Not enough space converting to DVD

TechiMan

Active Member
The bitrate is dependant on the length of video. Unlike music CD, DVD do not use fixed bitrate and its pretty easy to work out.

Say your DVD holds 4.5GB and you have 2 hours of video.

4.5GB = 36,846 Mbits
Divide by number of seconds of video = 5,11 Mbits per second.

If you double the length of video then you have halve the bitrate, etc

Commercial DVD that you buy are usually between 3 and 9 MBits / sec

My VHS to DVD recorder can do 8 hours of VHS (long play 4 hour tape) onto a single sided DVD-R with no noticeable loss in quality, that is around 1.28 MBit/sec and I'm sure it would even manage 10 hour (5 hour tape in LP).
I have several DVDs of home videos which were transferred from a VHS recorder to a standalone DVD recorder, with over 2 hrs of video on them (strangely whoever did the recs copied them onto what appears to be have been DVD media that I thought could only be used on a PC using a DVD writer drive as the discs appear to be designed only for above 1x speed, no idea how that was done. But anyway, the video quality is terrible as you can see every pixel.

I have just done another attempt at converting a 2 hr 33 min video in Handbrake to get the video to fit to a standard DVD. I set to to MP4 and lowered the quality right down to 30 (according to Handbrake is the lowest quality setting). After the conversion I played the video and it looked like VCD quality in MPEG-1, which I suppose is expected (the size read 246MB). But when I dropped the video into Nero Video the video still exceeded past 4GB to 5GB. How the hell can a video be compressed so much yet still not fit to a DVD?. I understand that Nero reencodes the video, but how much compression does this file need to fit?. I can rip a 8GB movie to a 4GB DVD and the quality won't be that bad. I suspect whatever the file size is on this particular video it must be enormous, or the version of Nero I have is the problem.
 
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oneman

Well-known Member
Sorry, I give up trying to explain this to you.

Honestly, 100% the easiest option for you is pay the £150 to get a standalone Panasonic VHS / DVD recorder and use one button transfer option. Once it has created the DVD then use the paid for version of Freemake to rip the DVD to a AVI or MKV file on your laptop.

And use these, I haven't a single one fail on me yet,
Amazon product
 

TechiMan

Active Member
Sorry, I give up trying to explain this to you.

Honestly, 100% the easiest option for you is pay the £150 to get a standalone Panasonic VHS / DVD recorder and use one button transfer option. Once it has created the DVD then use the paid for version of Freemake to rip the DVD to a AVI or MKV file on your laptop.

And use these, I haven't a single one fail on me yet,
Amazon product
The problem with a standalone DVD/VHS recorder is that it only records to MPEG2, and the compression is quite noticeable even in the highest recording quality.

This site looks very cheap for blank media, and I never knew there was such a thing as a 100GB recordable Bluray disc, pity they are ridiculously expensive.


I don't think Bluray will ever become widely popular amongst the masses because DVD is still very much the ideal video format for both viewing films and recording/burning of videos, music, photos, data etc, particularly for PC users. And most people I know say they can't tell the difference in quality.
 

oneman

Well-known Member
The problem with a standalone DVD/VHS recorder is that it only records to MPEG2, and the compression is quite noticeable even in the highest recording quality.
Do you even have any understanding of that statement ?

You know that MPEG2 is the compression method for broadcast TV and I don't think you will complain about that ?
 

LV426

Administrator
Staff member
Unless I missed it above, it's not clear exactly what you are trying to produce out of this. Importantly: are you attempting to make a regular DVD-Video disc that is very likely to play on a standard DVD player or simply to stick files on a disc to play in a computer (and, just possibly some DVD players)?

Do you need to edit the captured video or are you happy to play it back as-is?
 

TechiMan

Active Member
Unless I missed it above, it's not clear exactly what you are trying to produce out of this. Importantly: are you attempting to make a regular DVD-Video disc that is very likely to play on a standard DVD player or simply to stick files on a disc to play in a computer (and, just possibly some DVD players)?

