NEWS: Wolf Cinema to show 8K projector TXF-3500 at ISE 2019

[Andy Bassett]

Wolf Cinema to show 8K projector TXF-3500 at ISE 2019 in a reference home theatre setup.
Read the news.

 

[Peter Parker]

If it's based on JVCs DiLA tech, then it's just a recased/rebadged N9000 isn't it? If so, then it can't take in an 8k source and can only eshift 4K material - even JVCs own demos can't do 8K so it's unlikely this will be able to either. Whether this is going to be any better than what JVC is delivering right now will have to be seen, but I think, going from past recased/rebadged Wolf JVCs, they don't actually change anything at all - it's still the same JVC tech underneath but with a different case and a Wolf badge with some marketing to promote it. If this is much more expensive then the N9000, then people may be better off buying a 4500/Z1 which still seems to produce a better image overall, based on the few people who have compared them directly. Seems the laser and laser dimming make a bigger difference than the improved 4K panels and contrast of the new 4K range.

JVC are literally only just starting to deliver their new N range to consumers, so I'm surprised to see this being promoted already if it is just a rebadged JVC.

 

[Luminated67]

I think it states in the link it only accepts up to 4K source material.

 

[jocedeg]

If it's based on JVCs DiLA tech...

That is the first of many "ifs"...

"If" you had read the article, you would have seen this:

The demo setup will also involve Wolf Cinema’s custom video processor, the ProScaler MK6.

That pretty much says that they are working on custom hardware. not just "rebadging" JVC equipment.

And since there are no 8K sources available, you should accept the fact that, so far, 8K displays and projectors are only going to upscale content.

 

[Peter Parker]

That is the first of many "ifs"...

"If" you had read the article, you would have seen this:

The demo setup will also involve Wolf Cinema’s custom video processor, the ProScaler MK6.

That pretty much says that they are working on custom hardware. not just "rebadging" JVC equipment.

Yes I read the article. Their ProScalers are external add on scalers, not unlike Lumagens in that respect, so it still looks like a rebadged JVC with external scaler. This is their Mk5 scaler for example:

ProScaler MK V - wolfcinema.com

Unless you know different?

And since there are no 8K sources available, you should accept the fact that, so far, 8K displays and projectors are only going to upscale content.

That's pretty obvious isn't it.

Japan has 8k tvs and broadcast source material, for what it's worth, and if the performance of the JVCs own 4k upscaling is anything like their very first 1080 eshift model which just softened the image (some say it 'adds' apparent detail using interpolation, some can't see a difference), then it's just a marketing tool (be the first etc). Maybe the ProScaler Mk6 will be able to do something about that but we'll have to see - if the JVC is what processes the two incoming signals and determines what the final image looks like, then it could be that the ProScaler Mk6 is just an expensive add on with no additional benefit, but that's just a guess - it's early days yet, but it would be good if it could make a visible improvement. If it can't, it's just an expensive box. So far there are mixed reviews as to whether or not the 8k eshift is worth having, with some saying leave it turned off because just like JVCs current eshift, it just adds more noise to the image.

I don't know you and you don't know me, yet here you are attacking me in an aggressive way. Nice first message, you'll go far.

Handbags at 12 o'clock?

 

[jocedeg]

So far there are mixed reviews as to whether or not the 8k eshift is worth having, with some saying leave it turned off because just like JVCs current eshift, it just adds more noise to the image.

I agree with this.

Since 4K content is 90% 2K upscaled to 4K, we don't need to re-upscale this to 8K.

As far as Japanese 8K content is concerned... do we need more travelogue footage in ultra-high definition ?

 

[jocedeg]

I don't know you and you don't know me, yet here you are attacking me in an aggressive way. Nice first message, you'll go far.

I just reacted to your dismissive comments, mostly based on speculation.

Why don't we wait and see ?

Wolf have always released high quality products, even if they are always far from being "priced within the reach of many video enthusiasts".

 

[Peter Parker]

I don't know what all of the 8K

So far there are mixed reviews as to whether or not the 8k eshift is worth having, with some saying leave it turned off because just like JVCs current eshift, it just adds more noise to the image.

I agree with this.

Since 4K content is 90% 2K upscaled to 4K, we don't need to re-upscale this to 8K.

As far as Japanese 8K content is concerned... do we need more travelogue footage in ultra-high definition ?

I tend to agree with you. Resolution is usually pretty low on the list of what most people want with respect to image quality. In post production, 2k can be made to look sharper/more detailed than 4k, but I guess with smoother transitions in diagonal lines and circles for example, there are some pros for upscaling.

I don't know what all of NHKs transmissions consist of, but 8k does seem way more resolution than we need given normal seating distances (recommendations seem to be 1.5 x the image height for 4k so how much closer for 8k?). Wide Colour Gamut, on/off contrast and even HDR are far more visible from the seats no matter how far back you sit, so that is where I think the money/development should go, but if our eye can perceive a difference with 8k even if it's not strictly within our visual range to determine actual image elements, then maybe it's something for the future. In the most part though, it just seems like marketing to me.

 

[Peter Parker]

I don't know you and you don't know me, yet here you are attacking me in an aggressive way. Nice first message, you'll go far.

I just reacted to your dismissive comments, mostly based on speculation.

Why don't we wait and see ?

Wolf have always released high quality products, even if they are always far from being "priced within the reach of many video enthusiasts".

