Northern Ireland Rioting

whitesnake11

Well-known Member
CU/SM is not Brexit.
I’m not going to re-run the arguments but you know that many prominent brexiteers indicated that leaving the EU didn’t mean having to leave the SM/CU. We have however and I’m putting my efforts into rejoining.
 
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whitesnake11

Well-known Member
If "And" means yes, then that's why no one that voted out could accept them. EU trap is to link them all together, the CU/SM lure nations into to FOM, ECJ and ever closer union (and Euro if new to club).

If that's what the majority in each nation want and they have a say on it then its all fine.
Many who voted no in 75 never accepted that result and sniped away, remainers are doing the same now🤷‍♂️
 

psikey

Distinguished Member
Many who voted no in 75 never accepted that result and sniped away, remainers are doing the same now🤷‍♂️
As is your right in a proper democratic system. Best of luck in the future. If Brexit goes major flop I will likely back you with "tail between legs". You never know, EU may change with pressure from remaining members and be worth consideration again in the future.
 

whitesnake11

Well-known Member
As is your right in a proper democratic system. Best of luck in the future. If Brexit goes major flop I will likely back you with "tail between legs". You never know, EU may change with pressure from remaining members and be worth consideration again in the future.
Don’t get me wrong, I’ve always said as a committed remainer that if brexit is a rip roaring success and we “prosper mightily” I’ll hold up my hand and acknowledge I was wrong.
 

richp007

Distinguished Member
Not a peep from anyone in the UK Govenment, not even Brandon Lewis (Sec. of State).

That's because they want to pretend it's not happening and hopefully it will just "go away on it's own".

I've been asked to share this a few times before so I'll pop it up again for the new guys. One of the best documentary series I've seen.


Hopefully we never go back, so it's imperative all come together to ensure we don't.
 

psikey

Distinguished Member
Don’t get me wrong, I’ve always said as a committed remainer that if brexit is a rip roaring success and we “prosper mightily” I’ll hold up my hand and acknowledge I was wrong.
None of us are wrong, its a gamble based on the information we absorb and views we have, and no one can predict the future.
 

tapzilla2k

Distinguished Member
Remind me, you can't have CU/SM without also FOM and ECJ ?

The ECJ still applies in NI - StackPath

CU/SM is not Brexit.

Whatever deal Johnson has struck isn't the Brexit promised either. It'll become apparent soon enough why that is.

The reason the violence in NI isn't featuring so much in the UK mainland press is because it highlights the flaws in the deal Johnson has struck. Far from getting Brexit done it's just going to go and on. While risking the peace in Northern Ireland simply because Johnson lied through his teeth and sold NI down the river to get a deal done for the headlines and plaudits. That's all Johnson cares about at the end of the day.
 

RichmondBlue

Active Member
This was practically inevitable. I can’t help but feel some sympathy with the “Loyalists“, they have been betrayed and it must look as if this just brings unification another step closer. Not that I’m particularly against a United Ireland, it probably makes sense. But not by just throwing the Loyalists under a bus.
All those years, all the lost lives. Then the Good Friday agreement brought a fragile peace. And now a bumbling clown brings everything tumbling down.
 

Cliff

Distinguished Member
While risking the peace in Northern Ireland simply because Johnson lied through his teeth and sold NI down the river to get a deal done for the headlines and plaudits. That's all Johnson cares about at the end of the day.
If we can pries out the reason for your statement through the fog of party political haze, you say NI has been sold down the river? Well, can I ask which side you are coming from? From what I can see, there are three options.

1) Unionist sold down the river because they have been cut off from the UK with a trade border in the sea, making them closer to unification.
2) Catholics sold down the river, because Brexit happened, NI is still part of the UK but it is in limbo with a trade border in the sea. Supply shortages in NI supermarkets and still under Westminster rule, and no recourse to Brussels.
3) We went ahead with Brexit, not considering the difficulties with the GF agreement already in place so Brexit should not have happened.

Do you have a solution that is not No.3 ?
 

tapzilla2k

Distinguished Member
If we can pries out the reason for your statement through the fog of party political haze, you say NI has been sold down the river? Well, can I ask which side you are coming from? From what I can see, there are three options.

