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NEWS: LG confirms Dolby Atmos support coming to Apple TV app in 2020

Clem_Dye

Well-known Member
Using the ATV+ app. on my 2019 TV I get DV and DD5.1 audio. As I don't have kit that supports Atmos at present, I assumed that the app./TV combo. was defaulting to 5.1. The update will be useful though, but that assumes of course that my 2019 LG TV will get the necessary firmware update to support the codec. Time will tell.

Clem
 

Captain Ron

Well-known Member
Is there a list of the actual LG TV models that will be getting the ATV+ app?
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
The question should be "how is Apple going to be delivering Atmos in association with the app onboard LG TVs" and how are LG intending to output it to external devices?

Apple don't currently fascilitate bitstreaming DD+ inclusive of Atmos metadata in association with the Apple TV and Atmos can only be output it using Dolby MAT. Dolby MAT packages the Atmos metadata with multichannel PCM:

Dolby Atmos in Dolby MAT
A Dolby MAT encoder resides in a Blu-ray player to pack the variable bit-rate Dolby TrueHD bitstreams for transmission over the fixed bit-rate HDMI. A Dolby MAT decoder is concurrently employed in the Dolby TrueHD decoder in the sound bar to unpack the Dolby TrueHD bitstreams. With the introduction of Dolby Atmos, we have expanded the Dolby MAT technology to support encoding and decoding of Dolby Atmos metadata incorporated in lossless pulse-code modulation (PCM) audio.
A key benefit of Dolby MAT 2.0 is that Dolby Atmos object-based audio can be live encoded and transmitted from a source device with limited latency and processing complexity. Among the likely sources are broadcast set-top boxes and game consoles. The Dolby MAT 2.0 decoder in the Dolby Atmos enabled sound bar outputs the object-based audio and its metadata for further processing inside the device. The Dolby MAT 2.0 container is scalable and leverages the full potential of the HDMI audio pipeline.
The problem with this and LG's TVs is firstly the fact that conventional ARC cannot convey multichannel PCM and and cannot therefore convey Dolby MAT. Ssecondly, the fact that LG's current implimentation of eARC is unable to output multichannel PCM. The latter issue is supposed to be being rectified this year sometime? Even if they address the issue with eARC, that wll still alienate those with older AV receivers that aren't eARC enabled unless Apple facilitate bitstreaming DD+ inclusive of Atmos metadata as opposed to sticking with their Dolby MAT way of doing things.

The ideal solution would be if Apple drop Dolby MAT and start using the more conventional DD+ bitstreaming method of convey Atmos from one device to another.
 
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jwsg

Well-known Member
PCM output (MAT with Atmos) only applies to the ATV 4K box because the ATV 4K decodes the DD+ stream it receives. The TV app (or Airplay initiated) would logically output DD+
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
So why is any additional support required if the Apple app is simply using DD+ in order to facilitate Atmos? All the TV would need to do it bitstream the associated DD+ encoded audio that is inclusive of the Atmos metadata. It appears that Apple are having to rework their app in ordr to allow it to access DD+ inclusive of the Atmos metadata in order for the TV to then be able to output it.

Things like this should have been addressed by Apple prior to their initial launch of the app. It isn't rocket science and needs no research or development to make it work. The same is true of Netflix and the way in which they made Atmos available to some TV apps and not others. What is the issue that causes this to be such a difficult thing to implement? I've devices that predate Atmos that have no issue bitstreaming DD+ inclusive of Atmos metadata. Surely anyone developing a streaming service and app would or should be making this possible from day one even if not actually carrying such audio yet? Similar issues are apparent with the BBC's iPlayer which cannot even handle anything more than 2 channel stereo and would require the developers to scrap its current app build and rebuild it from scratch as well as rethink ythe entire iPlayer service's infrastructure in order for users to get access to DD 5.1.

Are all these developers living in a bubble on another planet and why are they being what appears to be purposefully difficult?