Do you need to edit the captured video or are you happy to play it back as-is?
I am wishing to produce a DVD, not really editing it though. I did decide to copy one MP4 file straight to a DVD (the method described by dragging the file to the DVD drive and coping to a DVD), but none of the DVD players I have, one was an XBox that can play Blurays, recognises it, and I don't imagine any other DVD player will play it either. So kinda pointless unless you're just playing through a PC in VLC player. The file only took about 700MB of disc space.
 

oneman

Well-known Member
I am wishing to produce a DVD, not really editing it though. I did decide to copy one MP4 file straight to a DVD (the method described by dragging the file to the DVD drive and coping to a DVD), but none of the DVD players I have, one was an XBox that can play Blurays, recognises it, and I don't imagine any other DVD player will play it either. So kinda pointless unless you're just playing through a PC in VLC player. The file only took about 700MB of disc space.
Do you know why no other DVD player will play it ?
 

LV426

Administrator
Staff member
Assuming that by "I am wishing to produce a DVD" you are confirming precisely what I said in my question - namely "a regular DVD-Video disc that is very likely to play on a standard DVD player" (as opposed to a data disc containing video files - which probably won't) then - referring again to the FINAL output of whatever software you use - and NOT to any capture or other prior or interim steps - the data applied to the disc itself, as well as being given a file structure and naming convention that is specific to DVD-Video, absolutely MUST be encoded as described in post 32 Not enough space converting to DVD.

DVD-Video is a set of standards that all compliant media has to conform to. There is very little flexibility. Post 32 has details of the pixel structures needed. On top of that there is a very specific file/folder structure used to contain the video material and any player instructions as to how to play it back. None of these things are optional, and you can't create this manually. You need a disc authoring program to do it. Anything else may well play in a computer but will (most probably) not play in a tabletop DVD player.

Alongside the other factors, it HAS to be MPEG 2. There is no choice in the matter. DVD-Video is always encoded MPEG2.

I'll assume (rightly or wrongly) that the program(s) you are trying to use either do, or have the capability of doing, what is called "disc authoring". It is the authoring process that creates that specific file naming and structure convention (and, if you want one, a menu). At the same time, an app designed to, or instructed to, make DVD-Video WILL* re-encode your source material as MPEG 2 and according to one of those specified standards.

So - again - in terms of space on the finished product the SOURCE (i.e. what you capture) file format, compression algorithm, pixel structure etc., etc., is wholly immaterial. The re-encoding itself process will not be affected by it. As far as the encoder is concerned it only sees each frame and its contents, and re-encodes that to comply with the standard. It doesn't care how much data it took.

It is therefore wholly unhelpful and unproductive to, for example, initially capture some material at a low data rate and/or a low pixel count. So doing will degrade the source on capture and the disc author in its re-encoding will not recover what is lost; it can't. Nothing can.

So let's start again.

For your tapes

1: Capture with a pixel and frame rate count using the numbers in post 32. More is OK but unnecessary; less is not; only use that if your capture device can't keep up.
PAL UK HAS to be 720 x 576 @ 50hz; NTSC USA HAS to be 720x480 @ 60hz; you can't mix and match pixels and Hz. Or the halved values listed. Match the source; if it's PAL use a PAL structure.

2: Capture it using a HIGH data rate (i.e. make a big file). That will minimise any compression degradation in the initial capture.

3: (You'll have to work this out for yourself - because I don't know your chosen app intimately). TELL your app that you want it to make a DVD-Video and TELL it what size of disc (4.7g; 8.5g) you intend to burn. If it doesn't let you specify the target media size then you'll have to calculate a data rate as per post 50. Expect to get 2 hours runtime max at reasonable quality on a single layer disc (at the risk of repeating myself - irrespective of the file size of the source captured file).

