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NTSC problems B&W Picture

Discussion in 'TVs' started by Kendo, Sep 15, 2002.

  1. Kendo

    Kendo
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    Hi,

    Can anyone help me with this.
    I have a Sanyo 28WN3 Television, and a new Sony DAV 800 DVD/Home cinema.
    I previously played all my region 1 discs on the Sanyo using a Samsung 807 DVD connected through RGB Scart.
    On hooking up the Sony however I can only get a B&W picture. The Sony does not have any scarts, so I have it connected via S-Video (It does the same using composite video). I have a S-Video cable coming from the Sony to the TV Scart via a Scart adaptor which accepts the S-video cable and is switchable In/Out.
    There are very limited options in the menu re externals (switching S_video On or Off).
    Does anyone know if this television does not accept an NTSC signal. (as I have previously said the Samsung DVD gave me no problems and was connected via RGB scart).

    Can the NTSC be activated from a service menu and if so can I access it.

    Any help would be appreciated

    Thanks

    Kendo
     
  2. Squirrel God

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    Try using one of the other scart sockets on the TV if you haven't already done so as they might not all be S-Video capable.

    There may be a way to enable NTSC for S-Video via the service menu on your TV (I'm sorry but I don't know how to get into the service mode on Sanyo's but someone else who posts after me might :)). This sometimes has to be done because it is not enabled by default (stupid I know!), e.g. some Sony TVs don't enable NTSC for S-Video by default. I think this is least likely though because you don't mention that you have a rolling black and white picture.
     
  3. Kendo

    Kendo
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    Thanks Squirrel,
    I have tried the other scart, and that doesnt work either. The black and white picture is stable and of good quality, just no colour!
    I assumed because the samsung worked in colour through RGB the S-Video would.

    Thanks for your help anyway it is appreciated.
     
  4. Kendo

    Kendo
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    I have now managed to get my hands on a service manual for the TV, but even although I can access the service menus, I have been unable to produce a colour picture. C'est la vie!
    New TV time:)
     
  5. LV426

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    If your DVD player has either a switch or menu option that allows you to choose between eg: PAL/Auto/NTSC - my guess is it is currently set to Auto. Try setting it to PAL.
     
  6. symanski

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    First, lets get one thing clear - can you never get a colour picture even with UK DVDs? I ask as you''ve got a UK DAV system, therefore it outputs PAL. I think the problem lies elsewhere, as Squirrel God was suggesting.

    Check the specification of your TV to ensure that it can take S-Video in on one of the SCART sockets, and see if there's an S-Video input in the front.

    The reason that I ask is that S-Video has two signals, one for the B&W image and one for the colour overlay. If your TV isn't expecting the colour overlay, you'll only get a B&W image no matter which video standard your using!

    All the best,

    John.
     
  7. Kendo

    Kendo
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    Hi John

    The Dav800 is a uk model but it has a techtronics mutlimod chip fitted (done by techtronics).
    I can get colour S-VHS using Region 2 Discs on the Sanyo TV.
    When I hook the DAV up to my 10 year old Panasonic A2 via S-Video I can get colour from region 1 discs, therefore the problem isnt with the DAV.

    Remember also that I did get a colour picture on the Sanyo from region 1 discs when using my samsung 807 DVD.
    It could be that the Samsung was outputting some quasi pal signal and that the Sanyo tv is PAL only.

    Regards

    Kendo
     
  8. Kendo

    Kendo
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    I havent seen any switches or menu options but I will certainly check - Thanks
     
  9. symanski

    symanski
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    In that case I'd agree that the Samsung 807 is probably outputing quasi PAL.

    NTSC has the colour at 3.58MHz, with PAL being at 4.43MHz. Quasi PAL is simply NTSC with the colour located at 4.43MHz, where it would be with PAL.

    Some equipment will allow you to use the Quasi PAL, even if it's only that it doesn't support NTSC fully. Some TVs (like the Sony 32FQ75) will require that NTSC support be switched on. In the case of the Sony, you've got to get access to the service menus (and the Sony is supposed to support NTSC out of the box!). Some DVD players will give you the option, mostly in user set-up menus.

    If you don't have either of these, what can you do? There's some devices that will move the colour signal from the NTSC to PAL position, but I've never tested one so can't say how good a job they do. Or if they're intellegent enough to leave PAL signals alone! Price for this is below £100.