The fact that LG and Apple are making it possible to gain access to Atmos via the app shouldn't even be a news item, the feature should have been included to start with. Apple provided access to Atmos encoded content via their service prior to the app being launched on the LG platform so why only address the ability to access it so late in the day?
 
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jwsg

Well-known Member
Atmos want listed as supported on the sticks, or Samsung, but not for technical reasons - simply that Apple likes being in control. This "announcement" comes from LG but lets say its accurate. Apple did increment out features on the ATV 4K, first adding match range and framerate and then Atmos. The ATV app and the IP (codec) etc is all Apple - this isnt on LG at all,

The fact that ATV app is available shoulnt be news either but AVF (and to be fair a lot of sites) publish Press Releases as "News" articles. It was redundant anyway as there were already threads about it when people saw the info elsewhere - but duplication between our threads, and news and review threads is common these days.

AVF needs to look more towards what we're posting here and push back at what manufacturers are saying and doing (or not doing).
 

Broken Hope

Active Member
So why is any additional support required if the Apple app is simply using DD+ in order to facilitate Atmos? All the TV would need to do it bitstream the associated DD+ encoded audio that is inclusive of the Atmos metadata. It appears that Apple are having to rework their app in ordr to allow it to access DD+ inclusive of the Atmos metadata in order for the TV to then be able to output it.

Things like this should have been addressed by Apple prior to their initial launch of the app. It isn't rocket science and needs no research or development to make it work. The same is true of Netflix and the way in which they made Atmos available to some TV apps and not others. What is the issue that causes this to be such a difficult thing to implement? I've devices that predate Atmos that have no issue bitstreaming DD+ inclusive of Atmos metadata. Surely anyone developing a streaming service and app would or should be making this possible from day one even if not actually carrying such audio yet? Similar issues are apparent with the BBC's iPlayer which cannot even handle anything more than 2 channel stereo and would require the developers to scrap its current app build and rebuild it from scratch as well as rethink ythe entire iPlayer service's infrastructure in order for users to get access to DD 5.1.

Are all these developers living in a bubble on another planet and why are they being what appears to be purposefully difficult?

The fact that LG and Apple are making it possible to gain access to Atmos via the app shouldn't even be a news item, the feature should have been included to start with. Apple provided access to Atmos encoded content via their service prior to the app being launched on the LG platform so why only address the ability to access it so late in the day?
Disney+ didn't support Atmos at release either, it does now. I'd assume it's nothing to do with technicalities.
 

antsims

Distinguished Member
So why is any additional support required if the Apple app is simply using DD+ in order to facilitate Atmos? All the TV would need to do it bitstream the associated DD+ encoded audio that is inclusive of the Atmos metadata. It appears that Apple are having to rework their app in ordr to allow it to access DD+ inclusive of the Atmos metadata in order for the TV to then be able to output it.

Things like this should have been addressed by Apple prior to their initial launch of the app. It isn't rocket science and needs no research or development to make it work. The same is true of Netflix and the way in which they made Atmos available to some TV apps and not others. What is the issue that causes this to be such a difficult thing to implement? I've devices that predate Atmos that have no issue bitstreaming DD+ inclusive of Atmos metadata. Surely anyone developing a streaming service and app would or should be making this possible from day one even if not actually carrying such audio yet? Similar issues are apparent with the BBC's iPlayer which cannot even handle anything more than 2 channel stereo and would require the developers to scrap its current app build and rebuild it from scratch as well as rethink ythe entire iPlayer service's infrastructure in order for users to get access to DD 5.1.

Are all these developers living in a bubble on another planet and why are they being what appears to be purposefully difficult?

