NEWS: Samsung announces Micro LED and Neo QLED TVs for 2021

Jay53

Active Member
An interesting and completely pointless feature, given that there's no 12 bit (native) content it could display. But as a result, it'll require an additional processing step to add information that's not there in the source content. The increase in bit depth is at the wrong end of the video pipeline!

This is from Samsung's blurb -
"Neo QLED increases the luminance scale to 12-bit with 4096 steps; this helps make dark areas darker and bright areas brighter, resulting in a more precise and immersive HDR experience."

Er, nope and nope. Increasing bit depth, even to just the luminance scale, which is odd in itself, will not give darker dark areas nor brighter bright areas. It'll just give more graduation in each colour, or between black and white, if it's just the luminance scale.
It's not like Samsung to blatantly lie to its customers... :rolleyes:

I'm not sold on the number of dimming zones, or lack thereof either. At most, the 4K version could have 2500 dimming zones, according to reports. That's still 3318 pixels per dimming zone though, so blooming and clouding are still very much likely to be a thing. Seems like just a marketing exercise to tide those over who must have the 'next big' thing, until a true leap forward like Micro LED becomes affordable.

Paul

I totally agree that 12bit panels are pointless at the moment and don't see why people need 48Gbs ports on a native 10bit display other than the bragging rights. Clearly LG and Samsung took the same view and only used 40Gbs ports on their 2020 line up. I still don't get why the PS5 outputs 12bit 4:2:2 content (so doesn't work with our Samsung TVs at 120hz) as that seems to be adding processing and then sacrificing colour information to fit into the 4L8 FRL available bandwidth?
 

youngsyp

Distinguished Member
I still don't get why the PS5 outputs 12bit 4:2:2 content (so doesn't work with our Samsung TVs at 120hz) as that seems to be adding processing and then sacrificing colour information to fit into the 4L8 FRL available bandwidth?
Does it? Mine outputs RGB, for gaming at least, which works fine on the Samsung TV it's plugged into. Or are you referring to video content?
I couldn't tell you the bit depth the PS5 outputs though, as I've never checked it. Although, if it's outputting 2160p60 RGB HDR10, it must be 10 bit maximum as that's the highest the TV's HDMI hardware would support.

With regards to your comment that it's sacrificing colour information if using YCC 4:2:2, it isn't. The source content will be encoded as YCC 4:2:0. So the PS5 is performing a necessary processing step to upsample that to YCC 4:2:2. If the PS5 didn't perform that step, your TV would have to, as the video has to get to YCC 4:4:4, via YCC 4:2:2, and then be converted to RGB in order for your TV to display it.

Paul
 
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Jay53

Active Member
Does it? Mine outputs RGB, for gaming at least, which works fine on the Samsung TV it's plugged into. Or are you referring to video content?
I couldn't tell you the bit depth the PS5 outputs though, as I've never checked it. Although, if it's outputting 2160p60 RGB HDR10, it must be 10 bit maximum as that's the highest the TV's HDMI hardware would support.

With regards to your comment that it's sacrificing colour information if using YCC 4:2:2, it isn't. The source content will be encoded as YCC 4:2:0. So the PS5 is performing a necessary processing step to upsample that to YCC 4:2:2. If the PS5 didn't perform that step, your TV would have to, as the video has to get to YCC 4:4:4, via YCC 4:2:2, and then be converted to RGB in order for your TV to display it.

Paul

I did say at 120hz or are you saying it works fine at 4k/120hz HDR enabled with your Samsung TV 🙂

And as to video content then yes that's all 4:2:0 but I believe gaming content is generated internally at RGB so surely that's downgrading in that situation?
 

MrMrH

Active Member
Don’t dismiss 8K out of hand. A few reviews I’ve read for 8K sets have said that the upscaling is something to behold.

I’m in no rush to get 8K as I have a phobia of early adopter tax, but if you had the coin to spend you might be surprised.

I’m looking forward to when @Steve Withers and/or Phil get to test an 8K set and I can get the opinions of people who I trust.
 

Kingchin

Active Member
The OLED killer:

MicroLed has a very very long way to go.....

None of these 100inch or over MicroLed tv's from Samsung, Sony etc is one single panel. They are all small lower resolution panels joined together like a jigsaw puzzle to make up either HD, 4k or 8k resolution.

It's no OLED killer until they can actually manufacture a single 65inch & over MicroLed panel in 4k or 8k resolution to sell to the consumer 👌🏾
 

youngsyp

Distinguished Member
I did say at 120hz or are you saying it works fine at 4k/120hz HDR enabled with your Samsung TV 🙂
Ah yes, so you did.

Isn't there a bunch of settings you can use to allow the PS5 to output optimally for your TV? Thus allowing it to output 2160p120 HDR with 10 bit colour depth?

And as to video content then yes that's all 4:2:0 but I believe gaming content is generated internally at RGB so surely that's downgrading in that situation?
Nope. The content is also encoded as YCC 4:2:0, for the same reasons as video content. I.e. disk space and bandwidth required to move the undecoded game data around.

