always correlate to enjoyment. But I still feel fairly comfortable talking about specs and appreciating where VR headsets are excelling and where they are struggling or behind the competition.

Maybe the way I talk and describe them is a bit cut throat, but at the end of the day, I think we can be fairly objective and cut throat with a virtual reality headset as, at least for myself, its a piece of tech.

I wouldn't let my harsh assessment on VR headsets make your future purchases feel any less enjoyable than they are as each manufacturer at this point in time has clear unique positives over the others.
i am not taking it personally at all, i dont care about other peoples opinions on tech, only my own.
Its like the many Apple v Android arguments i have seen, i really dont care.
Being a MOD i cant (and shouldn't) really put people on my ignore list or how could i moderate them.
And to be honest no one has upset me enough EVER to want me to put them to ignore, i have thicker skin than that.
I just dont like to see people bad mouth other's choices because they dont agree or like what others so.

For the record i still have my CV1 and never upgraded due to not seeing anything i really liked the look of, until the G2 was announced and i paid into it and look forward to getting it. I have no intention of getting a Q1,2, Index or anything else for various reasons. But i will never knock them as i know other people do like them.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
i am not taking it personally at all, i dont care about other peoples opinions on tech, only my own.
Its like the many Apple v Android arguments i have seen, i really dont care.
Being a MOD i cant (and shouldn't) really put people on my ignore list or how could i moderate them.
And to be honest no one has upset me enough EVER to want me to put them to ignore, i have thicker skin than that.
I just dont like to see people bad mouth other's choices because they dont agree or like what others so.

For the record i still have my CV1 and never upgraded due to not seeing anything i really liked the look of, until the G2 was announced and i paid into it and look forward to getting it. I have no intention of getting a Q1,2, Index or anything else for various reasons. But i will never knock them as i know other people do like them.


Fair enough. In the past 24 hours you've called me angry, a snob and confrontational, so I assumed you were upset. I dislike things getting personal so have tried not to go to that level.

I look at tech devices fairly objectively and critique the Index, Quest 2 and G2. Its not to purposely 'knock' them; its a technological discussion on where some excel, and where some don't whilst discussing their individual direction in regards to VR.

I don't think its about 'knocking' devices, as much as it is discussing their positives and shortcomings out of general enthusiast-level interest. Given the topic title of this thread, its fairly obvious to me it was going to delve into that on multiple levels from VR direction to software to hardware.

I'm happy for anyone to critique the Index... hell I do it enough myself lol.
 
Definitely snobbery...

They dont care about cheaper HMD's and neither do their owners.

Oculus are 'still playing catch up'.
Why do you think this? Surely they are just aiming for a different market, a market that Index owners have no interest in due to being cheaper perhaps.

There is a gap for cheaper, mid priced and more expensive HMD's, but some owners of the more expensive ones try to make the cheaper HMD owners feel inadequate with their 'achielles heal controllers' and 'far far inferior audio' and their 'poor blacks' and a 'headset which is lightyears behind' and how you 'laugh at people setting up their CV1 controllers' and those who 'look silly with their toilet roll FOV', having 'different standards' in regards to their HMD (or TV as you said).
Please just listen to how it sounds to those who may not have as much money to spend on tech. People have been made redundant due to covid, they try to spend wisely but keep up to date too. They are happy with their purchase, but you are telling them that they are the type of people to accept poor alternatives, making it personal as if their choice is wrong and yours is right.

It's not even necessarily about finances, definitely not for me. I could have afforded to have got an Index instead of a Rift S when it launched, but like I've said before the VALUE simply wasn't there.

If I'm going to spend almost a grand on a VR headset I'm going to want more than a 1600p headset with a 130° FOV. For that sort of money I'm going to want a Pimax resolution (2.5K or 4K) and a Pimax FOV. Hell, even 2K and 150° would have had me happy.

Valve are taking the piss with the price of the Index and I'm certainly not going to reward that behaviour with my cash.

If the G2 had released before the Rift S I would have got a G2 and left the Oculus ecosystem but it didn't. So I didn't.

Sure, I could get a G2 NOW, but what's the point? I'll spend 500-odd quid to own 2 headsets and the first headset I bought can have IQ not a million miles away from the G2 via supersampling at no extra cost and have the advantages of ASW 2.0 too.

Yes, I'm planning on getting a Quest 2 now, but unless it's a better PC VR experience compared to my Rift S I'll only be using it for developing and not for PC VR. I'm probably not even going to be using it to play standalone games from the Quest Store.
 

Thug

Moderator
I would have loved the index, and probably would have had one by now if it wasn’t for the lighthouses.
I hear people say that they offer better tracking than the Rift but I have absolutely no issues at all with the Rift.
The lighthouses require more electric sockets, so I would have to extend the cored having an ugly extension cable/plug lying on the floor. The usb cable I use now is hidden under the skirting board and practically invisible.
The biggest thing for me though was the size of them. They are like half a house brick stuck to your wall where the rift are quite discrete in comparison.
Then there is the problem of EMI issues that lots of people are having with them and motion rigs where if you touch the HDM anywhere (yes, even the plastic) you get a blackout screen.
You would think for a top quality, high end, elite, no compromise to quality HMD this wouldn’t/shouldn’t happen, but it does.
People go on about how great their quality is, but for this to happen there is something obviously amiss with their quality control.
 
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kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
If I'd never touched the Index controller, I'd buy a G2.

Its annoying to go back from the Index controllers (if they fit your hands) because I think they're just so many generations ahead of everyone else. I love in boneworks actually pushing myself away from a wall or handling a weapon how I would in real life. I also live in HLA picking up a bullet with my fingers etc. If you've not been exposed to them, then the G2 is an easy choice.

The Valve Index is a complex piece of engineering. Once you unbox it and see how complex every single component is, you realise it has many points of failure.

When I unboxed my Rift S, it was a giant piece of plastic with firm plastic controllers that although felt cheaper than the CV1, were simple and sturdy. The Index is really complex, and its obvious there will be many points of failure and its definitely Valve's 'achilles heel' - i.e. they're inexperienced with manufacturing hardware, but have chosen to manufacture one of the most complex pieces of tech on the consumer market; and its shown with the number of RMAs for each specific component.

I've had to RMA one controller, and my Index headset I'd think about RMAing due to vertical SDE on rare occasions but 99% of users report it except Atmos who has a magical Index (despite the fact Valve have a column correction setting because they know it affects every headset).
 

Thug

Moderator
Bitter sweet
 

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