The fact that LG and Apple are making it possible to gain access to Atmos via the app shouldn't even be a news item, the feature should have been included to start with. Apple provided access to Atmos encoded content via their service prior to the app being launched on the LG platform so why only address the ability to access it so late in the day?
My C9 does pass atmos from Apple TV over arc. I’ve got my ATV4k plugged straight into the tv and I get no issues with atmos over arc to my Samsung hw-n950 soundbar.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Disney added support for Atmos after the app had been developed. Apple included access to Atmos encoded content prior to their app. Apple already supported Atmos, but didn't allow users to access it via the app.
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
My C9 does pass atmos from Apple TV over arc. I’ve got my ATV4k plugged straight into the tv and I get no issues with atmos over arc to my Samsung hw-n950 soundbar.

Your C9 can passthrough DD+ inclusive of Atmos metadata (or indeed TrueHD inc. Atmos metadata if using eARC), but cannot passthrough the Multichannel PCM associated with Dolby MAT the Apple TV uses to convey Atmos metadata. Conventional ARC is restricted to no more than just 2 channels of PCM data and the current implimentation of eARC onboard LG TVs is also unable to convey multichannel PCM. The Apple TV cannot bitstream DD+ or Atmos and LG TVs cannot passthrough multichannel PCM needed to facilitate Dolby MAT. AS things currently stand. you'd need a direct HDMI connection from the ATV to your AV receiver (or soundbar) if wanting to access Atmos encoded audio from the ATV. LG have said that they will be addressing the eARC multichannel LPCM issue sometime later this year though, but you will never ever be able to stream multichannel PCM via conventional ARC.
 
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Clem_Dye

Well-known Member
It’s also annoying that TVs don’t route/pass any of the DTS multichannel codecs. If manufacturers expect punters to use their TVs as HDMI hubs then handling all of the codecs out there should be the norm, not the piecemeal service that we have now.

Clem
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
LG TVs do passthrough and or output DTS formatted audio. Most makes of TV have no issue with handling DTS. I'm not sure as to what the issue you are having or experiencing exactly is though?

You cannot convey HD DTS-HD Master Audio via optical or conventional ARC though, but you cannot convey HD TrueHD or multichannel PCM via ARC or optical either. eARC will allow you to passthrough both HD TRueHD and DTS-HD MA. It should technicallu also facilitate conveying multichannel PCM as well, but LG TVs have an issue with this that LG say they will resolve sometime this year?

It should be noted that if wanting to passthrough HD formats or multichannel PCM then both the TV and the AVR/soundbar would need to be eARC enabled. This is the only way you'd convey such formats from a TV to said AVR or soundbar if passing them through the TV.
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
Is there a list of the actual LG TV models that will be getting the ATV+ app?
If you've a compliant TV then the Apple TV app should be available to download and use on that model. This is on the C9 for example:

snapshot002.jpg




It should also be noted that LG have also indicated that the app will be made available on their 2018 models later this yesr and it isn't just the models arriving this year and those from last year that the app will be available for. I'd surmise that all of last year's models will have access to the app after taling note of what LG have said regarding the models from 2018?


Thie thread here:

is probably a better place to look if wanting info on which models are compliant and or which models have access to the app.
 
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antsims

Distinguished Member
Your C9 can passthrough DD+ inclusive of Atmos metadata (or indeed TrueHD inc. Atmos metadata if using eARC), but cannot passthrough the Multichannel PCM associated with Dolby MAT the Apple TV uses to convey Atmos metadata. Conventional ARC is restricted to no more than just 2 channels of PCM data and the current implimentation of eARC onboard LG TVs is also unable to convey multichannel PCM. The Apple TV cannot bitstream DD+ or Atmos and LG TVs cannot passthrough multichannel PCM needed to facilitate Dolby MAT. AS things currently stand. you'd need a direct HDMI connection from the ATV to your AV receiver (or soundbar) if wanting to access Atmos encoded audio from the ATV. LG have said that they will be addressing the eARC multichannel LPCM issue sometime later this year though, but you will never ever be able to stream multichannel PCM via conventional ARC.
Still sounds great to my ears.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Still sounds great to my ears.
It ain't Atmos (Dolby MAT encoded multicahannel PCM) though if sourceing the audio via an external ATV and then passing it through the TV and out via either ARC, optical or even eARC. The latter of those three will/should however eventually become a possiblity if and when LG get around to rectifying their implimentaion of eARC and giving it the ability to convey multichannel PCM. You'd still need an external AV receiver or soundbar that is also eARC compliant though.

