NEWS: Sony launches native 4K VPL-VW290ES and VW890ES projectors

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
Maby but I don't own a JVC at last not yet :)

I have an Epson 9400 and there is a huge difference between out of the box and the calibration sheets I used from Alaric
Ohh thats even worse, the positive is that you like it. Once you get a better projector that is calibrated perfectly, and you have matched gamma/ tonemapping so the HDR and SDR looks the same, the epson cant resolve 1080P so the eshift is mostly there to hide the huge pixel grid, not to generate higher resolution.
 

Harold88

Member
But it does generate more resolution, I know what I see as i have an OLED and I often check things to compare.

I do not see more details on OLED at last not if I don't stare at the screen from a couple of centimeters away.

Of course I'm talking about movies not about test patterns or photos.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
Maby the projector was out of focus? Who knows if the owner was able to set it coreclty.

Also that x5900 needs eshift do display 4k content so you can't just ignore it :)
It had recently been calibrated and it was a friend of a friend who offered to take me over to see if because the room was very similar to my own.

Crispness is a personal thing, I’m not saying that it wasn’t a good image because it was but I’m use to how the Epson looks and I missed that definition it had when I looked at the x5900. I’m sure I would get use to it over time but it wouldn’t be something I would prefer to lose if given the choice.
 

Harold88

Member
so the HDR and SDR looks the same

The dynamic range might be tonned to look the same but movies mastered with bt2020 look better than same movies mastered with rec 709

This is my experience with all movies and TV shows i have watched and tested on both projector and OLED
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
The dynamic range might be tonned to look the same but movies mastered with bt2020 look better than same movies mastered with rec 709

This is my experience with all movies and TV shows i have watched and tested on both projector and OLED
Thats perfectly ok, my experience is the opposite, i have 5 JVC projector, 28 CRT projectors, oled and plasma tv, and ill guess around 12 1080-4K players, multiple streaming solutions, and quite a bit of calibration hardware.
As I mentioned before, subjective opinions cant be argued, you prefer whatever you like, the only thing we can discuss here is whats right and whats wrong, based on objective measures and tests.
 

Harold88

Member
As I mentioned before, subjective opinions cant be argued, you prefer whatever you like, the only thing we can discuss here is whats right and whats wrong, based on objective measures and tests.

I find it very odd the fact that from all the home cinema enthusiasts I have met either in real life or on different online platforms, you are the only one that don't like movies mastered with bt2020.

Also, what are you doing with so many projectors and players, are you trying to open the first home cinema museum?

I know people who have a passion for collecting different stuff like old photos, cars, guns, books, and many other things but I belive you are the only one who collects projectors :rotfl:
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
I find it very odd the fact that from all the home cinema enthusiasts I have met either in real life or on different online platforms, you are the only one that don't like movies mastered with bt2020.

Also, what are you doing with so many projectors and players, are you trying to open the first home cinema museum?

I know people who have a passion for collecting different stuff like old photos, cars, guns, books, and many other things but I belive you are the only one who collects projectors :rotfl:
The problem is not the BT2020 sure more wont hurt, its when you have source material, and displays that don't match, then it becomes a funky mess of software, scaling and converting from multiple devices, just see how DV is different on OPPO and Panasonic, nobody know why.

Its a very very small part of consumers who have a setup that can actually display 4K HDR WCG as it was intended, I understand why most people like the 4K masterings, its the same story as why displays are always oversaturated 10000 kelvin in the stores, and 4K demo clips are mostly mastered/ designed not to trigger the most common issues displaying it on crappy displays adjusted totally out of wack.

Its smart marketing, you have a hole army of people running out to buy the latest and greatest HDR device that is obsolete next week.

Consumers want wow, they get wow, and they like wow, personally I find wow to look like crap, and no I'm not the only one, but hey, if you show me a perfectly tracking BT2020 and st2084 with a proper dynamic range/ contrast, minimum 50000:1 calibrated on one of your Epson, ill take my hat off and give you one of my JVC projectors for free, delivered on your doorstep, setup and calibrated to your liking.
 

Harold88

Member
if you show me a perfectly tracking BT2020 and st2084 with a proper dynamic range/ contrast, minimum 50000:1 calibrated on one of your Epson, ill take my hat off and give you one of my JVC projectors for free, delivered on your doorstep, setup and calibrated to your liking.
Firstly there is not need for full dynamic range in order to enjoy some of the benefits of UHD 4k Discs. Personally, after many tests, I have come to the conclusion that the best image i get is by tonemapping HDR to SDR at 150 target lumminance, using OPPO and, of course, with the option to preserve bt2020. Many Epson owners are using the HDR slider in order to do the tone mapp directly on the projector but I have very mixed results when doing that. Most movies look too dark if I close the slider to the point where I can see specular highlights good enough.

Secondly I want to thank you for your most generous offer but even if your conditions could have been achived, I would not accept such fancy gifts couse we all know what happend to the people of Troy when they did :D
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
Firstly there is not need for full dynamic range in order to enjoy some of the benefits of UHD 4k Discs. Personally, after many tests, I have come to the conclusion that the best image i get is by tonemapping HDR to SDR at 150 target lumminance, using OPPO and, of course, with the option to preserve bt2020. Many Epson owners are using the HDR slider in order to do the tone mapp directly on the projector but I have very mixed results when doing that. Most movies look too dark if I close the slider to the point where I can see specular highlights good enough.

