News Story and Discussion: Samsung, Panasonic and 20th Century Fox announce HDR10+ Paternership

Discussion in 'LCD & LED LCD TVs Forum' started by Steve Withers, Aug 29, 2017.


    1. Steve Withers

      Steve Withers
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    2. t-force

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      ***. Do these companies not realise how much these issues just serve to confuse consumers and put them off? I was hoping that Panasonic would add DV to their OLEDs next year, and go for one of them, but now I'm back to square one.
       
    3. gadget man

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      Glad i did not upgrade to a 4k TV, will wait a few more years. You can guarantee will not be a firmware update.
       
    4. dhts

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      ..but these companies need you to buy and upgrade TV's so they are always going to be scratching their heads to think of the next thing they can add, whether it's good for consumers or not. If you wait for this to end before you buy your next tv you'll have a long wait.
       
    5. BAMozzy

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      HDR10+ is already added to the QLEDs and I believe will be, if it hasn't already, added to their 2016 HDR TV's too. It has the advntage of being open source, like HDR10 and, if anything, an extension to this. The difference it seems, between this and DV will be just the 12bit - when we actually get 12bit panels though is a different matter.

      Maybe other studios will offer it too - they are committed to HDR10 and signed up to the UHD Alliance, Maybe when they master content for DV, they can convert the metadata to HDR10+ and those TV's that are only HDR10 may just get the initial metadata as the 'static' version of the HDR10+. It depends on whether HDR10+ can be 'backwards compatible' to HDR10. I am sure that Studios just master the films at the 'highest' required standard - which would be DV because of the bit depth and its mastered to 4000nits too. HDR10 can be mastered to either 1000 or 4000nits. It would of course depend on whether the metadata can be used for both DV and HDR10+ but if it can - fantastic.

      Dynamic HDR has been mentioned for a while now - its nothing 'new'. There was talk though that it required a larger bandwidth than DV and therefore would require HDMI 2.1 - its listed as part of the 2.1 feature set.
       
    6. Roohster

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      Here we go again... another format war where the loser is the customer (as usual).

      Unless ALL these new technologies are made available to ALL manufacturers, this can only be bad news.

      I've wanted an Oled for ages, but can't afford to change it every couple of years.
      Whatever I buy next will have to last me quite a long time... and all this is just baffling and frustrating.
       
    7. max222

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      My 4K HDR already looks great - I can't believe I'd see much if any difference - so ultimately it doesn't matter - i think you can quite happily buy any tv on the market now
       
    8. mikelj

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      DV defines the whole eco-system from studio mastering through to what is displayed on your (mapped the TV's capabilities). Dolby also designed a way to tunnel DV through HDMI 1.4m (so the consumer wouldn't necessarily have to upgrade everything). For these reasons, I believe DV would have been the nest for the consumer; not the best for companies that have to pay for DV licences, which is probably the reason behind HDR+.
       
    9. Spike_UK

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      I'd say this is a move to stop dolby vision before it gets too popular.
      Has anyone actually done a meaningful comparison yet of static vs dynamic?
      Better write up that article double time withers!
       
    10. Fella55

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      I read this article with a growing sense of foreboding. The display landscape is complicated enough without having to learn about the differences between 4 (or more?) different types of HDR now. How on earth is the average consumer going to make head or tail of all this. I'm an enthusiast and I'm already weary.. I'm still recovering from the whole passive vs active 3D technologies and look where that ended up...

      Wake me up when this has all blown over.
       
    11. BAMozzy

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      How it works, and even whether its ultimately the 'best' can be immaterial - just look at Betamax (if you are old enough. I am not denying that the metadata 'helps' but if a TV has great HDR10 tone mapping, the difference can be minimal with a 'few' scenes maybe looking a bit better. Its not as if DV is able to hit a 'higher peak brightness or make the blacks darker. Its not enhancing the Colour range and no TV yet can offer 12bit colour depth. Those TV's that struggle - particularly with HDR10 content mastered at 4000nits benefit the most from DV. Which unsurprisingly then, maybe why LG and Sony have opted jump on-board with DV.

      I can of course understand why LG, with OLEDs opting to go with DV initially as the OLED panels don't have much 'range' for the specular highlights. I know they are 'pixel' perfect and don't suffer the issues that LCD TV's have but by the same token, you don't want a much darker APL just to fit in the range of specular highlights. Most of an HDR image is usually in 0-250nits range and say, for example, a 'face' was around 150 nits when it was mastered, you don't really want that to be 80nits just to give a bigger range for the highlights. By that I mean if the majority is in the 0-250nits, then with an OLED, the 250-4000nits has to be compressed down to 250-650nits if you want to keep the highlight detail and APL reasonably high or you could clip a lot of detail to increase the APL, or just compress the 0-4000 down to 0-650nits and then lower the APL making much of it look darker than SDR and poor for daytime viewing.

