NEWS: Samsung Micro-LED TV rumoured for CES 2018

Discussion in 'Samsung TVs Forum' started by Mark Hodgkinson, Nov 29, 2017.


    1. Mark Hodgkinson

      Mark Hodgkinson
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    2. Goldorak

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      Thank you mark, between this news and Apple rumored to be interested, what is your pronostics on development ? Impact on oled (positive short medium term as it will be refined faster, longer term a real threat?

      I believe bigger sizes are easier to produce. Based on other sources, Looks like we could be looking at commercial product 2020 or earlier?
       
    3. Barcoing Mad

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      Small enough to fit? 150" will do nicely thank you.
       
    4. Spacecat

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      I'll take 2 please.
       
    5. Joe C

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      Where we're going we don't need walls...
       
    6. EndlessWaves

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      Any details on what the 'truly new' technology involved is? Obviously there's nothing new about ~0.86mm pixel pitch LED screens, you can go out and buy them right now.

      Nobody's attached one to a TV yet and it'll be interesting to see the results of that but it'd be more interesting to hear about the areas in which Samsung have improved them.
       
    7. ryanvincent

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      This is a much more promising technology than OLED, the prospect of much lower costs and higher brightness without uniformity issues.
       
    8. jmacc

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      And screen burn, big plus for gamers.
       
    9. Norman

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      Agreed, this technology has the potential to be the Holy Grail of display technologies, combining the best features of LED and OLED without their respective disadvantages.
       
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    10. Atomicus

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      How big is that going to be?? I thought I recall seeing a 110" TV that was 2.5m wide a few years back. This is going to be ridiculous! I certainly would like something that would rival a projector set-up (and be on par for cost), but I'd be maxed out at about 2.3-2.4m wide. I suspect any TV at this size is going to easily be well in to 5-figures though.
       
    11. 20hz

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    12. EndlessWaves

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      A 150" 16:9 screen is 332cm wide

      2.3-2.4m wide is 104-108" diagonals, although you'd probably have to allow a bit for the bezels too (although gaps between LED display modules can be pretty small these days).
       
    13. daredevill

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      If I could get a picture like my oled on a screen size my PJ gives me for around £3-4K then I'm in! Come on Samsung pull your finger out..
       
    14. Atomicus

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      You'd think they might recognise a market here? Projector sales are obviously on the rise significantly, but how many people can fit a 332cm wide TV in their home, nevermind afford one?! As Daredevill says, it would be great if they offered something under the £5K mark that would compare with a projector screen size... in my case 100"-110" would be amazing, but I think we might be waiting a few years for this to happen.
       
    15. BAMozzy

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      Micro LED and/or the self emitting QLED technology both seem like a great alternative to OLEDs and their 'short-comings' - most notably cost and the fact organic compounds are less stable and can breakdown. It also seems that OLED technology is struggling to push the peak brightness up too meaning that all HDR content has to be tone mapped down. There are concerns over Image retention and more worryingly screen burn. You can't deny though that self emitting tech provides the 'perfect' picture and eliminates the issues of backlighting - even FALD can't eradicate.

      I had heard that Nanosys were developing a QD layer that sits in front of the panel that could really help OLEDs to increase their brightness and colour gamuts but that Photo-emissive layer isn't quite ready. Of course it can sit in front of LCD panels too which should give a much wider viewing angle - something current VA panel HDR LCD TV's are not great with but as far as self emitting QLED's go, we are still years away from this.

      Micro LED's though could, if this rumour is to be believed, be the answer. Its whether or not those tiny LEDs (3 are needed per pixel - R, G & B) can be manufactured small enough for most domestic uses. Also whether or not they can get bright enough without burning out, require some ABL for full screen brights (OLEDs are limited up to around 150nits due to power and heat concerns) and whether they can be made cheaply, effectively and last long enough to be competitive. 150" is ridiculously large for most homes. At 55", a 4k TV has around 80 pixels per inch so that would require 240 micro LEDs per inch - that's how 'small' these would need to be and still deliver over 1000nits (ideally) and preferably without ABL kicking in (or not as aggressively as OLEDs any way) - at least that's what I would like...
       
