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Not too impressed by the tosh!

Discussion in 'TVs' started by g_unit, Feb 15, 2005.

  1. g_unit

    g_unit
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    Hello people,

    As some of you may know I'm in the market for a new TV and tosh seemed to be favourite until yesterday... :eek:

    So I went to my local Comet in Collindale (London) where they have the 46" Tosh and 50" Sagem. I took along some DVD's I have seen plenty of times on my Ex Sony 50" LCD RP and know are of good quality. So the line up was Gone in 60 Seconds, The Transporter and Gladiator (just to check the whole blurry issue).

    So I stuck in gone in 60 and skipped to the chapter when they steal the Shelby. Right at the beginning of the chapter there is a pan across some buildings in the distance. First I noticed that as it panned across, the buildings seem to jerk along in little jumps while the normal scenes run fine. Now for the chase, at first I was impressed, colours needed tweaking but generally quite good. But wait - I started noticing a lot of rainbows on the fast cut scenes and it was very bad. Not good. There also seems to be a certain amount of graininess to the image that was not there on my Sony.

    Transporter was pretty much the same as Gone in 60, rainbows, slow panning and a grainy picture on a VERY clear DVD.

    Then I put in Gladiator - Dum Dum Dum... I saw the oil painting effect and solarisation of skin tones :nono: . This put me right off and has pushed the tosh right down on my wanted list.

    The TV was set up with a JVC DVD player connected with some hefty components.

    They had the Sagem 50incher near by set up with a rather poor Shuttle xPC connected via DVI showing a 720p demo. :eek: WOW :eek: - the PQ was stunning, and not a rainbow in sight! So I can forgive the PQ on the Tosh as the Sagem was displaying HiDef, but why no rainbows on the Sagem while there was plenty on the Tosh??

    Unfortunately the Sagems lack of HDMI rules it out :mad: , otherwise the PQ is very good if not better than my Sony 50".

    Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated :lease: . I am still very open minded as to what TV I will buy as all I want is a gooden.
     
  2. Dazzlercee

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    I wouldn't worry too much about the rainbows, unless it affects your eyes of course. Most, if not all, of the current DLP sets will show the rainbow effect to those that can see it (or look for it). I have seen it on the Tosh, the Samsung, the Sagem 50 and the Sagem 45 which I own.

    Although annoying at first, you look past it after a couple of days and the effect can be diminished somewhat by setting the contrast and brightness to the correct levels. The factory settings of these sets are just TOO bright and contrasty which can amplify the rainbow effect.

    After a while you will only see this effect in dark scenes with small high brightness areas, and only when you glance quickly across the screen. Sitting further away from the screen will also help reduce the effect as you won't have to pan across the image as much.

    In short, although other image factors will influence your decision, don't let rainbows be one of them. If you are susceptable to them, you will see them on most DLP sets at some point.
     
  3. Demon

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    I think there are several problems with your demo, that would not show any DLP set off well..

    1. You mention that some of the films 'jerked' on fast pans/action, this is most certainly the DVD player... Jerkiness is not one of the DLP traits. you'd soon know about this, as was the case with R1 disks and the Optoma RD50
    2. This jerkiness would increase the rainbows, as instead of more fluid movement of bright/dark edges with smaller rainbows, you are getting big steps, which will increase the trail length of rainbows and loook far worse then it should
    3. Solarisation of colours in gladiator - The only 'DLP' trait, that all suffer from is the 'smearing' which is due to the temporal dithering, and does not give the same effect as 'solarisation' or colour banding.. if you saw bad solarisation, then this sounds like a by-product of a cheap DVD player...

    As is usual in demoing in stores, it helps if you have a 'level' playing field..

    I've been looking myself, and gone to the bother of taking a DVI->HDMI lead down to the store, and trying the Samsung 50", the Sagem 50", and the Tosh 46", and with Hi-Def, they are all extremely good, you can see the differences, but its more personal 'choice' then seeing any unsdesirable traits.. other then the smearing appears on all the DLP's, but is more affected by viewing position then anything else.. I could see rainbows on all the DLPs I've tested, but they where so minimal, I think I could live with them, and certainly there wasn't one DLP set that 'stood out' as being particularly bad or good..

