Not enough space converting to DVD

strangely tim

Active Member
I tried downloading DVD Shrink (used in the past I think) but it doesn't seem to be available anymore.

I'm still getting very large file sizes and I don't know why. I just edited a home video which is supposed to be 320x240 lines of resolution, although I think when I captured the footage months ago for some reason I captured the footage at 720. When I edited the video down to 30 seconds and then saved as an uncompressed AVI file, for some reason the outputted file was 752MB. I am aware that AVI takes up alot space being very large, but for a 30 second video it surely shouldn't be that large should it?.

DVDShrink is still available, the latest version costs $5 about £3.50 (its a donation). Download DVDShrink for FREE from the OFFICIAL DVDShrink Site! - dvdshrink.org

I collect films, got thousands of disks but don't bother converting these days, simply no need as the majority of modern DVD/BR players will read various video formats, many have a USB port and you can just copy your ripped DVD to usb stick and watch via that. These days I rip to home network (NAS) and my TVs access the files directly, no need for disks or external drives.

If your loosing random files I'd suggest you get a new external drive asap. If your TV is connected to your router you should be able to easily share the videos stored there, your smart TV should be able to read the files, your making your own network.
 

TechiMan

Active Member
DVDShrink is still available, the latest version costs $5 about £3.50 (its a donation). Download DVDShrink for FREE from the OFFICIAL DVDShrink Site! - dvdshrink.org

I collect films, got thousands of disks but don't bother converting these days, simply no need as the majority of modern DVD/BR players will read various video formats, many have a USB port and you can just copy your ripped DVD to usb stick and watch via that. These days I rip to home network (NAS) and my TVs access the files directly, no need for disks or external drives.

If your loosing random files I'd suggest you get a new external drive asap. If your TV is connected to your router you should be able to easily share the videos stored there, your smart TV should be able to read the files, your making your own network.
I finally managed to get hold of a VHS recorder which I borrowed off a relative, a Panasonic VHS/DVD combi equipped with red, yellow and white composite connections at the front plus S-video input, plus two scart connections at the back. So with this I decided to re-do some of the tapes I had been doing with the Sony VHS recorder that packed in, starting with some VHS home videos which have seen better days picture wise, and was very surprised to see how good the machine was at being able to track the jumpy videos that the Sony could not do even when I manually tried to track it, initially with a couple of seconds of blanking out until it managed to track it without any issues. I then opened up OBS Studio and decided this time to capture the video (which was over 2 hrs in length) at a framesize of 320x240. The results were quite reasonable at 3.62GB. When I opened up Nero Video and added the original FLV capture, I was surprised that it fitted onto a 4.7GB disc with plenty of space left, and the file hadn't been trimmed at all. If I had converted the files to either MPEG2 or MP4 the files would likely not have fitted onto a DVD disc because the framesize would've been doubled.

So it appears that the reason that the videos weren't initially fitting onto a DVD was down to the framesize of the video as I had captured them at 720x576. And I know people will say "well 320x240 is not DVD resolution", but VHS isn't DVD.
 

noiseboy72

Distinguished Member
Don't be patronising. I just told you that I was able to burn a DVD with a 2 hr video that I captured from a VHS tape.
As you are using a small frame size, Nero is reverting to a lower quality.

Personally, I would capture at as higher quality as possible and then let Nero recode to get the file to fit.

But I've said this about 6 times on the various threads you have posted on and you are still ignoring the advice, so I'll leave it there. If you are happy with double the amount of degradation, fill your boots.
 

LV426

Administrator
Staff member
A few of things spring to mind:

1: If the original source is VHS then "quality" will start out relatively poor (by today's standards) and can't be improved upon in any meaningful way

2: There are some common misunderstandings about "definition" in analog media (such as tape) usually stemming from trying to equate a digital mindset into an analog world.

