NTSC Wii output (i.e., 480i, 480p) questions

Y

Yayner

Guest
Question one:

As I understand it, NTSC has a nominal 720x480 resolution. (3:2 ratio)
However, it has an aspect ratio of 4:3 due to having rectangular pixels, every pixel being roughly 0.9 times as wide as it is high. A reasonable way to get a square pixel image with the same aspect ratio is to convert it to 640x480, losing some horizontal resolution in the process. As I understand it, this doesn't degrade image quality very much.

The actual question, then, is as follows:
A 480i/480p image should scale rather cleanly to 1280x960 on a computer monitor... right?

Question one-point-five:

Likewise, the PAL resolution of 720x576 wouldn't scale as well to that particular resolution, would it? (though it does, of course, have a higher resolution to begin with. And it would scale nicely to something like 1532 * 1152)

Question two:

What kind of signal does the Wii output in widescreen mode?

Question three:

Does the Wii output consecutive half-frames or all-unique fields when it's running interlaced?

I would be grateful for answers or pointers to the right directions. Or just plain speculation, as this is more a matter of idle curiosity than anything else :D
 

knobby67

Standard Member
1 There are several variations of NTSC, as far as I know NTSC does not have a 720x480, it may well have but I don’t know. As to it scaling to a monitor nicely, no it doesn’t. But again this depends on the monitor resolution, monitor size, the scaling software/hardware etc. The easy way to do this on yours is download some NTSC programme and play it full screen.
1.5 Again on paper maybe but that has little to do with the practical end of things.

2 Depends on if you set it to component or composite. But both are available. If you mean signal type? It does PAL on UK version.

3. I’m an R&D engineer and have not idea what your on about here, as far as I always thought all interlaced pictures use consecutive half-frames, unique fields are used for VGA ,HD inputs and progressive frame inputs, the Wii has component out progressive
 
Y

Yayner

Guest
1 There are several variations of NTSC, as far as I know NTSC does not have a 720x480, it may well have but I don’t know. As to it scaling to a monitor nicely, no it doesn’t. But again this depends on the monitor resolution, monitor size, the scaling software/hardware etc. The easy way to do this on yours is download some NTSC programme and play it full screen.
The thing is, 640x480 to 1280x960 is simply pixel doubling. You take every pixel and make it two pixels wide and high and presto - you've got the exact same image, just four times bigger.

2 Depends on if you set it to component or composite. But both are available. If you mean signal type? It does PAL on UK version.
I'm wondering what the actual resolution of the widescreen image is. It would make sense for it to simply be wider... but then where would they get that extra resolution from? Is it a completely different set of timings, or is it just some creative fudging?

3. I’m an R&D engineer and have not idea what your on about here, as far as I always thought all interlaced pictures use consecutive half-frames, unique fields are used for VGA ,HD inputs and progressive frame inputs, the Wii has component out progressive
This could be some misconception of mine, but this is what I'm thinking of: The NTSC rate is sixty fields per second (and the PAL fifty). A field is half the lines of the 'full' resolution. That's 240 lines per field for NTSC, and ~288 for PAL. Say you have a source that has 60 actual frames per second - that's 120 fields worth of data, and you can only show 60 fields per second, so you take the first field of the first frame, then the second field of the second frame, and so on - you show exactly half the material in real time, but it works out ok.

But what if you have a source that only has 30 actual frames per second? You can take the first half of the first frame, then the second half of the first frame, and so on - and you show all the visual data in the 30 frames using 60 fields in one second. Complete frames in consecutive fields, though still interlaced.

Now, I have no idea if this actually looks any better on an interlaced display. And you lose half of your framerate... but the thing is, progressive scan does much the same thing (except of course for showing full frames instead of two interlaced half-frames) and because of that, a progressive resolution can only do 30fps anyway! (Well, at least for 480p - I have no idea what the framerates for the HD resolutions are) :lesson:

So if you have a game that, in its best visual mode, only runs at 30fps anyway - why would you go to the trouble of making it run 60fps interlaced? That's an unnecessary hassle, unless for some reason it would look worse, and I can't imagine that it would. So I think what you do is display complete frames. Make sense?

The reason I'm interested is that such a signal would be REALLY easy to deinterlace, which would work out quite nicely for me :smoke:
 

Gold Feet

Novice Member
What frames per sec do you get if you run a game in PAL 60 and the TV does the de interlacing?
On my LCD, PAL Gamecube games seem to look better than NTSC at 480i or P
 
Y

Yayner

Guest
What frames per sec do you get if you run a game in PAL 60 and the TV does the de interlacing?
On my LCD, PAL Gamecube games seem to look better than NTSC at 480i or P
If I knew, I'd probably have my answer as well. The PAL PS2 is the only console I have solid experience with in this regard, and I'm pretty much sure it creates 50 unique half-frames per second. But then, I have no progressive games (they're pretty scarce in Europe, I think) for it so I don't know how those run.

And my original question was dumb in that it almost certainly wouldn't be up to the system - it would be up to the game. As for your cube, PAL does have a higher resolution, period, when it comes down to it. All else being equal, a PAL game should look better if it's a good conversion. And regardless of the TV deinterlacing, you'll get whatever fps the game is producing. For PAL the maximum is 50, so it should be 50 or 25... I guess. (Do I sound unsure much? :D)
 

Gold Feet

Novice Member
Hmm, Im trying to figure out why 480P for the PAL Wii, when 576 is superior and modern TVs de interlace anyway :confused:
 

radiokid

Standard Member
Has it been confirmed that PAL Wii's actually output at 576i? I recon that they do 480i/p, and then your TV simply upscales. Or even that the games themselves are 480i/p and the Wii upscales to 576i/p. Just my opinion though.
 
Here are some facts...

NTSC Full Screen 720*480 = 640* 480 Actual Displayed
PAL Full Screen 720*576 = 768*576 Actual Displayed
NTSC Widescreen 720*480 = 854*480 Actual Displayed
PAL Widescreen 720*576 =1024*576 Actual Displayed

PAL 60 = NTSC = Lower Resolution than standard PAL 50, the extra 10FPS is not worth the drop in resolution..

So best Using PAL Widecreen Setting "NO PAL 60" , if you use PAL 480P then it's the same resolution as NTSC, why they don't have 576P is beyond be.., all this PAL 60 stuff is a load of crap, just changes to NTSC...

1024*576 is not far off HD either, looks pretty close, always prefer PAL over NTSC due to higher resolution

Well those are the facts, don't let anyone tell you otherwise..

So when you get your Wii decide what is better for you, 576i "1024*576i" or 480P " 854*480P", if you have an Interlaced TV then don't use the PAL 60 option as it will lower your resolution, for Progressive displays even though 480P has a lower resolution it will probably look better than 576i as it is Progressive..
 
Has it been confirmed that PAL Wii's actually output at 576i? I recon that they do 480i/p, and then your TV simply upscales. Or even that the games themselves are 480i/p and the Wii upscales to 576i/p. Just my opinion though.
It has to output 576i same as any other PAL Device, 480i is only for NTSC Devices, also don't think we will get 576P only 480P essentially an NTSC Resolution..
 

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