    The biggest difference I saw was the Toshiba and Samsung do have a noticeably better black level, and the Samsung's processing yields a slightly softer picture then the Tosh, which is harsh, but appears to be more detailed.. both appeal for different sources and personal taste..
     
  4. g_unit

    g_unit
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    I understand what you are saying about the DVD player, but this one was over £100 (as far as I can remember) so it’s not that cheap!

    I have a £40 no-name DVD player at home that I use in my bedroom and it doesn't show this jerky movement. At the moment I have SkyD, Analogue cable (booo) and an average DVD player + my surround setup in my living room. I am going to try my best to base my purchase on real world use rather than HD quality. I think most of these sets will display good HD, but for the majority of the time I will be viewing normal feeds. Even when sky decide to switch, only big channels will start out having HD so even then most viewing will be SD feeds.

    So my main concern is how well these TV's display normal Sky etc as that is what I will be watching the most. HD is undoubtedly going to be good on all of them to varying degrees, but when Sky start asking for an extra tenner a month for it I'm sure a lot more people will hold out on HD.

    Overall I think demo’ing TV’s with HD stuff is good test of the sets capabilities, but not a very good test of real world usage. If my old 50incher can produce a good pic from an average/poor skyD feed and average DVD player, why should I have to buy a £200+ DVD player to get a good pic on the tosh… if that makes any sense!?!?


    Thanks for comments guys, the hunt continues!!!

    I think some more tests are in order
     
  5. g_unit

    g_unit
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    On another note - I do like the Samsung, but the screen smear issue is a little worrying as is the price. Arrrrgh
     
  6. dalespitfire

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    Well, all I can say is that I continue to be amazed by the Tosh. And I aint easily pleased!

    I watched Lawrence of Arabia (Superbit) and Shark Tale yesterday, and was totally blown away by what I saw. The contrast in colours between desert and sky was unbelievable in Lawrence, and Shark Tale.....well I just couldn't believe what I was seeing, truly awesome.

    Did you make any picture adjustments when you viewd the Tosh? If not I would suggest you go back and have another play before you discount it.

    Spose it is all down to personal taste though....I hated the Sagem image, all the whites looked to artificial and overblown and the blacks never looked black.
     
  7. g_unit

    g_unit
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    By the time I got there yesterday they were closing in half hour so only has time for a quick play. I'm going to go back their today and also to Currys down the road to demo the Samsung.

    I havn't discounted the Tosh completely, but it has got a lot of work to do before I will be impressed by it. The fact that so many people like yourself are happy with it I'm sure it is a good TV, just need to see it for myself!
     
  8. St_ve

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    Don't bother demoing the sets with hidef as they will all give a good picture i'd stick to DVDs try & get them to use component or DVI/HDMI & you should see a perfect picture with a decent DVD player.If you see rainbows looking straight at the set DLP might not be for you. I had my set for 3 weeks before i saw one.
    When i was using my cheap Limit DVD player i never saw any graininess or bluring (except on R1 dvds)the picture was good- however with a top end DVD player ( a PC in my case) the picture is excellent
     
  9. g_unit

    g_unit
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    I agree with you St_ve, even a cheapo DVD player should still give good pictures. As for the rainbows, I only seem to see them on darker scenes and I think the longer I watch the TV the more I’ll get used to it. Its not the end of the world just cause there's a flicker of colour here and there for a few split seconds I think :zonked: .

    So now my quest for a new TV continues... Yesterday I went to Currys (Staples Corner) with the same DVD's to try out the Samsung ‘on a totem pole’ TV :D . The setup here was a Denon DVD player connected through a crappy JVC scart. So I whacked in my DVD's (no remote so a lot of waiting around for the good bits :boring: ) now even with the excessive lighting there the Samsung clearly has the better pq. I was truly impressed and this is the first set I can honestly say has a better pic than my ex Sony :eek: . Pin sharp picture, very natural colours on standard setting and no blurring or anything. I was very impressed by the TV, compared with the Tosh the colours were a lot more natural and closer to what the DVD should be like. Although I recon the Tosh is brighter, the PQ overall is better on the Sammy. Also Gladiator looked sweet as a nut on the Sammy, no oil painting or colour burn/solarisation of skin tones :D :D .