Standard VHS always has exactly either 480 (NTSC) or 576 (PAL) horizontal lines, each of which is (or at least, is able to be) different to those adjacent. Thus the vertical definition is 480 or 576. Where things get more interesting is the rate at which VHS can indicate changes along the length of each line (horizontal definition) and that is something like 240. This is an analog statement and doesn't represent "pixels" so it's not absolute. It depends on the abilities of the recording and playback machines, source signal, tape and so on

In reality, I suspect many recorded tapes actually are worse than this. Using Nyquist's theory, in order to digitally sample analog material and get reasonable accuracy you have to sample at at least 2x the highest frequency. Mapping that on to analog VHS video, to get close to the original without degrading it, you'd have to sample at least 480 horizontal points. More doesn't help; less means potential compromise. Vertically, you need exactly 480 or 576 depending on the source format, to avoid losing something.

3: If the intent here is to create compliant DVD-Video discs (as opposed to data discs) then there are restrictions on what pixel structures, frame rates and so on are compliant:

At a display rate of 25 frames per second, interlaced (commonly used in regions with 50 Hz image scanning frequency - PAL and SECAM):
720 × 576 pixels
704 × 576 pixels
352 × 576 pixels (same as the China Video Disc standard)
352 × 288 pixels

At a display rate of 29.97 frames per second, interlaced (commonly used in regions with 60 Hz image scanning frequency - NTSC):
720 × 480 pixels
704 × 480 pixels
352 × 480 pixels (same as the China Video Disc standard).
352 × 240 pixels

Nothing else is DVD-Video compliant and may well not play on a given DVD player.

NOTE: This refers to the finished product - the DVD-Video disc itself - and not to any interim steps (such as, capture). A DVD authoring program will (or should) generate files in one of these formats - and never anything else.

Note particularly the option for 352 horizontal. That equates (again referring to Nyquist) to horizontal analog definition of 176 - which isn't far short of the theoretical maximum horizontal definition of VHS and is probably close to the actual level of analog detail present on the tape. And it uses half as much data (all other things equal) as 704.

4: Digital compression always degrades. By how much depends on many factors, not least the data rate used. More data = less degradation. But IMPORTANTLY taking a compressed (so, degraded) source, and re-encoding it ALWAYS compounds the degradation. A second (or more) re-encode adds degradation on to degradation. Thus encoding is a process best done only once - for best results. If a second encode is unavoidable then this effect can be mitigated to a degree by using a ridiculously HIGH data rate (so - a large file) for the initial capture (so, minimal degradation), and then encoding down to size in the second pass - e.g. in the DVD creation app.

I have successfully used 352 x 480 (or 576) for VHS material with no visible loss of detail. So doing (vs. 704 or 720) makes for less compression degradation at a given data rate (file size). And this is what I therefore recommend. Capturing at a LOWER resolution will lose something which cannot be recovered.
 
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TechiMan

Active Member
I would capture at a higher frame size, but the capture program I've been using (and others) only offer either 320x240, 1920x1080 and 1280x720, the latter sounds a rather odd framesize. I don't know why the option of 320 is even available considering that OBS Studio is used primarily (from what I've read) used for video games capture.

I guess you're right about capturing at a higher resolution to achieve a higher resolution output, which makes sense. To be honest from the capture at 320 I did, and the final authoring to DVD, there is barely any noticeable loss in quality - IMO. From the previous captures I have done of the home videos at a higher res there is a slight improvement in quality with abit more definition, but with the lower 320x240 capture there's more a softness to the image, but nowhere near as bad as I thought, no obvious compression artifacts or large blocking etc.

As an aside, I went into Handbrake and did a conversion of a 1hr 33 min video, which in Nero showed that it was over 5GB. I set the video ritrate to 18 and converted H.264 M4V. After the conversion the outputted file read 373MB. When I opened the file in Nero Video it read about 2.75GB.

Does anyone know if capturing higher than 320 will affect the performance and cause the video capture to stutter?. The reason I ask if the previous capture programs I've been using result in quite noticeable and annoying framerate stutter or something else that that causes the video to stutter. I initially thought it was due to the poor tape causing the capture to do this, but since I've been using OBS which captures very smooth, jitter-free video, so I'm guessing alot of the programs I've been using are provide terrible capturing.
 