1) Unionist sold down the river because they have been cut off from the UK with a trade border in the sea, making them closer to unification.
2) Catholics sold down the river, because Brexit happened, NI is still part of the UK but it is in limbo with a trade border in the sea. Supply shortages in NI supermarkets and still under Westminster rule, and no recourse to Brussels.
3) We went ahead with Brexit, not considering the difficulties with the GF agreement already in place so Brexit should not have happened.

Do you have a solution that is not No.3 ?

None of the Leave Campaigns campaigned on leaving the Single Market or Customs Union. In fact they said we'd have continued access to both, easiest deal in history apparently. The only way to avoid difficulties in NI was for the UK to remain in the Single Market and Customs Union, as that would have avoided what's happening now. NI has been sold down a river by Johnson. The promises he made to businesses in NI have been broken.

I'll ask you this question - is Brexit worth destroying the peace in North Ireland ?

That is the only question that matters here. Trying to frame this as party political is utter twoddle. The only thing that matters is the maintaining the peace and avoiding a return to the kind of violence that cost lives across NI, ROI and the UK mainland. President Biden will be watching and I suspect if Boris Johnson continues to do nothing while the violence escalates, Biden will intervene.
 

Goooner

Distinguished Member
So we should abandon Brexit because some people are rioting and or threatening to go back to planting bombs?

Are we to base all future decisions on whether some won’t like it and resort to violence? What happened to not giving in to terrorism?
 

whitesnake11

Well-known Member
So we should abandon Brexit because some people are rioting and or threatening to go back to planting bombs?

Are we to base all future decisions on whether some won’t like it and resort to violence? What happened to not giving in to terrorism?
We shouldn’t give in to terrorism, therefore the loyalist community will have to accept a border down the Irish Sea whether they like it or not. That’s the deal Johnson and Frost agreed on behalf of the UK.
 

RichmondBlue

Active Member
So we should abandon Brexit because some people are rioting and or threatening to go back to planting bombs?

Are we to base all future decisions on whether some won’t like it and resort to violence? What happened to not giving in to terrorism?
No, but you look at all the consequences before making such a momentous decision. The threat to the Good Friday agreement was clear to many observers but the Tories deliberately underplayed the danger. The slogan was “Get Brexit Done” and that’s all that mattered.
 

Goooner

Distinguished Member
So by looking at the consequences, you mean don’t do it because people are threatening violence if you do?
 

richp007

Distinguished Member
So by looking at the consequences, you mean don’t do it because people are threatening violence if you do?

In a sense yes.

If I was faced with doing something that I had to do (enacting referendum result) but I knew the consequences could be dire, I damn well should have spent all the time before the enaction making sure that those consequences aren't played out.

Not spending 4 years (in this instance) doing absolutely nothing other than lying consistently and ignoring all the warnings about said consequences.

I said in the other section earlier that sadly I've not come across a Brexiter yet that has any real knowledge on the GFA and the history of the troubles. Nor one that appreciates the everyday trauma that people still live with from that time. Seeing trouble flaring up again will be frightening for many. Especially the older generation. There's a level of cognitive dissonance from many Brexiters with regards NI and it is sad to be honest. The Irish situation was one of the most important things to get right in all this, and the government have made an absolute shambles of it. As they have everything else, but everything else is for another thread.

Was trying to keep the Brexit talk out of here to be honest as there are other factors at play, but it's practically impossible seeing as it is part of the problem.

NI voted to remain remember and I have no doubt many did because they didn't want any problems after all the peace. Now they've been chucked under a bus and let down badly. NI is still part of the UK, so it still matters even though it's a long way away for many.
 

Goooner

Distinguished Member
I’m certainly aware of the troubles, my dad is from Belfast and I have relatives still living there.

I don’t think you can make or not make, political decisions because one side doesn’t like it and threatens violence, if we go down that road, where does it end? Whoever threatens the worst violence get their way?
 

richp007

Distinguished Member
I’m certainly aware of the troubles, my dad is from Belfast and I have relatives still living there.

I don’t think you can make or not make, political decisions because one side doesn’t like it and threatens violence, if we go down that road, where does it end? Whoever threatens the worst violence get their way?

Apologies mate, you've told me that before and I'd forgotten.