For the material that was already captured for you onto DVD-Video discs

Either use those discs as-is or, if you want to re-author the contents, extract the contents off to your PC before re-authoring. DO NOT attempt to recapture. There is neither need nor benefit; it will further degrade the material and it will take much longer. If your existing app/s can't do this for you (and it's not a matter of using explorer to drag and drop from the disc) then there are free solutions out there.


=======================
(* WILL: I say that, but some/few disc authoring apps will inspect the source and if it is already compliant with DVD-Video - MPEG2 with one of those pixel/Hz structures - AND if it's already small enough to fit the target disc, will not re-encode it but will simply author it into the correct file structure).
 

tich77

Active Member
I think you need to start from basics.

Lets try to establish two points

You can use DVD disks in of two ways
1. As a dvd video disk. As LV426 has explained, this is a disk that you can put into a dvd player and it will play a film, just like one used to rent from Blockbusters, or buy from Tesco et al. This is DVD-Video. Films on this disk must be encoded using mpeg2 (.mpg), the disk has a specific directory structure, and the film is split into one or more .vob files. Generally, you have to use a software program to create this disk, c/w menus and navigation buttons for it to play back.

2. As a dvd data disk. Think of this as a 4.7GB removable data drive, like a USB flash drive or a large capacity floppy disk - because this is what it is. With Windows 10 you can just drag and drop files to it, and Win10 will happily write away, although you may need to "close" the disk manually.

Such a disk will not do anything when put into a DVD player - or the vast majority of them. However, because you can write any type of file to it, you could write one or more video files (e.g. my_holiday_film.mp4, a-home-video.mpg, a-nother-video.avi my-karaoke.mp3 etc) These can be played back on a PC just like being on a hard disk. And some dvd players, consoles, etc will play back these individual videos - or .mp3 in the example

These two types of DVD are wholly different, and you need to be clear which you are creating.

I do not mean to be condescending, but your posts show a massive lack of knowledge over video standards, video capture, encoding and transcoding (and Nero is transcoding, which is where some of your issues are coming from), and the software. And unfortunately, you need to know the basics for this to understand how to get the results you want, or the limitations imposed on you from your choice of capture method, encoding/transcoding, and tools.

To address a few points
.avi does not produce 'huge' files. It is a container format. The size of the file depends on the encoding format and the compression settins.
VirtualDUB - one of the most powerful video tools from 'yesteryear', but it is not a tool for beginners. It is not a dedicated video capture tool.
Handbrake - a reasonably powerful encoding/transcoding tool with a simple front end so it can be used by all. But, you do need to have a basic grasp of video standards, the tradeoffs of higher compression/smaller file/lower quality vs lower compression/larger files/higher quality.
Encoding - taking uncompressed video and encoding and compressing, e.g. to mpeg2, mp4,
Re-encoding - recompressing file in one format to the same format with different options, e.g. uncompressed (but encoded) mpg and exporting it in compressed format
Transcoding - taking a video file compressed and encoded in, for example mpg format, and re-encoding in another, e.g. mpeg2 to h.264

This is very overly simplified.

mpeg encoding, to use an example, has a huge variety of options, allowing for a very fne control over the output file. BUT accessing these options depends on the software used. Simpl, fee software possibly only allows you to choose PAL/NTSC, some resolution options, a simple size/quality slider. Other, such as Mainconcept Encoder, allow you to specify resolution in pixels, frame rate, number of passes (two always better than one), sub-pixel movement, search width, search height, spatial or temporal search, quant matrix, 4:4:4 through 4:1:1, etc etc etc. Its complicated, encoding takes time, but the results are worth it. TEMPGEnc encoder is another example.

Again overly simplified and just a taster of what isavailable.

Nero Recode is a cheap, "video for dummies" that tries to do it all with a very simple interface. And the results reflect this. For some video, it can produce a decent result - provided nothing much is asked of it. But, it can also produce nonsense results, especially when transcoding is required.

