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NTSC judder, my imagination or not?

Discussion in 'Movie Forum' started by one_jedi, Aug 23, 2003.

  1. one_jedi

    one_jedi
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    I know all about NTSC judder and in fact first noticed it before I knew about the differences between NTSC and PAL when I got my first R! dvd Fight Club, at the time I just thoght it was my player tho!

    Anyway I never really notice NTSC judder apart from panning shots, a couple of months ago I was watching my X-Men dvd and I forgot it was NTSC. However I was watching my R1 Two Towers the other day and the judder was really bad, not just panning shots but the whole film seemed really jerky. Now I don't know if was just me convincing myself it was there or it was just to do with the way it was filmed with lots of fast movement and action on screen and a very sharp transfer. I've also been watching my princess Mononoke R1 dvd recenlty but seeign as the is animation I don't really notice the judder at all apart from panning shots. Anyone with the R1 or even the R2 Two Towers have any opinions on this?

    I find recently that I'm also doing the same with Pal DVD's, I find myself thinking "Am I actaully noticing a higher pitch and everything moving faster or am I just convincing myself that i'm noticing them?!"

    Anyway I was just wondering how much other people notice the NTSC judder, do you not notice it at all, what is your general opinion on it? Do you hate it and prefer Pal, do you sometime notice it but not bother you?

    Should be watching The Two Towers again tonight so i'll see how it goes! I know I should forget about all this and just enjoy the film but it is really bugging me!
     
  2. figrin_dan

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    I don't notice the judder when watching raw NTSC but do on Pal60 and NTSC-PAL conversions.

    I noticed really horrible judder in the Matrix reloaded at the cinema - I assume this is due to lazy CGI which could explain TTT.
     
  3. Duncan Harvey

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    On a cheap player doing an on the fly conversion, judder is extremely obvious. But when watching pure NTSC, I dont really notice it unless there is a really slow pan. Even then I suspect its my "brain" seeing it (ie I'm aware of 3:2 pulldown so I "think" its there) as opposed to my eyes seeing it.

    Put it this way, 3:2 pulldown has never been as obvious to me as PAL speedup, which is the main reason why 99 times out of 100 I'll buy the R1 version of a film as opposed to R2
     
  4. Darth_Fisto

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    I first noticed NTSC judder before I knew the differences between PAL and NTSC. But this was because my Player was converting NTSC to PAL 50, or something like that.

    I now play NTSC raw. I notice the judder on panning shots and that is about it. I don't buy many R1 DVD's, only if they are unavailable or cut in the UK (Death To Smoochy and Eraser being the best two examples I can think of).

    I don't notice the PAL speed up and therefore much prefer PAL.
     
  5. Dimmy

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    I thought this was my eyes or my brain or something else wrong with me.

    I noticed some sort of judder - and almost like a very slight inconsistency in the brightness of the frames - with The Matrix & T3. Is this problems with NTSC/PAL conversion? Is it the Pulldown effect that my eyes are detecting? Or am I just crazy?
     
  6. Duncan Harvey

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    It all depends on how you are watching R1 material.

    If your TV can cope with an NTSC signal, then tell your player to play NTSC "as" NTSC - this should get rid of the judder inherent in an "on the fly" conversion.

    If your TV can't cope with NTSC, then its time to get a new TV!!
     
  7. Gordon @ Convergent AV

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    Alot of judder seen at cinema is probably down to the fact that 24 frames per second, even though it's 48Hz at cinema, is not enough for smooth motion.

    Gordon
     
  8. HMHB

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    I didn't realise this was a problem. I've only got a couple of R1 DVDs but have noticed it quite a bit on Heartbreak Ridge (I just put it down to me being drunk). My TV does handle NTSC so I have to figure out how to tell the DVD player to play as NTSC. I only have a cheapo LG player so it might not be possible.
     
  9. Gordon @ Convergent AV

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    There is inherent judder in pans on NTSC played at 60Hz. This is due to the 2:3 sequence John.

    Gordon
     
  10. FoxyMulder

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    I saw a documentary on one of the extras on a disc i forget the name of, but the special effects CGI guy said its really hard to do realistic judder type effects but that on fast motion its now possible and they do this on certain films, could it be some of what you are watching in some films is deliberate and meant to be there.?
     