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oneman

Well-known Member
Everytime you convert a file you are going to lose quality.

What is your capture device ? And already asked, which CPU and how much RAM do you have ?
 
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LV426

Administrator
Staff member
.....1280x720, the latter sounds a rather odd framesize.
It's not. 1280x720 is a standard "HD" structure.
Does anyone know if capturing higher than 320 will affect the performance and cause the video capture to stutter?
Yes. The more pixels there are, proportionately the more data is needed and the more processing is needed to render them. Bearing in mind, at the point of actual capture, the tape and thereby the incoming signal runs real-time (and you can't change it) and your software has to keep up with the incoming data and process it as it arrives. If it lags behind, it will drop frames. So, if your processor, coupled with the efficiency of whichever capture app you are using, is running at or near its maximum ability on (say) 320x240 then it may well not be able to keep up at 1280x720.

Do you have, or can you obtain, a tabletop DVD recorder (preferably one with an onboard Hard Drive) with analog (Video, Audio L&R, SCART or RCA/Phono etc) inputs? I (still) have two of these and these are typically what I use for analog capture. They always keep up, and they always record in a file format that is DVD compatible. If you can - try going there for your initial capture. You can always pull the contents into a PC for later editing (etc) either via a DVDRW or over your network (depending on the recorder).
 

TechiMan

Active Member
The spec of my laptop is:
RAM: 8GB (6.96 usable)
AMD A8-6410 APU with Radeon R5 graphics 2.00GHz

Suppose that's pretty basic, only about 5 years old.

I only have an EzCap USB device (Climax Digital), again basic but kinda does the job but I don't use the software that came with it as it throws up a copy protected message everytime a tape jumps, which is very annoying as the tapes I've used aren't copy protected. So far with OBS I haven't had any issues with video lag unless it's a direct cause of the tape itself being worn, but I haven't really tested it for a long period using the 720 and above capture resolution. The VHS DVD combi (the DVD part doesn't work) is remarkably good at tracking poor jumpy tapes more than the Sony recorders I was previously using, and there's option for S-Video connection and composite. I had one instance where there was no picture due to the heads being dusty, but rather than put in a VHS head cleaner I just opened the lid and got a piece of paper and dabbed it along the head and spinned the head which cleared up the signal. I've heard the manual cleaning of the heads is the best way to clean the heads rather than using a tape head cleaner.
 

LV426

Administrator
Staff member
I suspect (without any direct experience) that your config may not keep up well at 1280x720. This chart may be helpful as a comparison with some more recent CPUs. It's ranked 717 on this list CPU UserBenchmarks - 1312 Processors Compared But you can only find out by trying it; OBS will report, after capture, on the number and percentage of dropped frames.
 

oneman

Well-known Member
The spec of my laptop is:
RAM: 8GB (6.96 usable)
AMD A8-6410 APU with Radeon R5 graphics 2.00GHz

Suppose that's pretty basic, only about 5 years old.
Any complaints about dropped frames during capture and slow conversion speed it almost certainly down to your CPU. Sorry to put it bluntly but that is a very basic CPU, probably equivalent to a 4th gen i3U.

What hard disk do you have ?
 

strangely tim

Active Member
Shop around on ebay and pick up a used i5 base unit for £100 and spend another £50-£100 on a graphics card and you'll see a big improvement on what your running now
 

TechiMan

Active Member
It may be basic but it does a decent job at capturing. The problem I seem to have with capturing is the programs I'm using. At the moment I'm using OBS Studio (no idea if it's suitable for video capturing from analogue but been told it's OK) and that it seems really good and results in smooth capture (haven't tried a high frame rate). Was capturing alot yesterday without issues, and today I decided to try the S-Video cable I have just to see what difference I have with the the video, so swapped the wires over and just used the composite cables for the audio, but for some reason the picture was scaled up with alot of the bottom and top half of the frame missing, and I hadn't changed any of the settings from yesterday. I then reverted back to the composite scart connection which was fine yesterday, but now I'm getting no picture from the VHS recorder. Anyone know what went wrong and why was a portion of the image missing and scaled up?. I have switched the machine off and unplugged the capture device but it still doesn't display and video (doesn't record the audio only when it's been played back during capture).

