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No Sound on DV79-AVR300 with MPEG.

Discussion in 'Arcam Owners' Forum' started by JetJockey, Nov 25, 2004.

  1. JetJockey

    JetJockey
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    Attempted to play a "backed up" DVD on the DV79 last night but could get no sound initially. Finally twigged that the sound track might be MPEG so quickly loaded a retail copy of "Lord of The Dance" (definately MPEG Audio) into the DV79 and again was greeted with no sound! :confused:

    At this point I should mention that the only audio connection between my DV79 and AVR300 was the Co Axial digital interconnect.

    I quickly connected an analogue lead and "bingo" full blown audio from the speakers. I then removed the lead leaving the Co Axial interconnect in place, no audio again.

    I then entered the DV79 setup menu and set audio out to "PCM 2CH". Instant 2 channel sound was the reward :) . However................... All other DVD's with DD 5.1 soundtracks only produce stereo sound, Dohh!! :mad:

    Set audio (in DV79 setup menu) back to "Bitstream 2 or 6 Channel audio" and all normal DVD's now produce full 5.1 channel sound :) . However............. Lord of the dance with MPEG audio now produces no audio, Double Dohh!! :mad: :mad:

    Now I know I must be doing something wrong, :blush: because my Tag DVD32R never used to have this problem. It used to simply pass the signal down the Digital interconnect to the AV32R where it was decoded, without any fiddling with menus etc. :suicide:

    So............. what have I not set up correctly in the AVR300 menus (or DV79) that is causing this problem?? :oops:

    Thanks, Gerald.
     
  2. JetJockey

    JetJockey
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    Bump

    Any Ideas?

    Just curious as I have got quite a bit of further info which leaves Arcam looking a bit weak.

    Thanks, Gerald
     
  3. Rob100

    Rob100
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    I too have this "problem" with my DV88+. The simple solution was to use analogue interconnects to another input (CD rather than DVD on my receiver) and select this input when playng VCD's, SCVD's or DVD's with MPEG audio. If I connect to the same input, the digital connection still take priority on my receiver and you can't change from the remote, hence why I use two inputs.

    The audio options on the Arcam players and a little basic. On Pioneer players (for example) there is an option to specificaly choose if MPEG audio is output as MPEG audio or output as PCM via the optical/coax connection.

    Some AV receivers can decode the MPEG audio I beleive. I'm assuming the AVR300 can???

    Rob.
     
  4. JetJockey

    JetJockey
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    Hi Rob.

    Good question, Arcam, they say no!

    It gets a lot more interesting though. I reported the problem and was told that the DV79 can not translate the Mpeg audio signal to a digital bitstream that the AVR300 will "understand", hence no sound.

    Needless to say, the thought of having to enter the DV79 setup menu and alter audio out to "PCM 2 Ch" (as proposed by Arcam) every time I want to play an Mpeg audio DVD does not appeal to me. Neither does having to run an expensive set of analogue interconnects. In this day and age (copyright issues aside) one lead "should" be enough.

    Anyway.............. I informed Arcam that my old Tag DVD32R used to play these discs no probs and they said "yes, but that was a £4K player", "you will be extremely hard pushed to find a DVD player anywhere that will do that now", " the Tag was one of a kind".

    Well.................... being pretty dissatisfied with this and having a boxed Denon 3910 on Demo, I unboxed it and connected it to the AVR300 via the "normal" coaxial digital interconnect. I popped the offending Mpeg audio DVD disc in (full retail copy) and pressed play........... Yup, thought as much, perfect stereo with the AVR300 reporting DDigital bitstream. I then tried another "backed up" Mpeg title and hey presto, perfect audio again. Full of enthusiasm, I next popped into the Denon two more "backed up" DVD's loaned to me by a friend. These have Dolby Digital 5.1 soundtracks but the DV79 would not "see" one disc, and locked up on the other. Yet again, the Denon played the discs without a hitch. :thumbsup:

    Conclusion:- Don't know but I am beginning to wonder if the Denon 3910 deserves some of the bad press it gets? :confused:

    Gerald.
     
  5. Rob100

    Rob100
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    Well that is interesting that the AVR300 won't decode the MPEG audio.

    I don't thing the price of your old Tag player has anything to do with it. The "Dansai" DVD player I bought from Tesco's decodes the MPEG to PCM. The DV88+ is the ONLY player I've owned that doesn't do this. I've owned a couple of Pioneers, a Toshiba, the Dansai and a Yamada (yes I know the last two are cheap and nasty, but they do the job they were bought for) and they all do this. I do think Arcam is the problem here.

