Oculus's embarassing direction for VR

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member

This trailer, to me, is just embarassing from a PCVR user's perspective. No innovation, no unique selling point, trying to dodge any comparisons to other VR headsets, showing old games we've all played 100s of times, and they even highlight this is a perfect first VR headset.

Any thoughts? Are Oculus finally out of the PCVR high-end or even mid-range game?


Two headsets spring to mind. The HP Reverb G2 which is the mid-range. And the Valve Index which is the high-end. I don't think Oculus are bothered competing with either. They're a metric tonne away from these two players who have both furthered VR far farther than Oculus have. Reports that Oculus have now stopped making the Rift S and CV1 just add more fuel to the fire.

Even the controllers are just rehashed CV1 controllers. No sign of a new audio solutione either.

Oculus Link seems to have issues too as the processing power to passthrough an encode/decode is ending up with comparable GPU/CPU utilisation to an Index and Reverb.


I hope I'm wrong and we see a good headset from Oculus but they do look set to embrace the standalone VR experience and leave PCVR as a little side project. Very sad.
 
I dont think this is aimed at you (us) at all - "dodge any comparisons to other VR headsets" ? Not the right place for that in their advert for beginners - The audience that owns a VR device already or is looking at other options isnt the target for this Ad. InFact TV style Ads are not for us anymore as we have an imformed option enough to go on a techincal forum and sort out what we value in the hardware - this is for everyone else. This will sell loads and if the 64GB version hits around £299 even more so. High end sets are for the relativly small percent of VR hardcore VR fans.
 

Presuming Ed

Well-known Member
Not sure any manufacturer directly compares their product to their competitors' products in promotional videos.

And the same old games we've all played 100s of times? Welcome to the Actual Reality of VR. Where exactly are the new games we haven't played before?

If there were any, this forum would be a hive of activity. As it is.....

140044286_5c4552af8e_edit2-800x450.jpg
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Not sure any manufacturer directly compares their product to their competitors' products in promotional videos.

And the same old games we've all played 100s of times? Welcome to the Actual Reality of VR. Where exactly are the new games we haven't played before?

If there were any, this forum would be a hive of activity. As it is.....

140044286_5c4552af8e_edit2-800x450.jpg


That advert is telling though. Oculus clearly only care about the mainstream market now. They want VR to be a social platform with games, they don't care for furthering VR technology forwards which will translate to less complex games.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Hopefully I'm wrong..
 

huxley

Member
Its aimed at the pleb masses to gobble up data and sell adverts.
Hopefully this will drive millions of curious people into making that first VR purchase, hopefully they will progress up the hardware chain.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Its aimed at the pleb masses to gobble up data and sell adverts.
Hopefully this will drive millions of curious people into making that first VR purchase, hopefully they will progress up the hardware chain.


Sadly I genuinely think you're right now.

I was always sceptical about the oculus/fb conspiracy theories re: their intentions but its clear to see now, they really don't give a care in the world about any other than just dominating the mainstream market with SOME form of VR.

I hope someone like MS get into the gaming-VR subspace now. It seems like something they could easily dominate. They have the gaming studios, they have the platform with WMR, they have Steam on their Windows OS and even for Oculus owners, if they want to use the Rift platform they need windows.

Sadly I think MS are sleeping on it for whatever reason. They didn't even include it on their Xbox line.

Our other hope is Sony who will deliver but the question of when is always up in the air.

Finally Valve, who simply don't seem to have a clear enough plan on what software they are or aren't going to bring to the table with a sensible timeline. Hardware wise they're struggle to produce and deliver as the waiting list seems to be never ending for an Index, which doesn't bode well for further hardware advancements.
 

MikeKay1976

Distinguished Member

This trailer, to me, is just embarassing from a PCVR user's perspective. No innovation, no unique selling point, trying to dodge any comparisons to other VR headsets, showing old games we've all played 100s of times, and they even highlight this is a perfect first VR headset.

Any thoughts? Are Oculus finally out of the PCVR high-end or even mid-range game?


Two headsets spring to mind. The HP Reverb G2 which is the mid-range. And the Valve Index which is the high-end. I don't think Oculus are bothered competing with either. They're a metric tonne away from these two players who have both furthered VR far farther than Oculus have. Reports that Oculus have now stopped making the Rift S and CV1 just add more fuel to the fire.

Even the controllers are just rehashed CV1 controllers. No sign of a new audio solutione either.

Oculus Link seems to have issues too as the processing power to passthrough an encode/decode is ending up with comparable GPU/CPU utilisation to an Index and Reverb.


