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Obvious? Sub / sat v large question

Discussion in 'Subwoofers' started by Peter Shilton, Jul 12, 2002.

  1. Peter Shilton

    Peter Shilton
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    I have been looking and searching all the threads on here but I cant seem to find what is probably obvious.

    I want to listed to music via my DVD player as well as movies.

    Do I need 2 main front speakers to get decent sound? OR

    Does 2 small speakers plus a sub woofer give the same sound?

    My problem is that the TV looks great but large front speakers are too intrusive from my wifes point of view.

    The front speakers are only 15w.

    They are run off the TV which has connections for front, rear and a sub. The TV does not say how big speakers it will drive.
     
  2. tan1415

    tan1415
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    I don't think a TV is powerful enough to drive any decent kind of speakers. Definitely not large ones.
    15 watts of the TV is probably max output. And when you consider it..most TV speakers are really small.Made special for TVs.

    If you really want to use seperate speakers, you better buy a seperate amp or use speakers that is active(has a build in amp)

    The question about large or sat/sub...
    Both should give you the same sound. In a large speaker hi/mid and bass comes from the one speaker, while with sat/sub..the mid/hi comes from the sats and the sub takes over when you need bass.Having the sound coming from two seperate speakers is not ideal.
    But lately there has been some good sub/sats system available.
    The mission package is very nice and unobtrusive.Kef also has a nice system.Both speakers needs a amp to power them..the amp in the TV will not be powerful enough.
     
  3. Peter Shilton

    Peter Shilton
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    Thanks,

    Therefore:

    does anyone know of some silver tall thin active speakers?

    (the TV is contempory and stylish, so spekers have to be too)

    I spoke to a hifi retailer who was trying to sell me some Celestion C2 speakers and he said the TV would drive them , but not as well as an amp so i wouldn't get the full benefit.

    The speakers pass wife test 1 ie they look the part

    but fail wife test 2 ie £900.

    So was he making it up or will my tV power them I cannot get any output figures for my TV exept that the internal speakers are 12w. It has connections for external speakers and an external sub.
     
  4. Jase

    Jase
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    Hi

    I would be very wary about connecting the Celestions to your tv, they really need a decent amp or receiver to run them. They are 4 ohm speakers and running them with an underpowered amp or tv is likely to fry the tweeters, they will draw more power than the tv´s amps can provide, causing distortion which will kill the tweeters, not something you want to happen to any speaker, especially a 900 quid pair.

    You need to doublecheck the TV´s speaker ratings, but you would be better off with a pair of 8 ohms, high sensitivity speakers.

    Or get an amplifier/receiver and then the Celestions.:)
     
  5. tan1415

    tan1415
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    I think I have the solution for you.
    I am not sure if you're familiar with the all in one sets?
    All the manufacturers have these kind of sets.
    In a box not bigger than a normal dvd player..you'll get a dvdplayer with a build in receiver.Included is a sat/sub speakerset.
    These are real lifestyle sets and are all pretty stylish.Sony,Panasonic,Pioneer, nakamichi,Tag McLAren have these kind of sets.For 900 pounds you can get a pretty good set and with all the gear íncluded..your wife won't be that negative about it.

    All you need to do is sell your currant DVDplayer or use it in the bedroom.Trying to find an active thin silver speaker is impossible.

    hope this helps.
     
  6. siluro

    siluro
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    hi Peter

    just a quick one for ya, if you have a look at richer sounds they do a couple of things that might do the trick, the first is Wharfedale LoudPanel PPS1 which would be drivin by your tv or a self powered alternative driven by line inputs from your digbox and dvd is the Mission FSMM1 Speaker Package , the mission use`s ntx panels and a sub while the wharfedale use`s some really strange new system with a sub but i think these would be your better option. check them out and see what you think

    cheers
    lee
     
  7. Peter Shilton

    Peter Shilton
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    I enquired of Toshiba whether adding 5 ohm speakers onto the TV without a separate amp would cause any damage.

    The man at Toshiba said I could go up to 8 ohms without any problem.

    I asked him to double check because I had been told (on here) that adding 5 ohm speakers could damage the tweeters, and by the shop saying it might damage the amp in the TV so check with Toshiba.