Don’t dismiss 8K out of hand. A few reviews I’ve read for 8K sets have said that the upscaling is something to behold.
Ah, that's not 8K though, is it? That's 4K or less upscaled to 8K.

The real issue is that the vast majority of people don't even sit close enough to their 4K TV's, to get the full benefit of the resolution increase from 1080 to 2160 lines, myself included. To view an 8K display at the optimal distance, it'll either need to be gigantic (think 100"+) or you'll need to sit 3 feet from it, at current 4K TV sizes.
Oh and not to mention that the amount of native 8K content, currently available is about nout. And that's unlikely to change for sometime.

Paul
 
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CaptainJames

Well-known Member
Don’t dismiss 8K out of hand. A few reviews I’ve read for 8K sets have said that the upscaling is something to behold.

I’m in no rush to get 8K as I have a phobia of early adopter tax, but if you had the coin to spend you might be surprised.

I’m looking forward to when @Steve Withers and/or Phil get to test an 8K set and I can get the opinions of people who I trust.

But the upscaling of what sources? Sure a pristine 4K Blu ray upscaled to 8K might look good, but an average Sky HD broadcast or even a 4K stream is probably going to look pretty ropey . In the real world, this forms the majority of what people are watching.

I am sure they will produce some 8K Demos shot with ultra expensive cameras showing lots of still / low motion pictures that are jaw dropping, but that ain't what you are going to get day to day. How many films are even 8K native, let alone anything else?
 

youngsyp

Distinguished Member
It's no OLED killer until they can actually manufacture a single 65inch & over MicroLed panel in 4k or 8k resolution to sell to the consumer 👌🏾
Well no, it's not an OLED killer until it out sells OLED displays. And it won't do that if it's only available in 65" models.

I'd be surprised if we have a true consumer grade MicroLED display 3 years from now and even then, it'll only be the true AV enthusiast who'd part with the amount of cash that'll cost, to buy one.

Paul
 

Kingchin

Active Member
Well no, it's not an OLED killer until it out sells OLED displays. And it won't do that if it's only available in 65" models.
I said 65inch and over models because 65inch is the most popular best selling size tv people now buy for their living rooms. Agree MicroLed won't outsell OLED anytime soon.

I'd be surprised if we have a true consumer grade MicroLED display 3 years from now and even then, it'll only be the true AV enthusiast who'd part with the amount of cash that'll cost, to buy one.
Yep MicroLed is proving very difficult and expensive to manufacture. It will become easier to manufacture and the prices will come down but it will take many years of refinements.
 

MahaRaja

Member
When Micro-LED is coming to the masses in wallet friendly price and refinement in 4-5 years' time, what would happen to LG's OLED? Wil LG abandon it in place of something else.
 

youngsyp

Distinguished Member
I said 65inch and over models because 65inch is the most popular best selling size tv people now buy for their living rooms.
Is it? That's a huge shift from the statistics I've seen from 2019, where the top selling TV size was in the 30" range. Feel free to correct me though...

I was actually inferring that punters generally buy TV's smaller than 65", on mass and even then, they'll be at the budget end of the spectrum. Not the premium end like what a MicroLED TV will cost.

Yep MicroLed is proving very difficult and expensive to manufacture. It will become easier to manufacture and the prices will come down but it will take many years of refinements.
My understanding is that it's more a question of yield, than ease of manufacture. Current yield rates , of sufficient quality panels, isn't sufficient to allow consumer level pricing of them. Technology needs to shift to improve that.

In a similar way to how the promise of more cheaply produced OLED glass has been promised for a number of years, using inkjet printing. Theory is one thing, reality something different.

OLED's are on the 12th generation now, IIRC and only just dip below £1000 for a 55" model, after a number of months of discounting. That's not mass market pricing and Joe Public doesn't want to spend that sort of money on a TV.

Paul
 

Jay53

Active Member
Ah yes, so you did.

Isn't there a bunch of settings you can use to allow the PS5 to output optimally for your TV? Thus allowing it to output 2160p120 HDR with 10 bit colour depth?

There is the video transfer rate setting but as far as I know that does the following.
-2 = 4:2:0 12bit, -1 = 4:2:2 8bit; and on Automatic = RGB/4:4:4 12bit;

Which doesn't help the 4k/120hz HDR situation.

Anyway we digress :)
 

rustyk21

Active Member
Correct, Mini-LED is basically just FALD like the original high-end ones which actually had a good number of zones but cheaper to manufacture and thinner. Micro-LED is true emissive screen with 3 LEDs for each pixel.

Thank you, that's what I thought. It's important not to mix and match terminology.
Actually, I knew that was right. I've been around long enough to know the difference. Also, HDTVTEST doesn't mix them up ;-)
 

rustyk21

Active Member
It would probably be better if Micro-LED was called something like ILED as OLED is the natural comparator. Also if, a few years ago, we had instituted a policy of punching in the mouth anyone who called an LCD TV an LED TV, I think we would be in a much better position.o_O

So true! haha.
 

rustyk21

Active Member
Don’t dismiss 8K out of hand. A few reviews I’ve read for 8K sets have said that the upscaling is something to behold.