I hope I'm wrong and we see a good headset from Oculus but they do look set to embrace the standalone VR experience and leave PCVR as a little side project. Very sad.
Can't say for sure but I do definity disagree with some points.
1) G2 I would say is high end VR

2) Oculus touch I would put money on still being better than all other controllers.aside from knuckles. WAY better than windows MR in the G2 (quest 1 touch apparently beat G2 and quest 2 have significantly improved responsiveness iirc, combine that with how fussy G2 controllers are with light, you can't use normal rechargables and it rejects normal batteries when half done and finally does not track close to your face . I am worried about G2 controllers to be honest.

3) I trust Oculus inside out tracking more than any other inside out solution AND they have the better platform with ASW 2.0

4) almost 4k...... Potentially very good screens there to rival G2.
5) that seems a kick ass processor for mobile VR
6) controllerless hand tracking... Could be v cool in some things like in a flight or racing sim combined with hotas or wheel...

Questions I would like to know

Sound quality
FOV
1 screen or 2
Full stripe LCD or pentile oled
Refresh rate of screen(s)

Overall am happy for my G2 preorder to keep being delayed to give me time to cancel if I need to
 
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kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Can't say for sure but I do definity disagree with some points.
1) G2 I would say is high end VR
2) Oculus touch I would put money on still being better than all other controllers.aside from knuckles. WAY better than windows MR in the G2
3) I trust Oculus inside out tracking more than any other inside out solution AND they have the better platform with ASW 2.0
4) almost 4k...... Potentially very good screens there to rival G2.
5) that seems a kick ass processor for mobile VR
6) controllerless hand tracking... Could be v cool in some things like in a flight or racing sim combined with hotas or wheel...

Questions I would like to know

Sound quality
FOV
1 screen or 2
Full stripe LCD or pentile oled
Refresh rate of screen(s)

Overall am happy for my G2 preorder to keep being delayed to give me time to cancel if I need to


1. I'd say G2 in the pricing scheme of things is mid-range. The Index is almost double its price for a similar complete package.

2. How is it way better? Outside of capacitive touch for the thumb, I struggle to see how it is "way better". The Oculus touch controllers for the Quest and Rift S were already a step backwards in build quality and weight distribution. The G2 controllers have got insanely good reviews for ergonomics with the only critique being thumb tracking being neglected.

3. ASW 2.0 is great. However given ASW2.0 kicks in with Oculus Link, the Link has enough big big big problems such as huge ammounts of noise and macroblocking on dark scenes that ASW 2.0 simply isn't going to solve that.

4. "Almost 4k" without any physical exact IPD. Your image can be sharp as you want but if its not lined up properly with your pupils, its going to be much more blurrier than a headset with physical IPD.

5. Yes, its a good processor for MobileVR but we will still need mobileVR games which take advantage of the Quest to make us not want to hook it up to a PC.

6. The handtracking on the Quest is already abysmal and shockingly useless outside of being a gimick or navigating menus so I'm not holding my breath on this.



It will be an LCD screen. Ideally we'd have full stripe OLED but they're too expensive and as far as I know, not in mass production. The LCD screens are cheap, and Oculus love cheap when it comes to their screens.

The sound quality will suck. There is no evidence of over the ear speakers or headphones. The G2 and Index will destroy them in sound. And so will the Oculus CV1.

The refresh rate will likely be 80hz or 72hz. This is partly due to battery power and consumption and because the Snapdragon is still going to be pathetic compared to a PC, so they'll need to bottleneck the screen to allow it to keep up with the higher resolution panels.

FOV, I think will be the same or less. Otherwise they would have advertised it. They did a similar trick with the Rift S which ended up being pathetic (except for a few users on this forum who had super amazing Rift S's).

1 screen or 2... hm... I think it'll be 1. The reason I think this is if it was 2, why not have a physical adjustable IPD with pinpoint measurement?
 

Presuming Ed

Well-known Member
Loads of elitism and snobbery here, in my humble opinion.

VR is surely dying. There just aren't enough games.

If it wasn't for the fact that I can put hundreds of hours into racing games, I'd consider my Index to be a colossal waste of money. Not down to hardware quality at all, purely down to there not being anything new and interesting to do with it.

Like play the games I've played 100s of times before. Again. At a higher resolution. They didn't put that in the advert, but that's what I'd be doing.

If VR stays niche, then it will die. Because it won't be commercially viable for anyone to produce software for it. Elite, for example.

So it needs to go mainstream. And to do that it needs cheap, accessible affordable, attractive headsets.

So why do we pour scorn on the companies that want to do just that?
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Loads of elitism and snobbery here, in my humble opinion.

VR is surely dying. There just aren't enough games.

If it wasn't for the fact that I can put hundreds of hours into racing games, I'd consider my Index to be a colossal waste of money. Not down to hardware quality at all, purely down to there not being anything new and interesting to do with it.

Like play the games I've played 100s of times before. Again. At a higher resolution. They didn't put that in the advert, but that's what I'd be doing.

If VR stays niche, then it will die. Because it won't be commercially viable for anyone to produce software for it. Elite, for example.