The fact of the matter is that if you are using Dolby MAT as a means by which to convey Atmos metadata then the source is outputting multichannel PCM to your TV and then downmixing it to just 2 channel PCM prior to it being output to your soundbar. What you are experiencing is either stereo PCM or stereo PCM being upmixed by the soundbar.
 
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antsims

Distinguished Member
It ain't Atmos (Dolby MAT encoded multicahannel PCM) though if sourceing the audio via an external ATV and then passing it through the TV and out via either ARC, optical or even eARC. The latter of those three will/should however eventually become a possiblity if and when LG get around to rectifying their implimentaion of eARC and giving it the ability to convey multichannel PCM. You'd still need an external AV receiver or soundbar that is also eARC compliant though.

The fact of the matter is that if you are using Dolby MAT as a means by which to convey Atmos metadata then the source is outputting multichannel PCM to your TV and then downmixing it to just 2 channel PCM prior to it being output to your soundbar. What you are experiencing is either stereo PCM or stereo PCM being upmixed by the soundbar.
Dolby Atmos shows on my soundbar. Sounds like atmos to me.
 

Built To Chill

Well-known Member
It ain't Atmos (Dolby MAT encoded multicahannel PCM) though if sourceing the audio via an external ATV and then passing it through the TV and out via either ARC, optical or even eARC. The latter of those three will/should however eventually become a possiblity if and when LG get around to rectifying their implimentaion of eARC and giving it the ability to convey multichannel PCM. You'd still need an external AV receiver or soundbar that is also eARC compliant though.

The fact of the matter is that if you are using Dolby MAT as a means by which to convey Atmos metadata then the source is outputting multichannel PCM to your TV and then downmixing it to just 2 channel PCM prior to it being output to your soundbar. What you are experiencing is either stereo PCM or stereo PCM being upmixed by the soundbar.
I also found that my Sony AF9 can output Atmos from ATV out over ARC (nb with eARC disabled). I think what’s happening is this: the Apple TV sends Dolby Mat Atmos to the TV, and then the TV converts it to DD+ Atmos to output over ARC.

Note that this only became possible after a very recent update to my TV, which gave it the ability to process Atmos for the built-in speakers. Before this update the Apple TV would only pass Atmos when the TV was operating in eARC mode.

Also just briefly to another of your points - if you enable the developer HUD on an ATV 4K you can see that when playing Atmos content it is decoding a DD+ Atmos stream from Apples content servers (eac3). So it seems straight forward enough that Apple simply choose to share these eac3 streams with the likes of the LG app.
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
Dolby Atmos shows on my soundbar. Sounds like atmos to me.
Whatever it sounds likw. it isn't Atmos because it would be impossible to output multichannel PCM from the ATV and pass it thrpough your TV and out to your soundbar. THe Apple TV uses Dolby MAT and multichannel PCM to output Atmos.

ARC cannot convey anything more than just 2 channels of PCM data.


I also found that my Sony AF9 can output Atmos from ATV out over ARC (nb with eARC disabled). I think what’s happening is this: the Apple TV sends Dolby Mat Atmos to the TV, and then the TV converts it to DD+ Atmos to output over ARC.

Note that this only became possible after a very recent update to my TV, which gave it the ability to process Atmos for the built-in speakers. Before this update the Apple TV would only pass Atmos when the TV was operating in eARC mode.

Also just briefly to another of your points - if you enable the developer HUD on an ATV 4K you can see that when playing Atmos content it is decoding a DD+ Atmos stream from Apples content servers (eac3). So it seems straight forward enough that Apple simply choose to share these eac3 streams with the likes of the LG app.
The TV has no ability to encode multichannel PCM as DD+ and then package Atmos metadata with that DD+ encoded audio.