    Now the problem is the Sammy is at least £400 more than the tosh and possibly more!
    I think I'm gonna go nuts or start crying, this is sooo hard :censored: .
     
  10. say33d

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    hey g_unit, did u try and view the 46inch sammy at currys??? how did the fair?
     
  11. g_unit

    g_unit
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    Is that the square one, i.e. not on a pedestal?

    If thats what your talking about, no as this was the only TV with a DVD player attached to it! I will take my own DVD player down possibly today to compare with some plasma's etc. Also I think using the same dvd player on all sets will give a better comparison.
     
  12. say33d

    say33d
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    good idea. i have not seen any comments about the samsung 46inch dlp (not the pedistal one) good if u could test that 2
     
  13. dalespitfire

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    Erm, if you are talking about the 50" pedestal Sammy (SP50L7HXX), then try twice as much as the Tosh!! Then you need a stand........
     
  14. St_ve

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    You should give the Sagem 45 a demo
    also the optoma rd50 if NTSC payback is not important to you.
     
  15. say33d

    say33d
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    samsung UK supply the50" pedestal Sammy SP50L7HXX WITH glass shelves to put all your AV stuff on. not actually seen it, but i know they do. wondering if anyone has seen one or has a picture of it?
     
  16. soni

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    :) :thumbsup:
    Hey Guys! Your making me kind of jelous sitting here reading about these rainbows. I've had my set for about 5 weeks now, and have never seen a single rainbow. I've waggled my head left to right, up and down, one evening was sitting there shaking my head like some kind of nut-case (hope theres none reading :rolleyes: ) for about 5 minutes until my neck got sore, and i still couldn't see one. Maybe i should go and get my eyes tested!

    PS - I wear contact lenses, don't know if this could be the reason - maybe thats the quick fix thats required to conquer the DLP Rainbowsssssssss!!!!!!!!
     
  17. kourosh

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    £80 for the glass shelves selfridges still have there display 1 for £1999.99 but thats only for the display i was in london yesterday
     
  18. dalespitfire

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    It's not your head you need to shake, it's REM that does it.

    I don't see em but can FORCE it - that's the difference. Try a scene where it's very dark but with a bright light in it (imagine a chink of light through an open door). Keep your head still, but move your eyes rapidly around the screen and that is the best way I can think of to guarantee seeing one.

    Still, if contacts work for you then that's a stroke of luck!!
     
  19. soni

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    I'll give that a go Dalespitfire - this rainbow thing sounds a bit like those pictures that were around about 12 years ago, you had to stare at them in the same place for about 5 minutes, and cross your eyes over to be able to see another picture within the picture if you know what i mean!! People all over the country were standing in markets looking at the pictures hanging up on the stalls!! Anyway, i'll give it a go!! I might even see Jordon come out of the TV!! :)
     
  20. g_unit

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    With the rainbows I think its also how close you are to the TV, being further away your eyes are essentially moving slower over the screen and they do become less noticable. Also when you are further away you can take in the whole pic without having to look around the screen.

    Standing at roughly my living room distance to the sammy I couldnt see the rainbows. With the tosh at roughly the same distance I could still see them but only slightly. Sagem I didn't see any even up close, but then it was showing a HD feed with no real dark or fast moving scenes.
     
  21. St_ve

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    Best way to see rainbows :
    stare straight ahead and turn your head side to side no need to give yourself whiplash don't focus on the tv screen so long as it's a dark scene you should see them.(but do you really want to. ignorance might be bliss) :devil:
     
  22. Razor

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    Rainbow effects used to be a big problem when dlp front projectors were first released onto the market. But with the latest generation of chips this is becoming a thing of the past. I have only seen the rainbow effect 3 or 4 times in the 12 weeks that I have owned my rd65.
     