So it needs to go mainstream. And to do that it needs cheap, accessible affordable, attractive headsets.

So why do we pour scorn on the companies that want to do just that?


Because Oculus's closed ecosystem is bad for VR. If Oculus had an open VR ecosystem with clear upgrade paths to other competitor headsets, I could understand and agree that they're making it more accessible.

However it looks as if Oculus aren't making it more accessible; they're just trying to lock as many people as they can into their ecosystem.
 

MikeKay1976

Distinguished Member
I don't believe VR is dying...... It may be taking off slower than some hoped but there is still good software.comibg out... Is it enough? Dunno it all depends on how much time you have I guess but MSFS2020, starwars squadrons, medal of honour VR are 3 high profile games coming very soon.

Facebook were always going to pump for mainstream adoption. I went for the rift despite this and yes both the riftS and quest 1 did not interest me but (and I definitely need to know more) but I have not seen enough to put me off quest 2 yet.

As for how is touch better than windows MR controllers.... Like I said, distance to face tracking, less sensitivity to light conditions, wider cone of view (even MRTV the biggest G2 fanboy admitted it), battery management, and better finger tracking due to capacitive buttons.... Oh and better tracking predictions when they ARE out of sight.
Add in that the hardware in the touch is meant to be significantly upgraded I know if I could have those controllers cloned to run with the G2 I would be happier
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I don't believe VR is dying...... It may be taking off slower than some hoped but there is still good software.comibg out... Is it enough? Dunno it all depends on how much time you have I guess but MSFS2020, starwars squadrons, medal of honour VR are 3 high profile games coming very soon.

Facebook were always going to pump for mainstream adoption. I went for the rift despite this and yes both the riftS and quest 1 did not interest me but (and I definitely need to know more) but I have not seen enough to put me off quest 2 yet.

As for how is touch better than windows MR controllers.... Like I said, distance to face tracking, less sensitivity to light conditions, wider cone of view (even MRTV the biggest G2 fanboy admitted it), battery management, and better finger tracking due to capacitive buttons.
Add in that the hardware in the touch is meant to be significantly upgraded I know if I could have those controllers cloned to run with the G2 I would be happier


Is it significantly upgraded? They said improved ergonomics. The CV1 controllers were the best oculus produced. The Quest ones were cheap plastic pieces of crap.. I'm going to assume they ahve been further downgraded.. hope I'm wrong..

Its frustrating for me because I know Oculus CAN release a headset which will knock our socks off and make the Index look like an overpriced piece of crap.. but they just are holding back so much...

I can only hope they secretly have a HP-reverb like headset with next gen controllers and a copied Valve audio solution and are just lining up 2-3 big exclusives to release it alongside of.


at least i can dream..
 

MikeKay1976

Distinguished Member
It may not be confirmed yet but this is from the original leak aabut the new controllers


The Jedi controller may receive a tracking update with faster controller polling and a new ICM-426-series TDK chip. The updated IMU should greatly reduce noise and improve resolution of tracking to allow more precise positioning of the controller.

Btw I fully agree it is a crying shame quest doesn't have a display port on it for pcmode. When usb4 takes off maybe that will be ok but until then DP would have been better.
 
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KingD

Active Member
Looks like exactly what I would expect, Oculus are doing the right thing if VR is to survive, uptake is not high enough for "high end PC VR" to continue as it exists, numbers are the most important thing, no hardware sold = no software.
keen to see more info with regards FOV and Audio, my biggest bugbears with my S
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Looks like exactly what I would expect, Oculus are doing the right thing if VR is to survive, uptake is not high enough for "high end PC VR" to continue as it exists, numbers are the most important thing, no hardware sold = no software.
keen to see more info with regards FOV and Audio, my biggest bugbears with my S

True. Maybe we're simply just not there and we should all pack up our VR hardware and revisit this chapter in 5-10 years.

I'm holding off from playing a few big big VR games like Skyrim, Asgard's Wrath because TBH I fear what you're saying.. that after the current library we have; there won't be much left for the next couple of years.

Maybe the Reverb G2 is as good as it'll get for visual fidelity for a while. I like the Index but I still don't think its clear enough.
 

mikeysthoughts

Well-known Member
Oculus clearly only care about the mainstream market now. They want VR to be a social platform with games, they don't care for furthering VR technology forwards which will translate to less complex games.
they're just trying to lock as many people as they can into their ecosystem
As predicted when Facebook bought them up.

Not at all surprising, but if it does bring VR to a wider audience then there could be a longer term halo effect which draws some into the higher echelons of VR gaming and applications (same way my Master System and Mega Drive were the starting points for me becoming a PC gamer now). If nothing else, it will stimulate new ways of thinking about game and software development which is always a good thing.

I won't be buying an Oculus (or anything else Facebook), but a wider game offering might tempt me into a Vive.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
As predicted when Facebook bought them up.