You might notice that all the cheap/free software offers very little in the way of control of the conversion process (ie quality - very low, low, medium, high, highest). Its to keep things simple. But these generally only mean "how much compression - huge, a lot, average, some, almost none") with absolutely no control over the fine tune options that say Mainconcept offers:
If you take any given source file (uncompressed) and run it through crapware and mainconcept, the resulting file from Mainconcept will be superior in every way, and even produce a smaller file.

Why? Because you can control the entire process, every encoder option, colourspace compression, number of passes, bit allocation etc.

I'd suggest having a gander of the FAQs and guides on forums like videohelp.com, doom9.org, digitalfaq.com - but note I said read, I'd really advise against for help until you get the basics.
And also - not criticizing some of the software as you have here - you will be flamed if not banned.
 

oneman

Well-known Member
2. As a dvd data disk. Think of this as a 4.7GB removable data drive, like a USB flash drive or a large capacity floppy disk - because this is what it is. With Windows 10 you can just drag and drop files to it, and Win10 will happily write away, although you may need to "close" the disk manually.

Such a disk will not do anything when put into a DVD player - or the vast majority of them. However, because you can write any type of file to it, you could write one or more video files (e.g. my_holiday_film.mp4, a-home-video.mpg, a-nother-video.avi my-karaoke.mp3 etc) These can be played back on a PC just like being on a hard disk. And some dvd players, consoles, etc will play back these individual videos - or .mp3 in the example
In my experience, most standalone DVD players that understand data discs will need the video encoded with either DivX or Xvid and be in a AVI format.

Anyway, 100% the best option is to create a Video DVD. I use Freemake and never had it fail on me yet. Its literally 4 or 5 clicks and it pretty much accepts any file format for input.


If you add 3 or 4 files it will create a little menu on the DVD allowing you to select which video to playback or you can merge the files into one video.

Just had a quick look through the specs and it will create DL-DVD with up to 40 hours of video if you want to accept low quality it will likely produce having that much video on a 9GB disc.
 

tich77

Active Member
The other thing which springs to mind from having read other posts

Stop trying to capture HD video in H.264 format and convert it to SD video in mpg format. Or worse, trying to create DVD-video using anything other than mpg.

If your source video is PAL standard definition (720x576) then capture at 720x576 25fps, and then write out DVD-video as same.
If its HD (1280x720, 1920x1080 or 1920x1200) then capture at that res, and then transcode down to SD if you must. BUT you will lose a lot of quality doing this.

However you other other underlying problems, to do with hardware.
But firsly, I'd suggest getting a good understanding of video formats and standards first.
 

tich77

Active Member
I have just done another attempt at converting a 2 hr 33 min video in Handbrake to get the video to fit to a standard DVD. I set to to MP4 and lowered the quality right down to 30 (according to Handbrake is the lowest quality setting). After the conversion I played the video and it looked like VCD quality in MPEG-1, which I suppose is expected (the size read 246MB). But when I dropped the video into Nero Video the video still exceeded past 4GB to 5GB. How the hell can a video be compressed so much yet still not fit to a DVD?. I understand that Nero reencodes the video, but how much compression does this file need to fit?. I can rip a 8GB movie to a 4GB DVD and the quality won't be that bad. I suspect whatever the file size is on this particular video it must be enormous, or the version of Nero I have is the problem.
This is why you need to understand formats.

You transcoded you source to MP4, at the highest compression rate. Higher compression = lower quality. There is no "supposing" this is to be expected, it is what will happen. If you set the quality to max then the file would be larger.
But what you then did was, well, frankly, ludicrous - you cannot use MP4 on DVD, DVD uses mpg not mp4. What Nero had to do then was transcode from mp4 to mpg. Note transcode not reencode

Its is not the software that is the problem, its your lack of understanding that is the problem. Please, go read up on standards and formats, get a good understading and then read up on capture, and finally encoding and transcoding.
 

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