      If you have a TV that hits 1500 (for example), you can easy map the luminescence 1:1 with HDR10 content mastered to 1000nits (something OLEDs can't - not a criticism btw) and have a much bigger range if you track 1:1 upto say 300nits and scale the 300-4000 down to be between 300 and 1500nits - this the method Samsung used effectively last year - the only manufacturer who didn't suffer clipping issues. Sony seem to want to map relatively accurately up to the limit of the TV and Clip highlight detail to keep the APL high, LG seem, this year, to compress everything down so gives a lower APL but retains highlight detail. Panasonic, with their OLEDs, seem to be using a similar method to Samsung in that they track accurately to a certain point and then compress the highlights down to their TV's limitation - not completely as 'some minor clipping' can occur but only with the very highest Peak brightness - the 'rarest' and in some cases HDR films mastered to 4000nits, never goes above say 3000nits so most of the time, no clipping occurs - just the content above 3000nits for example.

      To keep things simple, lets just stick to 1000nits and what Dynamic Metadata can do for a TV that only hits 600nits.
      In most scenes, the film doesn't go above 500nits so Dynamic metadata will say map 1:1 (no need to compress anything)
      In the next scene though we have a few instances where the Peak brightness reaches 800nits but 90% of the scene is 300nits or less. Dynamic metadata will then say map up to 300nits 1:1 but scale 300-800nits down to be between 300-600nits so you keep the scene integrity and don't clip the 600-800nit details.
      In the next scene, 90% of the image is 200nits or less but there are some sparks mastered at 1000nits, so the metadata says map 1:1 upto 200nits now and compress the 200-1000 to be between 200-600nits

      What this does is always make the bulk of the picture map 1:1 and always hit the max peak brightness to give the 'best' overall experience without any clipping. If you set the 'static' metadata based on the above say to map upto 250nits 1:1 and then compress 250-1000 down to 250-600, In the above example, the 0-500nit scenes would be mapped accurately upto 250, but the content above that would be compressed and instead of getting 500nits, you get 400nits
      In the next scene, only 80% is now mapped 1:1 and instead of hitting 600nits, the maximum brightness only reaches 500nits. In the final scene, over 90% is mapped 1:1 and the peak brightness is maxed out so would be 'ok' but as you can see, the above 'dynamic' metadata' would make 'better use' of the limitations of the TV.

      If you 'always' use the static metadata, for content that never goes above 750nits for example, your TV will never give you the maximum brightness it is capable of, never hit 600nits because its compressing 250-1000nits down to 250-600nits so 750 would only reach say 500nits but with Dynamic Metadata, you can say that the content only reaches 750nits so in those scenes, map 250-750 down to 250-600 so you actually get a 'better' and 'brighter' image.

      This is just an example of how Dynamic Metadata can help but for the majority of users, some of these tiny differences will not be that obvious if you are not comparing on identical TVs. Panasonics HDR10 handling could look virtually identical to LG's DV - maybe a slight difference here and there, and like I said, a bit of clipping with Panasonic on extreme brights.

      Dynamic Metadata is obviously 'better' because it can make better use of the TV's capability. HDR10+ could well become the 'default' option for multiple content providers - not just big film studios that make 'billions' every year but all the content providers - inc games consoles and developers. All those studios that aren't going to bother paying Dolby Vision when they can use HDR10+. It may not be 'technically' superior and require a higher bandwidth between source and Display, but if it's found in many more devices and content (thanks to being open source), This really could be the 'Betamax vs VHS' of this generation...
       
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    12. John NG

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      Any news on when the novel is going to be released? (Joke ).
       
    13. zubeir

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      Or a movie..
      HDR10+ The force awakens..
      A knife in the back for Dolby Vision.
       
    14. John NG

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      200w.gif
       
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    15. gadget man

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      All us on this forum are technology minded and geeks the general public do not have a clue about all this. All becoming confusing now and something will have to give, updates every year is way too much.
       
    16. John NG

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      Totally agree. I have 2 Samsung UE55JS9000's and I am sticking with those until the next 'big step' in technology happens. 'Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk', showed me what my TV's are capable of producing, so stopped me buying the LG65G6V when it was reduced. So, my advice, if you have a decent HDR 4K TV, I would wait for the next 'big step' in technology and not these considerably 'little tweaks'. As I had heard 'HFR' , high frame rate, TV's, 120fps 4K was possibly another tweak on the horizon. Not a big enough leap in technology for me to feel the need to replace the TV's I already own.
       