    Rob.
     
  6. JetJockey

    JetJockey
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    Hi Rob.

    Yes, I would have to agree that the DV79 is the problem.

    The annoying part, is that the techie I spoke to on the phone (at Arcam), did his best to convince me that next to no other manufacturers machine would do this either!! Naughty! :nono:

    Thankfully, I have a gift for telling when I am being fed disinformation. I always double check things myself. Unfortunately, this irritates dealers and manufacturers immensley and one gets labeled as a troublemaker.

    Anyway............... Looks like the Arcam is out, and the Denon is in. It's not only the Mpeg issue, it's the fact that the Denon has a far better remote than the Arcam and played two discs that the Arcam would not touch! :rolleyes:

    Come to think of it, the Denon is also substantially cheaper with more features. :D

    Gerald.
     
  7. ihan

    ihan
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    Hi Gerald,

    I know what you're saying, but the Denon can macroblock severely via component output, and has worse optical compatibility with +/-R discs. I played a Datawrite 'Red' -R (possibly the worst -Rs ever produced), and the picture was breaking up on the Denon; no such problems with the DV79.

    I know the DV79 isn't perfect, but in my opinion, it is a better player. It is highly likely that the 'backup' discs that it won't play are badly authored; I've had no problems in this respect. You can't blame the player if the disc is badly authored by someone who can't produce a backup properly.

    Regarding MPEG audio, I've never owned a movie DVD which had mpeg audio. My point is, they aren't very frequent, so I would just go into the DV79, and change the audio setup. Surely, this is better than having to watch the Denon macroblocking?

    Regards,
    Ian
     
  8. Rob100

    Rob100
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    Gerald,

    I would have to agree with Ian in some respects.

    MPEG audio is not a valid part of the NTSC DVD spec, so it should only be an issue on PAL discs. I don't think I've ever purchased a DVD with an MPEG audio track. The only PAL DVD's I have with MPEG audio track are some discs I created myself (home camcorder movies) when I first got a DVD writer (just over a couple of yearsusing some "early" DVD authroing software. I've moved on, as has the authoring software and I now always produce a DD sountrack. The only other discs I have with MPEG audio are VCD's and SVCD's which I do have a lot of, but TBH I'd rather watch them on a smaller screen (in another room using another player) as even the best SVCD's do look poor on my 42" plasma.

    Arcam do seem ignore a number of problems and blame them on "others" though. There have been numerous threads in the past ref poor de-interlacing, but Arcam never seem to respond to these posts (or give a satisfactory answer). When I spoke with them about it they blame it on the source (the disc), but how come a £120 Pioneer player (DV-575) has no problems with the same disc?

    This is not moan at Arcam day, but I've noticed how Arcam selectively respond only to certain posts in these forums. Normally the one's that make them look good. I know this isn't an official Arcam support forum, but it is very annoying and makes you (well me) think they are trying to ignore certain issues.

    I've never played with a Denon DVD player so can't comment on these.

    Rob.
     
  9. John Dawson

    John Dawson
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    Hmmm - some misunderstandings here I think, possibly including a member of our support team :)

    The DV79 can decode stereo MPEG audio and outputs it as 2 channel analogue. One of my SW colleagues tells me it can output the MPEG audio stream too if you wish.

    The AVR300 does not support decoding MPEG audio as we saw little demand for this feature. Indeed this is the first complaint I can recall, though I am as always willing to be corrected.

    So, just how many MPEG encoded DVDs are there out there? I know of 12 Monkeys (R2) and I guess Lord of the Dance (which region?), though I assume that also has PCM on it.

    John Dawson (Arcam)
     
  10. JetJockey

    JetJockey
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    Hi Rob and John.

    Yes you are quite correct, there are very few DVD's about with MPEG audio. Still annoying to have to go into setup menus though to change things. Also annoying John is the fact that if the Denon 3910 can (and will) transcode for £800, why doesn't the DV79 for £1000???

    Re the badly authored discs........... yes they were. We realised this almost immediately. The guy who backed them up ended up writing them as one complete chapter. With respects though gents, these discs are out there and if the Denon can play them without a hitch, why can't the Arcam. It gives little comfort when the Arcam locks up when you have settled down for a nights viewing, and you know the Denon plays the same discs no probs!!? Fair comment surely?