  23. soni

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    Rainbow Update! Well, i watched Collateral last night, the night seen with the taxi driving along the carriageway with the high-rise buildings lit up in the background, and especially the scene filmed from inside the cab, with the camera looking straight out of the back window with all the car headlights shining at you, i thought these would have been the ideal test for rainbows, but i still couldn't see any. It can't be my viewing distance stopping them either, as i sit 8.5 feet away so would have thought this would have only increased the chances of seeing them. Its strange though, because allthough i'm glad in one way that i can't see em, there is the other part of me that wants to know what the hell this rainbow thing looks like!
     
  24. welsh113

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    I have had both a thomson and a toshiba DLP and have tried everything to see these rainbows but can not see them.....i think it is grossly over exagerated!!! alot of people try to knock things that are good :) but also i would say that i think people are reporting rainbows when its just sky's bad feed.
     
  25. Razor

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  26. Les

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    I tried this site but see nothing other than the text 'jumping' about. If this demonstrates the 'rainbow' effect then I don't think I need worry - *but* I was looking at it on my laptop LCD screen. Maybe different if viewed via my Toshiba set when I get it.
     
  27. Demon

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    The top 'RAINBOW' text is the one to look at, as it moves, it shows the rainbow effect around the text.. this is 'simulated' and in no way does it mean that if you see it on this demo, you will be susceptible... but a good 'example' none the less..

    The bottom 'RAINBOW' text has no rainbow...

    If viewing on an LCD, make sure the response rate is sufficient.. its fine on my 16ms Dell 2001fp..
     
  28. Les

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    Ah thanks Demon - after concentrating on the top piece of text I managed to see the effect. I think I must have been looking mainly at the 'rainbow' free piece of text the first time.
     
  29. soni

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    I can definately see that rainbow on that link! But, as Demon said, if you can see it on the link, it doesn't mean you'll see it on a TV, as i've never seen anything like that at all on the Tosh - but then again i havn't seen it on any other DLP RP either!!!. There is only one gripe i have with the Tosh - and i won't go into detail as there's enough threads on it - but i just wish there was a a way to stop the panning blur completely, as i can honestly say thats the only thing that is wrong with the Tosh! And by the way, i went to the cinema at Bluewater over the weekend, (you'll probably think i'm out of my head saying this) but honestly, the picture looked pants compared to the Tosh! The colours on the Tosh are better, the Tosh's picture is sharper, and although the Tosh has a bit of panning blur every now and again, the picture at the cinema had a lot of staggering on background objects whilst panning, and also had thread like bits and pieces flickering over the screen every few seconds - i remember these from 10 years ago when i used to go to the cinema regularly, but would have thought these would have been soughted out by now, i also prefer my own 7.1 surround sound better than the cinema as well, and to think it cost me £12 for two tickets, and £15.00 on sweets and drinks! I'll be staying at home next time and watching a DVD on the Tosh - THE TOSH WINS HANDS DOWN!! :clap:
     
  30. g_unit

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    I agree that some people are going on about rainbows a little too much. I can only see them in my peripheral vision, not directly at a point I am looking at. It's kind of like you think you saw it but you can't be sure :rolleyes: .

    As I said before, I am in no doubt that after watching these TV's for a few hours your eyes will adjust and you will get used it :eek: . Not a biggie for me even though I can see em, strange how my dad can't though. Must be my razor sharp vision, maybe I have some super powers..... :cool:

    In my opinion DLP's are the best home cinema solution out there, LCD's (including RP's) colours seem to be artificial and suffer from banding, plasma's (need I say more!!?!) are just too risky for the sakes of burn in etc and CRT is good but you cant have big pure flat screens, oh and are most are bigger than a smart car! The only downside to DLP's IMO is the rainbows which it is not such a major issue. They don't burn, have great PQ and are generally good looking sets. I find most Plasmas and LCDs have a very tacky look to them.

    DLP is the shiznitz!
     

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