    17. John Hother

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      I just ordered a Panny TX- 65EZ950E, are we, and others to be left behind? This just to much. It is not the first time I have bought a new TV, just to find out, that when I receive the new TV - it is outdated.
       
    18. BAMozzy

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      Whilst many of us here are more technologically minded, it doesn't mean that 'everyone' is completely clueless either. I am sure many of us have friends and family that may want some help or advice. Especially in the last year when quite a few have decided to upgrade to a 4k HDR TV to go with their new PS4 Pro, XB1s or the upcoming XB1x

      I know I get asked frequently by a quite a large portion of my social group - including virtual (online) groups too. I have had friends phone me and ask for advice when Currys salesmen (for example) are trying to push them towards a 'certain TV' and accessories.

      I have pointed a few in the right direction and given recommendations to visit this site for information and research purposes (amongst other sites - depending on what they are researching). The 'general' public that I assume you are referring to are generally not likely to be looking to upgrade their TV unless its 'broken'. The majority that are, tend to be AV enthusiasts looking for the 'best' 4k HDR TV to watch 4k HDR content or gamers looking to buy a TV to go with their Pro, XB1X or XB1s.

      Those who are 'not' enthusiasts, will probably be 'satisfied' with a 'cheap' 4k TV that may say HDR too - even if its nowhere near UHD Premium specs. Most will be upgrading from a 1080p SDR TV, probably never bother with Calibration settings and buy the best looking (aesthetically) TV in the size range they want and with the 'best' showroom picture - even if itss down to the quality of the source. When they get home, set it up etc, as long as it looks as good, if not better than their previous, they won't care. Any HDR content is probably going to look better than their 1080p SDR TV - especially if they have also gone a bit bigger too - so they may not care what HDR it is, its still an upgrade over what they have been accustomed too. I bet the General Public won't care if its DV, HDR10, HDR10+ or HLG - virtually all content is HDR10 anyway with a few of those offering Dolby Vision and/or maybe HDR10+ as well. If they buy a HDR10 Bluray Player as well, buy the Despicable Me films (for example) they can still watch the movies in HDR10. They may not know the difference between the two, may even get confused and think Dolby Vision is a new Audio option for movies as they associate Dolby with music...

      Point is, if they haven't got the intelligence to research or understand, chances are they aren't overly bothered and would still be 'happy' regardless - as long as the 'picture' looks right. It doesn't matter to me whether they understand or not - its not my money, not me that has to watch it, not me missing out....
       
    19. BAMozzy

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      All technology is 'outdated' relatively quickly. The Panny EZ950 could be one of the HDR10+ TV's on the market. It doesn't have Dolby Vision like LG's OLEDs or Sony's A1 (if its been updated now) but has excellent tone mapping for HDR10 and will support HLG. I wouldn't be surprised if it does get a HDR10+ update too - after all Samsung said they would update their 2016 KS TV's with HDR10+ after its rolled out to the Q series.

      HDR10 (Dynamic HDR) was always on the horizon. Its listed as one of the feature set of HDMI2.1 when that launches. HDMI2.1 could be the 'next' additions to TV's and a number of features like eARC - not essential if you go through your AV receiver, Game VRR (not essential yet and the only console that could benefit currently is the upcoming XBX), HFR 2160/120 is a possibility but unlikely many devices currently can offer that and Dynamic HDR too

      At the moment, no TV can hit more than 2000nits - that's quite a bit shy of the 4000nit mastering monitors and obviously a bigger gap from the 10000nits that DV wanted to get to. No TV offers 100% of the REC2020 colour gamut and maybe 1 can offer 100% of the DCI-P3 gamut. Also no TV yet has a 12bit Panel - another aspect that DV wants to offer. As such, there is scope to improve all these specs with each new years range.

      Your Panny though does have HLG support for example and that hasn't launched yet. Its no further 'behind' the times than any of the other 4k HDR TV's on the market and, based on this article, likely to be going down the HDR+ route. Whether LG and Sony add this to their repertoire or not, we will have to see. When I bought my TV last year, I bought it to replace a 2yr old same size 4k TV that couldn't offer 'HDR' and only had 4 HDMI2.0 (not a or b) ports with only one offering HDCP2.2 - in other words, inadequate for the 4k era we know now. In the last year, HLG and HDR10+ have (or will be soon) added via updates. We are still waiting for the launch of HDMI 2.1 and HLG but we don't know which (if any) TV's could be updated to utilise HDMI2.1 or any of its features. The XBX can use Game VRR (a HDMI 2.1 feature) but only has a HDMI2.0 port. We know the ports can be upgraded but not all hardware has the capacity to be upgraded to handle the higher bandwidth.

      Maybe your Panny can be upgraded to HDMI2.1 - maybe just the 2 full bandwidth HDMI ports rather than all 4. Whether that's important to you and your set-up, I don't know Right here, right now though, its still one of the best 2017 4k HDR TV's on the market...
       