    Regarding the Denon macroblocking, could somebody give me a few disc titles as an example, possibly big titles like Gladiator or Monsters inc etc, in other words something that I might have and can try. All the titles I have put through the machine so far have been faultless.

    Thanks, Gerald.
     
  11. ihan

    ihan
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    Hi Gerald,

    Re macroblocking. Gladiator, Region 2, Chapter 1, 1 min 35s to 1 min 37s.
    With the Denon, in the pure black frame, you can see greyer squares wandering through it. I was using component output. The DV79 & pio 868 had no such problems. You may need a dark room to see it though!

    Regards,
    Ian
     
  12. John Dawson

    John Dawson
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    If you want to play your MPEG discs without changing DVD player menus, why not connect a pair of phono cables between the DVD player's analogue outputs and say the DVD input of the AVR300? Then you just have to force this input to analogue by holding its button down for a couple of seconds when you want to play the MPEG audio encoded disc.

    HTH.

    John Dawson (Arcam)
     
  13. Rob100

    Rob100
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    John,

    This may help AVR300 owners, but it doesn't help the rest of us much.

    Even for AVR300 owners it's not exactly a wife/spouse friendly solution.

    Would be so much easier if Arcam DVD players did what most (if not all) others do and decode the MPEG to PCM and allow playback via the digital connection. I'm assuming it's not possible to add this in an update software revision?

    Rob.
     
  14. JetJockey

    JetJockey
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    Hello all.

    First of all I would have to agree with Rob's last post. In this day and age I am expecting the majority (if not all) audio to travel down one lead. The last thing I want to do is start throwing money away on expensive analogue interconnects.

    Ihan

    Thanks for the info on Gladiator. Just played the part in question about five or six times. This is where the picture fades to total black for two seconds. There was absolutely no sign of macroblocking! The picture was as clean as a whistle. Very strange. I wonder if it's down to a combination of certain kit??

    Gerald. :confused:
     
  15. ihan

    ihan
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    Hi Gerald,

    I think people reported in the dvd players section, that you could only see it on certain displays. I saw it on my old Panasonic TH42PW6 plasma. Unfortunately, I no longer have the 3910 or the PW6, so I am unable to repeat the exercise. I should add that the 3910 I loaned was one of the first batch to be delivered to my dealer. Perhaps Denon have improved them since.

    Regards,
    Ian
     
  16. JetJockey

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    Hi Ihan

    Purely as an aside.

    I returned my Arcam DV79 and AVR300 to the dealers yesterday, have decided to keep the Denon 3910 and 3805.

    On arrival at the shop, I was greeted with the vision of another customer returning his DV79 and AVR300 with similar problems to those that I experienced. His DV79 was locking up on certain discs (that would play in his girlfriends £29 Tesco player) :oops: and his AVR300 was having microprocessor fits every now and again.

    It would appear that Arcam have as many problems as Denon in percentage terms! :rolleyes:

    Gerald.
     
  17. glimball

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    AVR300 & DV79 + Infocus 7205 quietly waiting in their boxes for arrival of their Monitor Audio Gold20 friends by air. What am I going to find when I hook you all up? Returning to dealer is not really an option - they're in a different country.

    aaaaaaahhh


    :eek: :eek:
     
  18. johndon

    johndon
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    I've just got a DV79 and AVR300 and they are both working perfectly :thumbsup:

    John
     
  19. JetJockey

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    Hi Glimball.

    You will be fine, don't worry. As I stated earlier (possibly in another thread) all manufacturers get their problems. Ultimately it is down to chance as to whether one gets a duffer or not. I don't think Arcam are any worse, or better, than any other manufacturer in this regard.

    On a more sombre note. Many years ago (in my earlier flying days) our company aircraft used to carry passengers by day, and cargo by night (seats stripped out). It is quite a lucrative business but the whole thing is run to a strict schedule, and I mean departure to within seconds. The cargo had to be loaded and unloaded at a rate of knots. I would not be exagerating if I told you that boxes are literally thrown up into the aircraft and I have even seen them being kicked along the floor. labels with "Fragile" on them were a complete waste of time. This was all supervised by the Royal Mail (they did the loading and unloading) and it made me promise never again to order anything delicate, late in the afternoon, on next day delivery!!! :rolleyes:

    Cheers, Gerald.
     

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