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Noisy pictures, is it a plasma feature?

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by Steve D Green, Feb 7, 2004.

  1. Steve D Green

    Steve D Green
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    Hi,

    I've seen 3 plasmas hooked up with what should be reasonably good sources, and all have exhibited noise in the dark to mid tones (some worse than others). The Plasmas I've seen so far were a JVC, a Philips and today a Hitachi 42PD5000.

    Is this just an inherent feature of plasma screens, or is it something that settles down with use? It does seem rather noticeable compared to a LCD projector for example.

    I also noticed that the both the Philips and Hitachi and problems with scaling (the Philips was abominable, and the Hitachi had faint vertical bars when stretching a 4:3 source). Is scaling usually not that great on the sets themselves?

    Thanks,

    Steve
     
  2. gingerone

    gingerone
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    I have a panasonic plasma and there is no noise whatsoever.
     
  3. jprenaux

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    I agree.

    I bought today a Hitachi 42PD5000.

    After 3 hours of fight to remove the noise. I gave up.
    Straight back for refund.
    For the prices of Plasma screens, I'm expecting the best, and this Hitachi plasma doesn't provide it to me...
     
  4. gandley

    gandley
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    panasonic probaly has the least pic noise off any plasma. pioneers tend to have a bit more noise but deliver a more detailed pic,
    but if your coming from a CRT tv then yes there is more noise, plus it is exagerated by the fact the screen is bigger.
    i had a 503 hde and i couldnt bare to watch sky onit so used the
    smaller panasonic for that.
     
  5. jprenaux

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    Then it's not worthy the money I would pay for these devices (personnal point of view).

    I will keep my old CRT qnd projector until these effects will be rid off !
     
  6. Steve D Green

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    Thanks for the replies,

    it's a shame it seems to be so noticeable on a lot of screens, I was leaning towards the PW6 as I liked the customisation of the inputs, but the Hitachi's extra resolution was nice...

    Cheers,

    Steve
     
  7. jprenaux

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    I decided to to go for the Hitachi because it was (only) 2500£ with nearly all connections I need (2 YUV, DVI, RGB, svideo..)

    Even if the seller told me the tuner wad included, and was not !

    The pana is 1000£ more and totally out of my budget scope.

    Maybe I will got to smaller LCDs, I'm also interested in the Computer compatibility.
     
  8. gandley

    gandley
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    LCD would be even worse, then youll have problems with motion and image ghosting. LCD is still behind plasma tech wise.
    anyfast images look terrible. the image lag can be real off putting

    i still use a big CRT for my computer as lcd is still not good enough to replace it.
     
  9. LV426

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    Depends exactly what you mean by noise. If it is a kind of shimmering, dithering effect then, yes, it is to be expected with all Plasmas.

    But the same thing is not true of LCDs

    Plasma 'cells' (pixels) are totally unable to make a very tiny amount of light. The minimum that they can produce is more than the minimum needed for true 65k colour rendition.

    So they are programmed to dither areas with a very small amount of any given colour. This causes a kind of shimmering effect if watched from too close where tiny amounts of a given colour are involved. From a sensible distance and the effect is the same as undithered, smaller amounts of colour.

    Modern LCDs do not suffer the image lag that early models did. If the plasma dither is an issue (at a sensible viewing distance), don't dismiss LCD until you've made your own mind up.
     
  10. gandley

    gandley
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    sorry but that just isnt true.

    i havent seen 1 LCD monitor that dosent suffer from image or motion lag. as the response times even in the latest computer LCDs(16ms) still is not fast enough.
    I go to several lan partys where they tend to have lcds as there easier to transport and they are rubish. UT2003 is unplayble due to the lag. admit better than 25ms response but still not there yet

    For films this may be less an issue but for gaming, rubish

    Irealy want to replace my monitor as its too bulky but no lcd can get close to it
     
  11. LV426

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    You're entitled to your opinion.

    And I'm entitled to mine. Which is: A good, modern LCD TV is entirely watchable on all types of material; image lag is not an issue.
     
  12. gandley

    gandley
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    but you look old so your eyes must be bad......:laugh:

    Just kidding.

    But i think if you look to any good reviewer of lcd esp for computer screens they still moan about the slow response times.

    (tomshardware for example)


    but i respect your comments, so as usual folks demo first
     
  13. LV426

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    Old???? OK. clearly I need to do some photo editing on my Avatar. Hair colour, a bit of soft focus.

    As for my eyes - my trouble is they are actually too good which means that I have trouble tolerating anything with a visible refresh flicker - slow CRTs, Panasonic Plasmas, and any single chip DLP. Hence my liking for LCD.

    Back to LCDs........the crux of the matter is, I think, as you put it "esp for PC screens". LCDs aimed for the TV market are, I think, a substantial improvement over those aimed at PC users. And it isn't hugely surprising. We are prepared to pay vast amounts for a TV, and peanuts for a PC monitor.

    Anyone focusing their attention on PC monitors and extrapolating that into the consumer TV marketplace is, I think, making a mistake. Things have undoubtedly improved hugely in most areas of LCD weakness, update time, black level etc. I'm not claiming that they don't have further to go - just that I think they are getting to the point where they are, actually, pretty good.
     
  14. Zoidy

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    i used to play unreal,quake,ut2k3. and i can garantee no lcd can keep up. with movies on the other hand i wouldnt see much problem for a nice LCD to play with no lag. no movie is fast enough to match a first person shooter game. well not at the speeds i used to play it at anyways
     
  15. Jules Tohpipi

    Jules Tohpipi
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    I've just bought a Pioneer 434 and have no problems with noise or scaling. Not now that is....

    I'm Mr Picky (pun intended) purchased a plasma with a mind to accepting some compromises. Three hours into Pioneer plasma ownership and I also was ready to pack it back up and send it back.