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    20. giogt600

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      Just like has already been said...i too am an AV enthusiast but come on, this is getting beyond a joke as far as i'm concerned....!! All it does is serve to put people off. I mean come on....4 types of HDR now to deal with and god knows how many more variations in the future....!! That is a complete joke and these companies i feel are starting to take the P out of it's consumers....!! How do you expect the customer to commit to a new technology when the manufacturers are constantly changing the goalposts....!! All it does for me is put me off and feel less enthusiastic about diving into the 4K world for fear of it being outdated in five minutes. Of course you may then even be forced to upgrade some other piece of AV equipment in the video chain just to keep up...!! A shameful way to do business in my view.....!! Not going to be getting any of my money until it all settles i'm afraid....!!
       
    21. Roohster

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      I'm going to wait for HDR260+++THX DobblyPlus (version six) where a man from the studio sits behind your telly and grades every shot live.
      There will also be an option to have a sound engineer sit at the back of the room doing a live mix.

      On a more serious note, why can't the manufacturers just agree on what works best, give us that and rake in the profits? All this is doing is putting people off who are already sitting on the fence waiting to see what happens.

      Utterly ridiculous.
       
    22. John NG

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      I have a brought a pair of Kef Reference 5's for my audio set up. Bridged mono amps and pre amp, Linn LP12 with Ittock arm and Troikka carttridge. Among lots of other stuff, like a 'Lazer Disc Player', and a Domino Sim 2 projector. I actually know more about visual stuff as 'counter surveillance' and even filming small demos of my best friend's company's work, for presentations. So I have picked up a bit of technical knowledge. Also spent a fortune on AV over the years. I just think it will be at least a couple of years for the next big step. I am ex forces, 3 years 3 para, 15 Pathfinder. Now working a lot less.
       
    23. scrowe

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      But in my view it 'is' part and parcel of doing business. There was an open standard HDR10, manufacturers were free to adopt this, and because it's open source, any developments are shared back into the standard so everyone benefits. So other than evolutionary improvements, such as HDR10+ which would naturally happen, everything was there albeit limited. HLG is another open-standard that has been wholly adopted by the Broadcast Industry, I can only assume due to differences around how movies are produced versus how TV is produced. But all manufacturers agreed to support this as well as HDR10 anyway.

      Now Dolby as a commercial entity, outside of display manufacturing identified issues with the agreed standards, and commercialised a new technique such that they were able to say, hey we can take some of the R&D and implementation pain away from you, if you license this from us. But even if the financials were viable here there was no critical-mass Industry support for this solution, and it also possibly meant less profit for manufacturers because of the Dolby Costs. It was only after this years models were on the production line, that more expansive studio support was announced, and yes, some Manufacturers weighed the risk and included a dormant chip in their sets that could be enabled later.

      But if there is blame, Dolby are arguably the ones that ruined the party, by offering a commercial solution that was potentially viable for the Industry. But it has already been proven that differences between DV and HDR10 can be negligible, there are already viable development techniques to produce viable mastering to display capability mapping to good effect, and other high-end manufacturers like Lumagen are also able to develop their own methods, so I don't blame manufacturers like Samsung and Panasonic, and some studios saying, no, we don't need to pay Dolby we can do this ourselves using the existing open-source standards.
       
    24. John NG

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      One other thing I have noticed. With the full 60fps, HDR 4K like in Billy Lynn's, I think it is so crystal clear it kinda looks strange. Am I on my own in thinking this way?
       
    25. babator

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      Can someone like Steve please clarify. Is HDR10+ the same thing as the "standards-based dynamic metadata" that has been mentioned previously as possibly coming with HDMI 2.1 (not even sure if HDMI 2.1 was where it was supposed to be defined), or yet another new entrant?

      I'm starting to feel like I am losing grasp of all the different HDR formats, HDMI versions, HDCP versions, and colour spaces.
       
    26. steviedr

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      We all know why ... $$$$$$
       
    27. Steve Withers

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      Yes HDR10+ is based on the SMPTE 2094-40 standard.
       
    28. Fella55

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      Say that after 10 pints...
       
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    29. BRAKKUS1

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      It's the same with 4K 60 HDR in gaming vs 30fps, there is no panning judder or flickering for the decent picture and effects to hide behind, holding it back in my view.
       
    30. davidcrofter

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      And that is the rub - so many people caught up in the Dolby Vision hype, who insist they "need it" without ever having seen what "it" actually is ...

      If this adds more choice to the end consumer then that has got to be a good thing (especially if it is software backwards compatible) ... your display will simply pick up whatever versions of HDR that it is capable of. No sweat ...
       

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