    16. Atomicus

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      150" is really just a proof of concept simply to WOW the masses though... it's obviously never going to be a mainstream consumer product. We've seen these crazy big screens before, even Plasma was doing it years ago... never actually results in an affordable mainstream product, and even if it did no one could fit one through their front door anyway. It's totally impractical for 99% of us. Hopefully this will filter down to smaller sets we can actually buy without re-mortgaging though! :)
       
    17. Goldorak

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      You will find some answers to your questions in this thread (especially the link about Micro led. Seems that up to 55, it is possible. The bigger size the better)
      CES 2018 & future
       
    18. invisiblekid

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      Your going to need a bigger TV
       
    19. dr no

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      Self emitting LED displays like this or true QLED sound really good and possible future of TV. I suspect they are still a few years away from it. Samsung no doubt will try another misinformation strategy to pull people away from OLED by saying they are very close.

      Look forward to when they do come though.
       
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    20. Goldorak

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      Early information (oled research websites) talk about 2020 for commercial use ( see thread ces 2018)
      Samsung offensive next 2-3 years is improved lcd fald with quantum dot. Add to that super thin glass lcd panels...
      If it works, that will be an interesting challenger medium term to oled and a definite winner long term
       
    21. jmacc

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      What I need is an acceptable 65" bandy oled to do me a few years until stuff like this is out. :)
      Looking forward to see how all this develops.
       
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    22. BAMozzy

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      The QD layer was expected to be in front this year but it ended up being behind as per last years KS series. I assume that's the 'photo-emmissive' layer Nanosys are working on. When Samsung showed the Q9 with fantastic (for LCD) viewing angles, this seemed to be indicative of the QD layer in front. I wouldn't be surprised if that's Samsungs 'next' step for commercially available TV's in the next year or 2 until 'Micro-LED' or self emitting 'QLED' technology can be manufactured for commercial use.
       
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    23. Goldorak

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      Spot on sir, that’s the intermediary stage before true self emissive in the future. That plus fald plus that 1.8-5mm new Glass lcd...and we are talking
       
    24. BAMozzy

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      Personally, I am not overly keen on FALD. In principal its 'better' than Edgelit arrangements but that also means the TV's are thicker, heavier (not that I am constantly lifting them), more power hungry and require more 'cooling'. Also you get a more 'blocky' look - mostly noticeable in the 'haloing' instead of fading naturally to black. Obviously it reduces the amount of haloing but can't eradicate it entirely. Even a FALD arrangement with 1000 lights means that each light is responsible for illuminating 8.3k pixels. I know that it can help in certain scenes and particularly with Black bar (21:9) content but I feel the blocky nature is more distracting and unnatural looking - even if that means more of the screen is actually 'black'.

      [​IMG]
      As this image shows, you can see the blocky haloing under the curve - the TV on the left is the Panasonic DX902 and the one on the right, the KS9800. In both, you can see the straight edge that the 'zone' creates although its much more apparent on the DX902 in this example - so much so you can see the individual zones at the ends of either curve. You can see how the local dimming zones are doing their job but these are still limited to 'blocks' depending on how many lights are in the array. Its still not as good as having 8.3m 'dimming' zones as each pixel can be perfectly black as Self emitting tech allows.

      I know an Edge lit would most likely have more 'haloing' overall but would fade more naturally into black and thus not have those unnaturally straight cut off edges. This is why LCD's can't compete with OLEDs - Even FALD. I know its not 'every' scene or situation. I have an Edge lit TV myself and the majority of the time, I see no issues at all - its mostly just 'end credits' on a solid black background that this occurs and even the Black bars aren't distracting or 'poor' but I can't say its perfect either. I don't think Gravity would be a good film for LCDs - FALD or Edgelit. Their one saving grace is their Brightness which can work incredibly well - especially in brighter room environments.

      Its these 'issues' though that is why people are hoping for the self emitting technology such as Micro-LED or QLED will arrive sooner rather than later as they 'promise' the perfect picture that OLEDs can deliver BUT the brightness that LCDs offer - essentially the best of both with none of the major drawbacks associated with both technology.
       