Also I've tried using Virtualdub which I'm told is a good program for capturing, but nothing works even when I've selected the capture device and clicked on CaptureAvi. I have used it in the past and has worked on and off, but not now. And also, the Nero I have is supposed to capture video (I assume from an external source such as a camcorder), but again no signal is detected.
 

TechiMan

Active Member
Any complaints about dropped frames during capture and slow conversion speed it almost certainly down to your CPU. Sorry to put it bluntly but that is a very basic CPU, probably equivalent to a 4th gen i3U.

What hard disk do you have ?
I only know the basics that it has 1TB and there's about 425GB free.
Any complaints about dropped frames during capture and slow conversion speed it almost certainly down to your CPU. Sorry to put it bluntly but that is a very basic CPU, probably equivalent to a 4th gen i3U.

What hard disk do you have ?
 

oneman

Well-known Member
I only know the basics that it has 1TB and there's about 425GB free.
So that will be spinning disk, probably 5,400rpm if its a laptop. It should be fast enough for video capture but you will see a general improvement if you moved to flash storage.
 

TechiMan

Active Member
So that will be spinning disk, probably 5,400rpm if its a laptop. It should be fast enough for video capture but you will see a general improvement if you moved to flash storage.
Do you mean like a pendrive? how will that improve performance?.

I'm still trying to figure out why OBS Studio isn't receiving a signal from my VHS recorder when it was last night when I last used it. It looks like for some reason when I tried the S-Video cable it has somehow messed it up, no idea how. I've even rebooted my laptop and even reinstalled OBS but it still isn't receiving anything, and I've tried the various settings but still nothing.

And does anyone know why VirtualDub doesn't seem to work?. Same goes for DScaler which I've been told is a good capture program, but it doesn't seem to recognise my capture device.
 

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oneman

Well-known Member
Flash drive as in SSD or NVMe drive. Probably SSD in your case.

As for the compatibility issues, are you sure those apps are windows 10 compatible.
 

TechiMan

Active Member
Flash drive as in SSD or NVMe drive. Probably SSD in your case.

As for the compatibility issues, are you sure those apps are windows 10 compatible.
My laptop isn't running on Windows 10 it's Windows 8.1 (don't think I ever said it was Windows 10). I have just tried the USB capture device and connected the composite end cables to the outputs on my Hi8 camcorder, connected to my older laptop (running on Vista), opened up the software that came with the device (Arcsoft Showbiz - very basic capture program) and I was able to get a signal, which means it's not a fault with the capture device, but for some strange reason I can't get it working on my Windows 8 laptop though it was working earlier when I hooked up an S-Video cable (which was working at first but the screen size was cropped) and then reverted back to composite-scart but I can't get a signal even using other capture programs like Debut which have worked in the past (albeit not very good at capturing). And OBS Studio is only supported on 64-bit which my Windows 8 laptop is. Can't think what has gone wrong with it. Could be an issue with the USB ports, but I've tried the other two and still nothing.

Another thing I've noticed is that the version of Windows Movie Maker I have (though cannot remember if I downloaded it or that it came with Windows when I bought my laptop) that it appears to be the 32-bit version for some reason, yet it still runs OK on my 64-bit Toshiba laptop.

Update: I've just connected the camcorder up to the Windows 8 laptop and opened up a free program called VSDC, which I had forgotten about that it also captures video, and surprisingly I could get a signal, so must mean the issue is to do with either the VHS recorder or OBS Studio. And VSDC will input from the VHS recorder but an error message pops up upon recording. Talk about problem after problem. Still cannot fathom why OBS Studio isn't receiving a signal, pity really it did a very good job at capturing without any video lagging. Do you know of any other good programs that will work?.
 