    However, there are three things worth noting when auditioning plasmas (particularly Pioneers)

    1. Switch off every digital enhancement setting. In my opinion, all of the common groans about plasma are due to the crude 'enhancement' options. Hence why Philips CRTs look so bad (flame away).

    2. Use the highest quality cables you can find - otherwise, on a screen this size, you're going to get ample opportunity to see the nosie they introduce. Same goes for the DVD player - these things are open windows, not make-over specialists.

    3. The picture on my Pioneer is still noticeably improving - it still has less than 100 hours on it.

    Right here, right now, I'm a very happy man, and I don't please easily. My similarly picky friends - who did their utmost to stop me buying a plasma - are STUNNED by the picture I'm now getting off SKY. So am I.

    The sad fact is that these devices are like Linn Sondek's and Quad ESLs of old - they need work otherwise they're just going to reveal sloppy house keeping further up the chain. Hence why composite pictures are never going to look any good, etc...

    So....

    Turn-off the digital stuff, turn down the sharpness (a misnomer if ever there was one), use good cable, and make sure you're not auditioning a brand new set.

    Contrast levels aside - you can get the equal of a good CRT, it just needs some work. As I say, I'm a happy man now.


    Jules
     
  16. bongpig

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    Nigel's got it spot on.

    I also hate LCD 'monitors', due to the slow response, but the same simply cannot be said for LCD 'televisions'.
    I would bet that most quality LCD tv's ( not PC monitors ) have a better response time than 16ms. In fact, the last time I took a look at the newer 30"+ LCD's I couldnt see any tearing at all.

    Hell, im about to take delivery of an LCD rptv, which I already demoed for hours using my Xbox before deciding. I couldnt see any tearing. none.
     
  17. gandley

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    firstly response time does not effect tearing, thats usaly a refresh or bad driver issue.

    secondly 16ms is the best it gets for lcd. samsung who probaly do the best lcds and are cosiderd to be a leader in this field for both computer and tv screens (as they are a majour oem as well) and who do the biggest LCD tvs have only recently manage 16ms.
    (for consumer lcd tvs...16ms monitors have been around for a little while)Many ccompanies still manage only 25ms....

    +its the computer monitors that are driving the lcd progress. how many computer monitors get sold versus lcd tvs.

    also LCD still has colour accuracy issues. why else do graphics artist still use crt.

    But if your happy then good for you.

    so i hold you to your bet.....now show me the evidence. ive already checked but if you know somthing i dont please share,
    because as said id love to ditch my monitor for a slimline model
     
  18. manc

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    I have a "17 Hitachi panel which at the time had the lowest response time avaliable, 16ms. I would not go back to a crt now but as far as quake 3 is concerned i cannot play it on my screen anymore due to blur.

    When i bought my Hitachi pma400e plasma i had a good look at lcd and I personaly felt something wasnt quite right. Something mentioned in another thread hit the nail on the head for me - everything seemed to look like a cheap american sitcom. On the upside colours are vibrant, picture sharpnes was top notch and blacks were black :)

    You pays your money, as they say.

    As far as the topic is concerned my plasma displays noticable artifacts when your are under a meter away from the screen (especially in black areas). It doesnt worry me too much because you would never sit that close anyway and from any real viewing position it is perfect.

    I am happy with my purchase for the price I paid, at the time lcd seemed much more expencive.
     
  19. ddlooping

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    Hi all. :)

    I'm using the following LCD with my computer:
    http://www.eizo.com/support/discontinued/lcd/l565.asp
    When I bought it it was supposed to be the best in term of color reproduction.

    I have never noticed any lag when watching DVDs (which is fairly rare anyway; only to check my backups quality).
    But I must admit I have never played any fast game on it. ;)
     
  20. richard plumb

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    Can I agree with Nigel *and* Gandley, and suggest they are arguing separate points? :)

    Modern LCD TVs are IMO very good now, contrast not withstanding. Refresh rates are not an issue, and noise levels are certainly not. Plasmas are different, and should be reviewed as such.

    As for gaming, I also think they are fine for console gaming. But if you are a 'l33t' LAN gamer playing Quake3 at 120Hz for ultimate mouse response, then yes you will probably get tearing/lag.

    But thats not what most people will use an LCD TV for.
     
  21. gandley

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    fair point, hence why i said earlier that for films its not such a problem. of more concern for LCD tvs is if they are true widescreen or not. But i will say if i see a football match on LCD you still see lag and motion artifacts.. admit i might be a picky sod
    the best lcd ive seen is a sharpe lc-37HV4E nice pic, not as good as some plasmas thou but it still sufferd from motion problems.

    also your right id never take an lcd tv to a lan meet. nor would i play ut2003 on a plasma as that couldnt cope either.

    i was merely using this to ilistrate the flaws in the tech.

    LCD will benefit when they nail there respone times to 10 or 12ms
    and can hit a contrast ratio of at least 1300:1 (most for a tv at mo is 800:1 no?) to match lcd projectors(which still suffer from poor blacks).

    At mo plasma is the better choice. (thats if you want a big screen)
    LCD is better for a second screen choice for in the dinning room or kitchen.
     
  22. LV426

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    Thank you. "A good, modern LCD TV is entirely watchable on all types of material; image lag is not an issue." is exactly what I said.
     
  23. gandley

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    but it is.:thumbsdow

    lets just beg to differ.

    LCD is very poor to my eyes,
     
  24. sponshagga

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    I was put off by the noise and blockyness of the plasmas. I watch a lot of football and couldn't stand this effect when the camera panned fast across a green pitch. got lcd now and am much happier. i just can't see this image lag that some talk about but if I could , I'd rather that than the noise and blockyness I saw with plasmas.
     

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