    25. MikeTVMikeTV

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      Lower production costs + high RRP as it's the new new = PROFIT!!!!

      It's Samsung, it won't be cheap, they need to recoup losing millions in lawsuits, exploding phones and losing the premium TV market share.
       
    26. BAMozzy

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      One way of recouping millions and regaining the Premium TV Market share is to undercut everyone else. Its better to sell Millions with smaller profit than sell thousands with a big profit. If Samsung were to release a Micro-TV next year for example, they would have to convince people that its a better buy than OLED but they won't do it if specs are similar (maybe just 'brighter') but costs twice as much as the equivalent OLED. Some guarantee - like a 10yr no burn in guarantee may help but its still a 'new' technology so people will be wary of life expectancy too. Don't want to be burning out LEDs in a year or so.
       
    27. Goldorak

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      Can’t agree with you more. I am no pro Samsung or anyone else for that matter

      Oled principle is the winner. However, I refuse to buy a tv and HOPE it is ok? It is like buying a car and hoping no hidden issues...a joke full stop.

      LG hit the 80 percent golden yield my ass!!! It will be 57 or lower if you look straight...

      Micro led is the real deal. I am sure of it now. Competition will bring Price down. This will also force oled to improve and offer “proper” burn in guarantee...(don’t even start me on this. Every time my son freeze the screen, I have a heart attack...and the funny part: don’t even have an oled :)

      So, assuming Micro led is here 2020/22, shall I play the oled lottery or have a GOOD fald from Sony or Samsung or even pana ? This is the real question.

      I am hoping ces2018 will clarify things. LG super low oled prices in 2017 May help accept the oled risk and imperfection for a while. However, I feel it is not right.
       
    28. Goldorak

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      The coming battle is not based on micro led. It is the fald lcd including front qantum led with a glass super thin panel...
      Battle will be on better hdr and brightness, no burn in risk or guaranteed cover, potentially on price to recoup market share and also color gamut.
      Micro led will take time and will be reserved to the big big flagships costing a fortune.
       
    29. BAMozzy

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      The main issue I see is making the Micro LEDs small enough to be used in the most popular screen sizes. At 55 inches, there are 80 pixels per inch so therefore would require 240 Micro LEDs per inch. Each pixel is made up of 3 tiny LEDs - 1 each for R, G and B. The smaller the TV, the more Micro LEDs are required per inch due the increased density. You would think that this is the limiting factor for TV's. Whether they can make these small enough and still deliver the Brightness and colour gamuts demanded for HDR content.

      The QD Photo-emissive layer could still be used with this (and LCD, OLED technology) at the front to boost brightness, colour gamuts and, in the case of LCD's, viewing angles too. This may well be a solution to increase the HDR performance - not just for Micro LED but could also help with OLEDs as well. Nanosys expects up to a 2.5x improvement to peak brightness levels by using a Photo emmissive layer. Instead of blocking out (filtering) unwanted light, they convert that to the 'colour' they should be displaying and therefore use that to 'boost' the peak brightness.

      I still thank LCD technology, regardless of QD layering, FALD or Edge lighting, they will never get the perfect picture that a self emitting tech offers. Unless they can come up with a layer at the back that perfectly blocks unwanted light. The way I picture it, this layer would mirror the 'image' but be Black and clear and literally be just the light 'map' of the image. A Solid black would be obviously the areas that NO light is required and a 'clear' area would be where the max light is needed. This Layer would be perfect for any backlight technology and be the 'dimming'. In theory, you could have ALL lights on MAX and use this 'layer' to set the brightness of each pixel. A Black would block ALL light, a clear would allow max light through and the 'greys' in between (like 50%) would 'dim' the amount of light getting through down. I don't know how possible that would be as I expect that it would require some 'metadata' to be sent to control that layer. Its the only way I can see for LCD Backlit tech to compete with self emitting tech...
       
    30. BRAKKUS1

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      Panny have developed such a thing, but not for consumers like us unfortunately.

      Panasonic Develops Industry's First IPS Liquid Crystal Panael with Contrast Ratio of over 1,000,000:1 | Headquarters News | Panasonic Newsroom Global
       
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