    He double checked as he had never heard of this and came back to confirm that adding 5 ohm speakers would be no problem and would not damage either the TV or the speakers.

    He assured me that they knew what they are on about at Toshiba.

    Is it OK for me to buy them? Are Toshiba generally knowledgeable?
     
  8. Nobber22

    Nobber22
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  9. Jase

    Jase
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    If they have never heard of blowing speakers with an underpowered amp then I suggest they go and learn quickly. Connecting 4 ohm speakers to your TV will result in problems, most likely damage to the speakers and possibly the TV itself.


    For info on speaker impedance have a look here:

    http://www.audiovideo101.com/dictionary/impedance.asp

    and ohms:

    http://www.audiovideo101.com/dictionary/ohm.asp

    Worth a read anyhow.:)
     
  10. Peter Shilton

    Peter Shilton
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    Thanks for that link, Jase, it was helpful and interesting.

    I rang Toshiba again on the strength of it and your advice.

    The Toshiba doesn't have an amp in it at all.

    I was told that I should never connect anything more than about 30w and 8 or 10 ohms.

    It is looking like I am going to have to buy an amp or an all in one system.
     
  11. MikeK

    MikeK
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    One can only assume that Toshiba are having trouble finding staff! :)


    Your TV will have an amplifier in it - it may not be a very good one by hifi standards, but it'll be there, no question.

    The wattage (eg 30W, or 80W) aka power rating, of speakers is largely irrelevant in most cases - it's simply a guide to the maximum amount of power they can handle without blowing up. Few people ever drive them anywhere near that level anyway (although I suspect a few may try). It doesn't actually mean that the sound will be listenable to with that level of input though, many will distort horribly, way before that level is reached.

    £900 for some Celestions is ridiculous overkill IMO for the use you'll be putting them to.

    What you want are decent sounding speakers (although it's not hard to better most TV speakers without really trying), with an 8ohm impedance and a high sensitivity (the higher the number, the better for your stituation, with a low powered amplifier).

    As you want them near the TV, they should be magnetically shielded.

    The compact Mission m70 in silver may fit the bill, at around £80 or so a pair - they'd have the added advantage of being pefectly usuable in a seperates system if you upgraded at a later date.
    http://www.qed-uk.com/?i=p26dZ0Ty3-2&bg=216&bp=m70s&v=8

    The matching Mission Stancette speaker stands are about £50, The top plate on the Missions may be a bit too big for the m70s though, so you may need to shop around for a pair of siver stands about 2ft high, well made, and in silver, with a top plate less than 6" wide (if you want silver that is)

    If you wanted more bass, you could add an active subwoofer (ideally speakers as small as m70s could use it - active means it has it's own internal amplifier) Getting one with both high level (designed to be connected to speaker outputs from amps/TVs etc) and low level (designed to be connected to phono subwoofer sockets on amps/TVs etc) will just about ensure compatibility with anything.
    As with many things, pay more, get more, but as all you are looking for is an improvement over TV sound, then it's not hard.
    The silver Eltax Atomic A10 at around £110 may fit the bill - may not the last word in subwoofers, but it'll give some reinforcement at the low end to the m70s. The A8 is another possibility, smaller, but won't go as deep into the bass regions.
    Either could easily be used in a seperates system at a later date as well. If colour isn't an issue, there are many subs which would fit the bill - take your pick really.
     
  12. Peter Shilton

    Peter Shilton
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    I have been reading just about every post/link and word I can find in order to solve my problem.

    Would this work?

    Buy a power amp which I can stick anywhere because I shouldn’t need to touch any controls.

    Feed the output from the TV amp into the power amp, then from the power amp into the Celestions (which are down to £550 now and I reckon I can get them cheaper yet as they are a discontinued model) and the surround sound.

    The only problem that I perceive this would cause is that the centre speaker would not be amplified.

    I have a RPT TV with the centre speaker built into the cabinet. Could I open the cabinet, take out the centre speaker (and any other crappy ones in there, fit a decent centre speaker, wire the existing centre speaker output into the power amp then back into the new centre speaker.)