  11. Jeff

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    Gladiator has deliberate judder in some scenes, personally I find 3:2 judder very obvious and off putting.
     
  12. B Caine

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    I must be very lucky, I have never seen any judder or pull down on my Sony ?725 and my Sony FD1 tv, I know they both are good sets and as said maybe the less expensive players are prone to show this, or my ignorance IS bliss.
     
  13. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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  14. bastogne

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    It's even more remarkable that you find it 'obvious' considering you live in a country where ALL film material on TV and video is shown at 25fps. Yet despite this you can still notice a 4% difference in the pitch of someone's voice. Obviously you can also tell which soundtracks have been pitch corrected and which haven't. An amazing achievement on which you should be congratulated - considering we're talking about a speedup of just 4%. What a shame your eyes are nowhere near as sharp as your ears - if they were you might have noticed the ghastly juddering effect of 3:2 pulldown like the rest of us. Ah yes, there's nothing like watching a smooth pan transformed into a jerky, stuttering movement straight out of a Ray Harryhausen movie. The wonders of R1. :rolleyes:

    Some people might regard the comments by you and people like you, as an attempt at self-deception. One designed, understandably, to justify your collection of R1 discs. I, of course, am not one of these cruel people. :laugh:
     
  15. one_jedi

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    When talking about Pal spped up everyone only mentions the audio, does any notice or claim to notice the speed up of the visuals, things moving faster then they should?
     
  16. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    I know quite a few folk who have pitch perfect hearing and can tell the speed up. I can't. Although I'm sure I could with the reference of the correct one in an A/B comparison

    Gordon
     
  17. figrin_dan

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    Grrrrrr
     
  18. StooMonster

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    :rotfl:

    3:2 pull-down judder, if not immediately apparent in any pans, sticks out like a sore thumb in end credits.

    Watch those titles jjj-uu-ddd-dd-eee-rr up the screen ... not that it matters then, but does show it.

    Watched the R1 of "Star Trek: Nemesis" when it was released, forgive my poor taste in DVD I thought it might be better than the steaming pile it is, and the pans across the starship Enterprise and other spaceships hurt my eyes.

    I get a mix of R1/R2 discs, but sometimes this judder does bite about R1, and yes I can hear speedup in R2 too -- but only if it hasn't been pitch adjusted, and it's a familar tune (e.g. a Prodigy track, which are in so many movies).

    StooMonster
     
  19. one_jedi

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    Yeah the judder is annoying but I was wondering if any claims to see the pal speed up in movement.
     
  20. StooMonster

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    Yep, I was :rotfl: at the thought of anyone claiming to see a 4% increase in speed of motion.

    "I can't stand PAL because when Arnie waives his Uzi 9mm in Terminator, I can see that his arms moves 4% faster than is natural therefore I buy all Region 1 DVDs." :clown:

    StooMonster
     
  21. puddleduck

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    I used to really notice NTSC judder before I switched over to a projector. Now my Philips 963SA does pull down removal for me, so pans are super smooth, even in NTSC.

    It never really bothered me too much before too be honest - I first noticed it however on my first DVD player, a Samsung 709 - raw NTSC was jerky, but the player had a "pseudo PAL" setting which output at 50Hz and smoothed things out nicely.
     
  22. Matt Horne

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    Phew.. luckily I have not noticed judder/ 3:2 conversion / chroma bug/ PAL Pitch change..... and I hope to stay ignorant!

    :)

    Matt
     
  23. wilber

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    Matt, you just aren't trying hard enough - I've had to go and do a/b tests to check for PAL speedup and find discs with rapid moving pans to check for NTSC judder. It's no good though I can't spot it - What am I doing wrong? should I consult a doctor? do I need to spend even more money to get a prog scan player so that I can reassure myself that NTSC Judder has been eliminated, but then I'd get the Chroma Bug. Better go back to listening to the Radio instead - but should I get a digital radio .........
     
  24. mjn

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    i've never noticed NTSC judder before...until i replaced my Sony 725, with a 905.....now i notice it mostly on slow pans....and its bloody annoying!!
     

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