I’m in no rush to get 8K as I have a phobia of early adopter tax, but if you had the coin to spend you might be surprised.

I’m looking forward to when @Steve Withers and/or Phil get to test an 8K set and I can get the opinions of people who I trust.

I think there is an analogy to 4k and 120hz+ there. It's not just the resolution that matters, it's the fact that when the manufacturers introduce a 'new tech', it's not just a marketing thing.

They tend to put the newest features into the highest end TVs, which have the best panels, so they also excel in terms of contrast, brightness and other metrics that differentiate any expensive panel from a cheaper panel.

It's when they start banging them out for £300 in a few years times that everyone will start moaning that 8k is pointless.
 

DELUCAS

Distinguished Member
MicroLed has a very very long way to go.....

None of these 100inch or over MicroLed tv's from Samsung, Sony etc is one single panel. They are all small lower resolution panels joined together like a jigsaw puzzle to make up either HD, 4k or 8k resolution.

It's no OLED killer until they can actually manufacture a single 65inch & over MicroLed panel in 4k or 8k resolution to sell to the consumer 👌🏾

Could have sworn They have a Samsung Micro LED 88inch all in one panel coming soon
not quite 65inch but its getting there .
 

Stando

Member
4K mini-led (Neo QLED) could be a big deal. I hope they don't go overboard with dimming zones. I'd rather see affordable QLEDs with 240 zones (55 inch) than screens with 960 zones more expensive than OLED. Of course it's fine if they offer both.

The main appeal of mini-led for me is thinner and lighter screens and hopefully better screen uniformity. 240 zones is already great, especially with a good algorithm behind it. 480 zones is also cool. Anything beyond that and I feel like it'll unnecessarily inflate the cost just for the sake of making dark scenes slightly better.
 

DELUCAS

Distinguished Member
Coming soon (to a premier league footballer near you* :D


The Wall is back, but Samsung’s modular MicroLED TV line is doing things differently for 2021. During a spate of announcements ahead of CES 2021, Samsung unveiled a new MicroLED set that can be wall-mounted without professional installation – and looks to be putting its modular design to good use.


Available in three different sizes – 110-inch, 99-inch, and 88-inch – this MicroLED TV features a 99.99% screen-to-body ratio, meaning the bezel is pretty much non-existent.

New i was right better sell all my Star wars Collection & Gold 😎😎
 

Kingchin

Active Member
Could have sworn They have a Samsung Micro LED 88inch all in one panel coming soon
not quite 65inch but its getting there .
I read somewhere (don't know if true or not) that the new Samsung 88inch, 99inch, 110inch consumer MicroLed tv's come pre-assembled. Ie still modular like the wall but this time already fitted together by Samsung before shipping to the consumer. Panels that can potentially slip out of alignment over time and need tightened with a screwdriver.
PicsArt_01-08-10.45.25.jpg

PicsArt_01-08-10.45.50.jpg

PicsArt_01-08-10.46.12.jpg



Hardly any concrete information on them. But would make sense as Samsung tauting being able to watch 4 video feeds on the screen which suggests it is 4 modular panels pre-assembled joined together.

I guess we will find out during CES if it's one single panel like a normal television. or several panels pre-assembled joined together at the factory. I personally wouldn't buy any tv that is several panels jigsaw together.
 
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DELUCAS

Distinguished Member
I read somewhere (don't know if true or not) that the new Samsung 88inch, 99inch, 110inch consumer MicroLed tv's come pre-assembled. Ie still modular like the wall but this time already fitted together by Samsung before shipping to the consumer. Panels that can potentially slip out of alignment over time and need tightened with a screwdriver.
View attachment 1437157
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View attachment 1437159


Hardly any concrete information on them. But would make sense as Samsung tauting being able to watch 4 video feeds on the screen which suggests it is 4 modular panels pre-assembled joined together.

I guess we will find out during CES if it's one single panel like a normal television. or several panels pre-assembled joined together at the factory. I personally wouldn't buy any tv that is several panels jigsaw together.

Only possitive if its say 4 panels linked together if say one section goes faulty instead of changing whole screen , just change one panel which would work out a lot cheaper .
 

Kingchin

Active Member
Is it? That's a huge shift from the statistics I've seen from 2019, where the top selling TV size was in the 30" range. Feel free to correct me though...
I said specifically the best selling size for "living rooms" is now 65inch tv's. I never said anything about the best selling size tv for bedrooms, secondary rooms, kids bedrooms, kitchens etc.
 

Kingchin

Active Member
Only possitive if its say 4 panels linked together if say one section goes faulty instead of changing whole screen , just change one panel which would work out a lot cheaper .
True, I suppose the average person wouldn't care, even know its several panels stitched together. But a lot of AV enthusiastics wouldn't want a tv that is made up of several panels joined together. Even if it's barely noticeable unless going right up to the tv. I'm sure by the time MicroLed eventually becomes affordable for us mere mortals it will be a single panel for whatever screen size you buy.
 

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