    As I see it this would then mean that I had 5 amplified channels (does the sub come off the power amp too?), plus I could listen to music CDs through the DVD/TV digital connection setting the speakers to the 2 stereo Celestions using their full range.

    When watching 5.1 DVD it would go through all 5 channels and the sub and the bass of the Celestions would be silent.

    How about it?

    PS
    Has anyone opened a Toshiba cabinet?
     
  13. MikeK

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    First of all - it's bye-bye to any warranty if you modify your Tosh TV. Not sure if it's feasible either - it could involve extensive modification - or it might be fairly easy.

    Secondly, AFAIK, the Tosh TV has no line-level pre-outs to connect to a power amplifier - it only has a subwoofer pre-out.
    So you'd have to use the speaker level front and rear outputs and use a line level converter on them - essentially it's a bit pointless in your situation, as the sound would still be going through the TVs internal amplifier. Same for the centre speaker, if the modication you talk about is feasible.

    There is really no way to cost justify such actions on the basis of the results you'll achieve - my advice would be to not even consider it - the chances are you'll end up with a butchered TV set and over a thousand quids worth of average sound.
    (assuming a 5 channel power amp is available for around £500 to go with the Celestion fronts and whatever rears you are considering).

    Either get some extension speakers and perhaps an active subwoofer, as I explained earlier, and connect them to the TV - or bite the bullet and get a full blown surround sound system.
    If you buy reasonable quality speakers now, (and they are available at far less than the £550 price of the Celestions, which are probably more specialist stuff), there's no reason you can't subsequently use them on a proper surround setup at a later date if that's the way you later decide to go.
    You could also use the speakers which are already in the TV as the centre speaker for a full surround sound system, with a bit of nifty cablework if you wanted.

    For you, a decent surround sound setup can be bought for a lot less than you are already considering spending.
    £600-700 will give you everything you need, plus Dolby ProLogic2 and perhaps the extended suround modes, Dolby Digital EX and DTS-ES.

    Which model are these Celestions you are considering?
    Are they silver? If not, then that opens up a whole new dimension of alternative speakers for you, many at far less cost than £550, and many of which are excellent quality.
    The new Kef Q1's for instance at £250ish - 8ohms and high sensitivity of 91dB may suit for attaching to the TV, and are also capable of being used with far more capable amplifiers than the one in the TV, should you upgrade in the future.
     
  14. Peter Shilton

    Peter Shilton
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    Thanks for yor advice

    These are the speakers

    http://www.homecinemachoice.com/tes...kerPackages/Celestion/CelestionC-System.shtml


    They are a better silver than they look in the pic and the problem I have is that I WANT them.

    I just have to justify them and make them work.

    I have nowhere to put the centre speaker, so in the cabinet seemed obvious to me.

    I assumed that the existing outputs (I have speaker connections from the TV (which is Dolby digital)) would work like a preamp. I have 2 surround, 2 external and a plug for a sub.
     
  15. MikeK

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    If you are dead set on them, then I suspect you are going to buy them come what may ;)

    Your power amp idea will only work as I stated above - it's a lot of messing about and cost for little real gain - and it probably won't work that well anyway - besides, 5 channel power amps aren't cheap either.


    At 4 ohms, the C2s may work connected directly to the TV, but you may be taking a bit of a risk - I wouldn't be too concerned on most normal amps, but the amp in a TV?, I'm not too sure.
    You could of course just try it, but I won'y give you any guarantees. Yes, it's possible to blow the amp in the TV, and yes it's possible to fry the tweeters in the C2s.

    Your dealer is right in one respect though - you won't really be getting the full benefit like that anyway, not by a long way.

    If you really want those speakers, then IMO you really need an AV amp to drive them properly, for the type of use you want to put them to. Something like a Yamaha 5540 or 5550 in Titanium may well float your boat (around £250 and £350 repectively) nadis probably really roundabout the minimum you should consider!
    Ideally, you'd also want the matching C series centre speaker too, although you could use the TV as a dedicated centre speaker if you wish (with a bit of cablework) - may not match the C2s that well though!
    Probably no real need for matching rears, although it's often nice, even if just from an aesthetic viewpoint.
     

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