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TechiMan

Active Member
I've just heard that Corel Video Studio throws up a "copy protected" message whenever it thinks a tape is copy protected, which is really just result of when the tape jumps due to bad tape or heads, the same thing that happens with the Arcsoft program I have with my capture device which is why I never use it. How the hell is anyone supposed to capture all their home videos (most of which jump due to age and wear and tear - every tape will do it at lease once) when it does this and stops the recording?. These programs are useless, at least the freeware programs don't have this issue, but pity they aren't very reliable in other ways . They need to sort this out, otherwise people who want to use these programs to capture home videos but can't because of this annoying message are gonna be miffed.
 

TechiMan

Active Member
I know this is a long drawn out discussion, but can anyone tell me why a file which is 3.62GB in size (an FLV file) fitted within the space for a 4.7GB disc in Nero Video (320x240 at a length of 2 hr 37), yet a file which is supposed to be only 1.89GB exceeded past 8GB even for a dual layer DVD, albeit at 432x240 (2hr 36 mins)?. How can a video file at only the resolution of 432x240 (captured from a VHS tape) exceed 8GB? yet the other file which is supposed to be 3.62 only took around 2GB of space. And BTW I'm not making this up lol. It can't be down to the bitrate as I never changed the bitrate. How the video file that was over 2hrs in length only took up around 2GB of disc space I do not know.
 

LV426

Administrator
Staff member
As I have tried to describe elsewhere, IF an application (in this case, Nero Video) is re-encoding your material (which it would do if there were any editing; or if you were using it to "build" a DVD) then the original file size and contents are completely irrelevant - so please first try to convince yourself to completely ignore the original capture file size. Whatever that is, your video encoder will (for all it matters) completely uncompress each frame and then re-encode it to whatever you tell the encoder to do. Until you ignore it, it will continue to raise doubts or pose questions to which the answer is irrelevant.

The only thing that matters in this context is the output, not the source.

The eventual amount of data needed to store a video file is determined by a mixture of these factors:

1: Number of pixels. As I have already stated, IF your encoder is trying to make DVD-Video then that will always be one of the arrays I listed here. Original source irrelevant.

2: Compression (encoding) algorithm. Again, if your encoder is tring to make DVD-Video then this is always MPEG2 for video, with a few audio options - Dolby Digital being fairly common. Original source irrelevant.

3: Compression rate (or, "quality") which can be anything in a wide range. Greater compression results in less data with probability of visible artefacts increased. Original source structure and size irrelevant.

4: Duration.

Typical/common optimum setup for that final encode for DVD-Video is about 2 hours play time per layer at 720 x 480/576, although the complexity of the material is a factor. The largest file size (least compression) that will fit your target media should be your aim.

What you need to do (and, as I'm not a Nero Video user, I can't describe how) is to instruct that app what you want it to do. Every other encoder I have encountered allows you to specify either quality, data rate or output size. So tell it to fit your material to a 4.7 GB disc (by whatever means it allows) and it should do so.
 

TechiMan

Active Member
I get your points. But even the files I previously mentioned that exceeded past 4GB wouldn't even fit to 8GB for a dual layer disc at 2hr 33. How is say a 3 hr film able to fit on a dual layer DVD if a 2hr 33 min video wouldn't fit? what kind of birtate are most of the retail DVDs using?.
 

oneman

Well-known Member
I get your points. But even the files I previously mentioned that exceeded past 4GB wouldn't even fit to 8GB for a dual layer disc at 2hr 33. How is say a 3 hr film able to fit on a dual layer DVD if a 2hr 33 min video wouldn't fit? what kind of birtate are most of the retail DVDs using?.
The bitrate is dependant on the length of video. Unlike music CD, DVD do not use fixed bitrate and its pretty easy to work out.

Say your DVD holds 4.5GB and you have 2 hours of video.

4.5GB = 36,846 Mbits
Divide by number of seconds of video = 5,11 Mbits per second.

If you double the length of video then you have halve the bitrate, etc

Commercial DVD that you buy are usually between 3 and 9 MBits / sec

My VHS to DVD recorder can do 8 hours of VHS (long play 4 hour tape) onto a single sided DVD-R with no noticeable loss in quality, that is around 1.28 MBit/sec and I'm sure it would even manage 10 hour (5 hour tape in LP).
 

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