    Otherwise, you'll have to change one of your items, either the DVD or the TV, to get away from this incompatiblity.

    All the best,

    John.
     
  10. Kendo

    Kendo
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    Hi John

    I managed to access the TV service menu.

    the following settings were in place for NTSC

    NTSC BG Ntsc 4.43 Mhz Config ON/OFF = ON
    NTSC M NTSC 3.58Mhz Config ON/OFF = OFF (OFF Imperative)

    I changed both settings to ON and both to OFF and then tried them alternatively one ON and One OFF.

    The only change was when both were at ON and that resulted in a very slight jerking of the picture.

    However the fact that these items existed made me think the TV should handle NTSC (maybe I am wrong in assuming this).

    I read a thread on another post that was commenting on how the connectors that are used to take S-video to Scart can confuse the television. It is apparently down to the fact that scart was never intended to be used for S-Video and that the pins used for RGB are used for the purpose. I have to admit that this is getting a bit beyond me, but it has lead me to believe that it may be a possible cause, as I am using said connector. I will check out whether there are different wiring combinations that exist.

    And if that fails Ill buy a new Telly!

    thanks again for your help

    Kendo
     
  11. smallman28

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    I noticed that the DAV800 has a composite connection as well,might be worth trying that first to see if it is the tv that is not NTSC compatable or if it is the SVHS connection that is causing problems.
    I presume you have a front mounted composite connection on the tv?
     
  12. Kendo

    Kendo
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    Hi smallman

    Thanks for that, talk about missing the obvious - DOH!

    I have tried the composite and it is still inputting B&W, so that would suggest it is the tv and not the connector.

    Thanks for your help

    Kendo
     
  13. Mikef

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    Hi Kendo, may I ask a slightly off topic question...in your note, you said that the Sony does not have any scarts...do you mean that you cannot connect it to your tv via a scart/rgb connector, or that the kit just didn't come with a scart cable?

    cheers

    mikef
     
  14. symanski

    symanski
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    The DAV systems only have S-Video out, they don't even have S-Video in - which would have been handy!

    I don't think it will be a problem with going to SCART now, I think we've covered that earlier. SCART can take RGB and S-Video, but not at the same time. This is due to pins being shared in the connector (see the Tech section of my website).

    It's difficult to say without having a look at the TV and DVD player, but I'd say that the TV is probably not NTSC compatible. I've checked with the Techtronics website, and the DVD is outputing NTSC for R1 discs, not Quasi PAL. So I think your Samsung player was able to use Quasi PAL and therby allowing your TV to show colour. Time for a new TV.

    All the best,

    John.
     
  15. Kendo

    Kendo
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    I have now (at last) had the official word from Sanyo, and they have confirmed that the television is region 1 only, and will not accept an NTSC signal.

    Thanks all of you who took the time to try and resplve this for me, it is much appreciated.

    Cheers

    Kendo

    "Please Miss can I have a new TV?":rolleyes:
     
  16. Squirrel God

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    I hope Sanyo didn't actually say that. Regions only apply to DVDs and DVD players. Furthermore, Region 1 disks are NTSC.

    At least you now know officially that the TV is not NTSC-capable though. :)
     
  17. LV426

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    I find it hard to believe that the DVD section of this system doesn't give you the option of selecting to output PAL from an NTSC disc - (virtually?) all DVD players have such an option. In some, it is a switch on the rear panel; in others it is a menu or remote control option.

    It also seems unlikely that, if you find and select such a setting on the Sony, the TV won't show you colour.

    I can only suggest that, before you go to the expense of a new TV, you search, once again for such an option, and/or contact a Sony dealer to find out for sure, if there is such a selection. If you can absolutely confirm that, given an NTSC disc, the DVD will only output NTSC (and not either PAL50 or more probably PAL60 - aka quasi pal) then a new TV goes on your shopping list.

    If, however (as I think is more likely) the Sony has such a setting, you should try it. If you still get B&W (or nothing) then, again, a new TV is needed.
     
  18. Squirrel God

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    Start believing! All Sony DVD players output only as follows:

    NTSC ----> NTSC and PAL ----> PAL

    It is true of my Sony DVP-NS300, Kendo's Sony DAV-S800, and all Sony DVD players.

    Details for S800: http://www.techtronics.com/uk/shop/50-sony-dav-s800-multi-region-dvd-player.html
     
  19. LV426

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    OK I;ll take your word for it. Seems like an omission and a good reason to avoid Sony DVD players (unless you have a multistandard TV).