Not at all surprising, but if it does bring VR to a wider audience then there could be a longer term halo effect which draws some into the higher echelons of VR gaming and applications (same way my Master System and Mega Drive were the starting points for me becoming a PC gamer now). If nothing else, it will stimulate new ways of thinking about game and software development which is always a good thing.

I won't be buying an Oculus (or anything else Facebook), but a wider game offering might tempt me into a Vive.


Vive are dead so I wouldn't go for them. They simply released an inferior product, overpriced all of their technology all the way and had the poorest customer support in the VR market.. so left very little 'good will' with its customers.

Its an Index or Reverb G2 if you want to move away from Oculus.
 

mikeysthoughts

Well-known Member
Vive are dead so I wouldn't go for them. They simply released an inferior product, overpriced all of their technology all the way and had the poorest customer support in the VR market.. so left very little 'good will' with its customers.

Its an Index or Reverb G2 if you want to move away from Oculus.
I meant Index - got Vive and Valve mixed up! :facepalm:
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I still might buy a cheap Quest 2 just to check it out tho tbh.

the riley reid look alike model is really enticing me on the advertisements.
 

thesnowdog

Well-known Member
Basically everything that Mike has said. Of course it's a high end headset, same as the G2 is a high end headset. They're both 2160p headsets, and the Index is a 1600p headset. Sure, the Index wins on refresh rate and controllers but the Quest 2 and G2 have a higher resolution and (assuming the G2 tracking isn't broken) the tracking is pretty good. Sure the Quest 2 won't be as good as the Index, the Index is still the headset to buy if you want the best VR experience overall, but it's less than a third of the price and gives you a standalone headset and PC VR headset in one. Doesn't sound too shabby to me.

I've been quite presently surprised by this news, but I won't be getting one because I'm getting a Yaw VR motion simulator instead. I was expecting a Quest S with just a refresh rate upgrade, and I think that there'll be plenty of people at HP a little concerned if the Link experience is improved by the Snapdragon XR APU. We could see a lot of people cancelling their G2 pre-orders I think.

I'm a bit pissed off by both Nvidia and Oculus though, they're both tempting me to get a new GPU and new headset lol :laugh::rotfl:
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Basically everything that Mike has said. Of course it's a high end headset, same as the G2 is a high end headset. They're both 2160p headsets, and the Index is a 1600p headset. Sure, the Index wins on refresh rate and controllers but the Quest 2 and G2 have a higher resolution and (assuming the G2 tracking isn't broken) the tracking is pretty good. Sure the Quest 2 won't be as good as the Index, the Index is still the headset to buy if you want the best VR experience overall, but it's less than a third of the price and gives you a standalone headset and PC VR headset in one. Doesn't sound too shabby to me.

I've been quite presently surprised by this news, but I won't be getting one because I'm getting a Yaw VR motion simulator instead. I was expecting a Quest S with just a refresh rate upgrade, and I think that there'll be plenty of people at HP a little concerned if the Link experience is improved by the Snapdragon XR APU. We could see a lot of people cancelling their G2 pre-orders I think.

I'm a bit pissed off by both Nvidia and Oculus though, they're both tempting me to get a new GPU and new headset lol :laugh::rotfl:


you're convienantly ignoring physical IPD, refresh rate, colours, fov, audio.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Then again if these lenses are of a decent quality and this can become a 3D/2D film watching device... I might bite. I do love the price point.
 

MikeKay1976

Distinguished Member
you're convienantly ignoring physical IPD, refresh rate, colours, fov, audio.
I definity need to know about those things. The "only" 3 settings for IPD actually is a non issue for me. I have yet to use a hmd that I haven't instantly put the IPD up to max anyway so sure only 3 physical settings is a loss , so long as the Max covers an ipd of 70 i would be golden.

The refresh I am assuming it will support 90 at least. The leaks a bit ago said it was running at 120hz but did predict it would likely be lowered to 90 for release (so a tie with G2)

FOV and audio are the 2 areas I need to know more on asap.
 

KingD

Active Member
I definity need to know about those things. The "only" 3 settings for IPD actually is a non issue for me. I have yet to use a hmd that I haven't instantly put the IPD up to max anyway so sure only 3 physical settings is a loss , so long as the Max covers an ipd of 70 i would be golden.

The refresh I am assuming it will support 90 at least. The leaks a bit ago said it was running at 120hz but did predict it would likely be lowered to 90 for release (so a tie with G2)

FOV and audio are the 2 areas I need to know more on asap.

I saw it somewhere that Audio is improved, but not magically better, as before if you want proper sound, headphones seems to be the way (this works for me, headphones when on a "proper session" none for "casual" use.
FOV I hear is the same as Quest 1, which is fine but would have been hoping for some improvement in that area.
 

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