You should then I imagine know how important it was that every effort was made to ensure this couldn't have happened. Anyone who voted for Brexit simply cannot put their hand on their heart and say we've done right by NI. Because we simply haven't, and the government have behaved as irresponsibly as they probably could ever have done.

The links I posted in the other section allude to the problems of the sea border and how they were not considered. Countless warnings not heeded. A disgraceful DUP as well that was more interested in it's bung than the interests of NI.

And for the record none of this is about stopping Brexit because violence was threatened, or for any other reason. It was about ensuring Brexit wasn't a catalyst for violence and trouble again. It's only 4 months in and look where we are.
 

Dony

Distinguished Member
If rumours are to be believed the easing of the lockdown is going to see a major upturn in the numbers coming out onto the streets to protest.
Someone mentioned a figure above of 150 people...don't believe it.

Apart from the rioting, and possibly much more concerning, masked terrorists are now parading through some area's whipping up a frenzy.

 

LX200GPS

Member
Kind of bizare that none of this seems to be on the UK news...but there you go

Sandy Row riot: Leaders appeal for calm after Belfast riot

Riots in Belfast, Newtonabby and Derry. Loyalist leaders using kids to do their dirty work. Sums of complete lack of leadership at the heart of political unionism.
Sinn Feinn/IRA have also used kids in situations like this in the past. Unionists don't have a monopoly on that sort of behaviour.
 

LX200GPS

Member
This was practically inevitable. I can’t help but feel some sympathy with the “Loyalists“, they have been betrayed and it must look as if this just brings unification another step closer. Not that I’m particularly against a United Ireland, it probably makes sense. But not by just throwing the Loyalists under a bus.
All those years, all the lost lives. Then the Good Friday agreement brought a fragile peace. And now a bumbling clown brings everything tumbling down.
Brexit doesn't bring a united Ireland any closer. Loyalists know that and so does anyone else who has an idea about NI politics. If they really thought that do you think it would be left to a bunch of kids to demonstrate?
 

LX200GPS

Member
We were told that a no-deal Brexit would lead to a "hard border" and a return to violence in NI. Although none of the remainers could ever tell us who, exactly, would erect the hard border. Did anyone suggest that the kind of deal Johnson negotiated would also lead to violence? I must have missed that.

According to a few news reports I've seen/heard the demonstrations are mainly about the lack of conviction for the Sinn Feinners for breaking covid rules. And, unhappy with the way Brexit has turned out for Unionists.
 

LX200GPS

Member
No, but you look at all the consequences before making such a momentous decision. The threat to the Good Friday agreement was clear to many observers but the Tories deliberately underplayed the danger. The slogan was “Get Brexit Done” and that’s all that mattered.
But weren't we told that a hard/no deal Brexit would lead to an uptick in violence because the GFI was in danger?Johnson avoided that. Or, are you saying any type of Brexit would lead to violence returning?

I think it was the electorate who made the "monumental decision".
 

Debaser21

Standard Member
We were told that a no-deal Brexit would lead to a "hard border" and a return to violence in NI. Although none of the remainers could ever tell us who, exactly, would erect the hard border. Did anyone suggest that the kind of deal Johnson negotiated would also lead to violence? I must have missed that.

According to a few news reports I've seen/heard the demonstrations are mainly about the lack of conviction for the Sinn Feinners for breaking covid rules. And, unhappy with the way Brexit has turned out for Unionists.
The whole thing about the funeral is absolute nonsense. I wasn't able to attend my Aunts funeral but because I didn't grow up in Loyalist area I don't have a genuine grevience. Seriously that's what I feel like their saying. I know even Sinn Fein voters who were just as angry after the Bobby Story funeral.

As for Brexit, majority of Unionists (well Unionst politicans) voted for Brexit so the blame entirely lies between them and the Tory Government.
 

psikey

Distinguished Member
If rumours are to be believed the easing of the lockdown is going to see a major upturn in the numbers coming out onto the streets to protest.
Someone mentioned a figure above of 150 people...don't believe it.

Apart from the rioting, and possibly much more concerning, masked terrorists are now parading through some area's whipping up a frenzy.

Well if people turn back to criminality/military type actions again they will ultimately face more than the police. Can't be held to ransom by violent men.
 

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