    Kendo - this is bad news, then.

    Take a look at the CN100P here (£49.95) which should solve your problem more cheaply than a new TV:

    http://www.lektropacks.co.uk/product/technical.asp?dept_id=106&sku=73
     
  20. symanski

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    There are several problems with these little boxes.

    1. They're for composite video only, not S-Video.

    2. What happens if you put in PAL?? Some won't adjust to PAL, and you don't really want extra processing for a PAL singal.

    3. If you did just route the colour via this and left the luminance alone (which would be a neat solution), you'd get a colour offset. Both luminance and colour must have the same delay.

    When you start to look at ones that can do S-Video, the price seems to jump!

    All the best,

    John.
     
  21. Squirrel God

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    Isn't a pure NTSC signal better than a PAL-60 one anyway, assuming the TV can handle it (and most new TVs can these days)? I always thought that was why Sony didn't bother with it :confused: Anyway, the biggest reason to avoid DAVs is the lack of RGB output IMO - not something I could really live without. Other than this, I think Sony make some rather splendid DVD players :)
     
  22. symanski

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    Absolutely!

    Shouldn't be as important with S-Video as it was with laserdiscs with composite output, but still important. If going down the multi-region DVD player route (and why wouldn't you) it's best to check that your TV will be able to handle NTSC, even on the RGB input!

    All the best,

    John.
     
  23. LV426

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    I've never seen either

    a) an objective explanation OR
    b) any subjective evidence

    that this is the case.
     
  24. symanski

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    My laserdisc player has the ability to play back in PAL60. When you do, you get a hatching noise throughout the picture. Hence, I say that it's not a good idea for composite. It is fine when playing back NTSC as NTSC or PAL as PAL.

    I can't say for sure why this is the case, but it may be that the TV expects to be able to place a chroma filter in at one point, or it may be that you've got the cross colour noise remodulated. Either way. the result is a NTSC picture which has a high degree of noise present. The laserdisc is effectively doing what these external boxes would have to do.

    Since S-Video has a seperate chroma signal, I'm assuming that it would be fine, but there are other problems with timing that would need addressed. If you don't get the timing spot on, less than say 200ns, then you'll notice that the colour is shifted with respect to the luminance. But you've also have to demodulate and remodulate a colour signal, which might not be a good idea as it will cause further colour bleed.

    Nigel, the external boxes aren't a bad idea, it's just that you could probably do better. But when looking to do a conversion of any kind, you've got to start off with the best possible signal and threat it carefully to get the best results. Otherwise you might as well trade your DVD player in for a VCR!!

    All the best,

    John.
     
  25. LV426

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    So, it would be accurate to say that, in your case, with your equipment, you had a poorer experience with NTSC as PLAL60 than NTSC as NTSC.

    When I started out on LD, with a Pioneer 1450 and a very old Sony 28" TV (PAL only) I clearly had to use PAL60. Indeed, the Pioneer 1450 had no 'pure NTSC' option. And I experienced no such problem.

    With my current setup - a Pioneer 737 DVD, and a Sony VW10 projector, I can detect no visible difference, when used via composite (which I don't normally do) between pure NTSC and PAL60.
     
  26. symanski

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    Yes, NTSC was best viewed as NTSC and not as PAL 60. I even tried this on different, but similar equipment (well, we've all got Sony TVs). It wasn't completely guff, you could watch it if you really wanted to, but the NTSC picture was very pure and clear. Therefore, based upon my experience I'd say to avoid this if you can.

    But getting back to the point, there doesn't seem to be a solution that supports S-Video. Which means that the solution really is to change over the TV. I'd imagine that Kendo wants to keep the DAV system since it's also his surround sound system (and looks rather trick). I can't think of any other solution that would provide a quick and inexpensive solution.

    All the best,

    John.
     
  27. smallman28

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    I had a Philips tv that wasn't NTSC compatable and so I got a cheapo converter,well it gives a picture it isnt ideal as it lost quite a bit of clarity and the edges of things had a slight ghosting effect,also if you played region2 you had to remove the converter as it totally knackers the signal.
    The only way I found round this was to use a composite connection for region1 through the converter and a direct SVHS connection from the DVD to the front of the tv for region2.
    Suffice to say they work but it somewhat spoils the DVD concept as far as picture clarity is concerned.
     

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