Secondly I want to thank you for your most generous offer but even if your conditions could have been achived, I would not accept such fancy gifts couse we all know what happend to the people of Troy when they did :D
OPPO and Epson use static tonemapping, thats like generations old by now, and is known to be far from optimal.
Im not arguing that you cant enjoy it, but its objectively nowhere near what HDR was intended to look like, and I doubt your SDR setup is anywhere near optimal as well, so I'm just doubting the setup you are basing your conclusion on.

Would it be possible you could run some testpatterns? do you have the 4K SM testdisc.
 

bittihuduga

Active Member
quick question about sony 290es - i read from specs that the life of the projector is 6000 hours in Eco mode Mode (low) and low operating noise (26 dB).
1. what i understand is the PJ cannot do HDR or 4k on eco mode, is that correct?
2. how many hours can the lamp do in regular mode (non eco mode)?
3. what s the noise level in regular or non eco mode?
i tried looking in many places but couldn't find answers to my questions.
any help is much appreciated? thanks
 

Slinkywizard

Well-known Member
quick question about sony 290es - i read from specs that the life of the projector is 6000 hours in Eco mode Mode (low) and low operating noise (26 dB).
1. what i understand is the PJ cannot do HDR or 4k on eco mode, is that correct?
2. how many hours can the lamp do in regular mode (non eco mode)?
3. what s the noise level in regular or non eco mode?
i tried looking in many places but couldn't find answers to my questions.
any help is much appreciated? thanks
I had a 260 quite a while back, so I can definitely help here...

1. Depends on the size of your screen. 'Eco mod' is just low lamp, or lowered light output. Most people misunderstand what HDR is with projectors. It's really an expanded colour gamut with increased black detail more than it is eye-searing specular highlights. This projector will make a decent fist of HDR on a smaller screen (up to 100" I would say in Eco mode, up to 120" in full lamp). But yes, if you want to run it in eco mode the screen is going to have to be quite small. Also these projectors need 100% light controlled environment. They're not bright enough for locations where ambient light is a factor.

2. The stated figures of 3000/6000 for eco/full are absolute nonsense. The problem is, those figures are for half-life. That means that by the time you reach those hours you will have lost half the light available. You will also find that artefacting starts to appear in the form of discolouration in the image the later into the lamps life you are. My experience was that you can half those estimates before the image is too dim and blotchy to enjoy. And since I personally would never run this projector on low lamp, that meant replacing the lamp every 1,500 hours.

3. Sony projectors are some of the quietest in existence. I wouldn't even worry about it. If you have content playing, they are completely inaudible, high lamp or not.
 

Harold88

Member
If you are going to use the same lamp mode for HDR, what will be the difference between SDR and HDR?

You need extra light reserve in order to have spectacular highlights. If you are not providing this, the HDR will look just more colorful than SDR, nothing else.

Don't be afraid of using high lamp.
 

DB9S

Well-known Member
High lamp for HDR and low lamp for SDR. Simples.
The 290 will allow separate presets for each mode (each preset can store separate SDR and HDR settings) so after setting them up, it is as simple as a key press to switch between them. :)
 

Slinkywizard

Well-known Member
High lamp for HDR and low lamp for SDR. Simples.
The 290 will allow separate presets for each mode (each preset can store separate SDR and HDR settings) so after setting them up, it is as simple as a key press to switch between them. :)
Personally I would use high lamp for both. This is not a bright projector, and HDR isn't about brightness so much as it is about dynamics. Low lamp even on SDR looked dim when I had one of these on a 118" 1.1 gain screen. It's more like:

High lamp: Great SDR
High lamp: Okayish HDR

Your low-lamp SDR and high lamp HDR would just result in Okayish SDR to go with your Okayish HDR from my experience. But it depends on screen size and gain obvs.
 

DB9S

Well-known Member
Personally I would use high lamp for both. This is not a bright projector, and HDR isn't about brightness so much as it is about dynamics. Low lamp even on SDR looked dim when I had one of these on a 118" 1.1 gain screen. It's more like:

High lamp: Great SDR
High lamp: Okayish HDR

Your low-lamp SDR and high lamp HDR would just result in Okayish SDR to go with your Okayish HDR from my experience. But it depends on screen size and gain obvs.
Thing is, without brightness overhead there will never be as much range to be dynamic in. (Black floor being equal that is). With projectors, the range is what the range is, and everything is compressed into what is available. Less brightness, less range = more compression with all the associated pitfalls therein.
The main and only reason I would suggest low for SDR and high for HDR in this case, is simply for the benefit of bringing a perceivable difference between the two.
Best thing is for the end user to experiment and decide what they can live with.
'Tis a bit weird that a 1500 lumen projector is sold as an HDR device though... HDR compatible would be a better label.
;)
 

big boss

Well-known Member
sorry how much are these repalcement bulbs for sony?
It'll be a good few years before it needs replacing. Replacement bulb will cost around £150-200.
 

big boss

Well-known Member
I've never used eco mode, and I have the HW40ES which has a third of bulb life. Still going strong after 6 years.
 

DB9S

Well-known Member
thanks, haven't bought one yet. was thinking to buy one but got to know that in eco mode i would not get full 4k
All native 4k machines do 4k all the time. All eco does is reduce the brightness of the bulb. You still get full 4k and HDR in that mode, but HDR will look dark.
 
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bittihuduga

Active Member
i think i got the point, this is a great pj and even if we have to go full non eco mode and change bulbs every few years, it is still worth to buy. thanks for clarification
 

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