Well, I can remember a previous rebadged JVC being promoted as having improvements over the JVC product it was based on, and was priced accordingly, only to discover that it was nothing more than a simple rebadging, recasing and price hike. So to me that's just ripping off people with more money than knowledge who rely on dealers and manufacturers to be honest with them before taking their money. I think we even had one of the companies marketing guys here or on avsforum giving lots of speal and he was ripped to pieces when the product was measured and tested and found to be no different to the base JVC it was based on. It may have been a Pioneer guy but I can't remember. I might see if I can dig it out.

DLPs have been rebadged in the past as well - Sam Runco with DLP for example.

Although I agree that in most cases we should wait and see, going on previous events I guess I'm overly sceptical and want other people to be aware. If someone reads this and then does some research before buying, it may prevent someone from making a costly mistake if it is nothing more than a rebadge in Wolfs clothing (see what i did there? ). If it really is an improvement and worth the cost, at least they know that for sure and are making an informed decision with their money.

Assuming that those people bother to read forums of course

 

[jfinnie]

I asked similar questions in the AVS thread about this and got no useful info.

Previous Wolf scalers have been heavily Lumagen based, and the projectors seem to have a couple of sources depending on whether they're DLP or D-ILA. It's possible that there is no significant tech difference, but there is a tangible benefit to the end user because they get a tailored proven setup between the two bits of gear. It would be feasible that Wolf are a bit more selective about the bits they put into their Wunderprojektor than JVC are, which might lead to an image more consistently in the higher echelons of performance, which ultimately might be worth paying.

It is also feasible you just end up with a bit nicer looking piece of metal on your ceiling, instead of plastic, and a smug feeling that few other folk have that.

As the links between the product families are quite clear it is a shame I think that there isn't a public stance on it, though I guess the folk who would read it aren't the folk who would buy it, so Wolf's attitude is probably "don't care what you think, you're not my customer...".

 

[Peter Parker]

Is their ProScaler just a rebadged Lumagen or is it something they produce or get Lumagen to produce for them, so is going to be very similar if not entirely the same?

I haven't tried to find the earlier instance of the rebadged JVC and haven't yet looked over on avs at what's being said there yet, but it would be interesting to see what it measures and performs like compared to the normal N9000, if anyone should get one and do that, like was done with the earlier rebadged JVC I mentioned. I wouldn't be surprised if all that happens is Wolf get a load of normal JVCs delivered, check they are all good and then just change the case and tweak the firmware to remove JVC links and add Wolf logos etc.

 

[jfinnie]

Previous ones have looked very much like whatever Lumagen was current. I've not seen any pics or details of the most recent one, so who knows. If it is a more-or-less Lumagen it is unlikely to be that different as there aren't that many ways that make sense to do stuff and they're not going to do stuff differently "just because".

Wolf do this, there are also a couple of other outfits; Cine Versum is one, Dream Vision is another. Cine Versum at least claim some unique features such as passive glasses 3D.
Edit: Actually Cine Versum and Dream Vision seem to share a postal address, so I guess are pretty closely related!

 

[Peter Parker]

So saying it's just a rebadged JVC with a rebadged lumagen is probably not far off the mark then, but perhaps with better quality control with respect to the JVC which at the moment seem to have some new chassis early release bug issues.

 

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

The Wolf processors are Lumagen Radiance Pro's. There are the same hardware as a Lumagen one, no difference at all. I have set up a few Wolf units in UK with and without their associated video processors. I do not know if they do anything to them other than rehouse them in larger better cooled cases. They did look good though once set up.

 

[Peter Parker]

Thanks Gordon, good to know. Are they quieter with the new cases?

 

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

The ones i've worked on have all been in projection rooms or enclosed away from the main viewing area so cannot say. I'd expect they will be though.

 

[mbmapit]

going from past recased/rebadged Wolf JVCs, they don't actually change anything at all

DLPs have been rebadged in the past as well - Sam Runco with DLP for example.

Runco didn't simply rebadge products, they used better optics on all their units and as far as I know this is the exact same thing Wolf do. Runco in some cases also did internal hardware changes and software changes but I don't know about Wolf.

 

[Peter Parker]

Runco didn't simply rebadge products, they used better optics on all their units and as far as I know this is the exact same thing Wolf do. Runco in some cases also did internal hardware changes and software changes but I don't know about Wolf.

I never did find out for certain if there were any real mechanical changes with Runco's, and a new lens would be mega expensive for such a tiny run of projectors - it's often a significant portion of the cost of the projector anyway, so when you hear things like that it makes you wonder how true it might be. Look at how much an ISCO or Schneider costs for example, and that's a lens that can fit multiple projectors not just one. I guess we'll never know for sure unless someone strips down the original Benq and compares the lens with the Runco equivalent.

 

[mbmapit]

I never did find out for certain if there were any real mechanical changes with Runco's, and a new lens would be mega expensive for such a tiny run of projectors - it's often a significant portion of the cost of the projector anyway, so when you hear things like that it makes you wonder how true it might be. Look at how much an ISCO or Schneider costs for example, and that's a lens that can fit multiple projectors not just one. I guess we'll never know for sure unless someone strips down the original Benq and compares the lens with the Runco equivalent.

They did use better lenses, that was the main reason for the cost of the Runco units.

 

[jfinnie]

I've never heard any "own lens" claims being made for the Wolf stuff. I would be a little surprised because these are not simple lenses in these JVC units.