The Apple TV outputs all Atmos audio as multichannel PCM inclusive of the Atmos metadata and doesn't bitstream DD+ or TrueHD inclusive of Atmos metadata.

It is a well known fact that the Apple TV uses Dolby MAT and that ARC is restricted to no more than just 2 channels of PCM data. AS I've already said, you'd need LG to update their mosr recent eARC enabled TVs so that they'd pass multichannel PCM via eARC in order to be able to passthrough multichannel PCM and or the Dolby MAT signal as output via an Apple TV when configured to output Atmos.

It is not theoretically possible to currently passthrough the Atmos output of an Apple TV if using one directly connected to an LG TV because no LG TV currently has any ability to output more than just 2 channels of PCM data, be that via its optical, its conventional ARC or its eARC digital audio output.
 
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Built To Chill

Well-known Member
The TV has no ability to encode multichannel PCM as DD+ and then package Atmos metadata with that DD+ encoded audio.

The Apple TV outputs all Atmos audio as multichannel PCM inclusive of the Atmos metadata and doesn't bitstream DD+ or TrueHD inclusive of Atmos metadata.

It is a well known fact that the Apple TV uses Dolby MAT and that ARC is restricted to no more than just 2 channels of PCM data. AS I've already said, you'd need LG update their mosr recent eARC enabled TVs so that they'd pass multichannel PCM via eARC in order to be able to passthrough multichannel PCM and or the Dolby MAT signal as output via an Apple TV when configured to output Atmos.
100% I get Atmos out over ARC from an Apple TV, when eARC is set to off on a Sony AF9. And @antsims seem to report the same for an LG C9.

I agree this means it must be coming out as DD+ Atmos - but as I say - how this is happening I don’t know. But I assure you it is happening.

Edit: And to re-iterate - this was not the case before an update last week which added onboard Atmos decoding to the Sony AF9. Notably the C9 also has onboard Atmos decoding for it’s built in speakers.
 
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wezzywebb

Distinguished Member
100% I get Atmos out over ARC from an Apple TV, when eARC is set to off on a Sony AF9. And @antsims seem to report the same for an LG C9.

I agree this means it must be coming out as DD+ Atmos - but as I say - how this is happening I don’t know. But I assure you it is happening.

Edit: And to re-iterate - this was not the case before an update last week which added onboard Atmos decoding to the Sony AF9. Notably the C9 also has onboard Atmos decoding for it’s built in speakers.
Very true mate, you do NOT need eARC for Atmos via Netflix or ATV
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
You do not need eARC for Netflix or Amazon Prime because you can access these via the apps onboard the TV and they both allow the DD+ audio the content is encoded with to be bitstreamed to an external AV receiver or soundbar via conventional ARC. The Apple TV doesn't bitstream DD+ inclusive of the Atmos metadata though and uses Dolby MAT. How are you conveying multichannel PCM via ARC? It cannot convey more than just 2 channels of PCM data.

You cannot currently get Atmos via the Apple TV app on an LG TV and the only way to access such audio would be via the Apple TV device. The device will only facilitate outputting Atmos if you use Dolby MAT to output it as metadata acompanying multichannel PCM data. No LG TV has any anility to currently passthrough multichannel PCM.

Until LG resolve the current inability to convey multichannel PCM via eARC on their TV or until LG update their TVs to allow Atmos to be accessed via the ApplTV app in association with DD+, you cannot as yest access Atmos in association with either the ATV device or the smart app if accessing that audio via any of the LG TV's digital audio outputs.


By the way, I've never said or even suggested that Atmos cannot be output in association with Netflix! This thread has been relating to the Apple TV app and consequently the Apple TV device.
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
Edit: And to re-iterate - this was not the case before an update last week which added onboard Atmos decoding to the Sony AF9. Notably the C9 also has onboard Atmos decoding for it’s built in speakers.
Doesn't have inbuilt decoding for Dolby MAT or TrueHD though and will only result in Atmos in association with DD+. Also note that if the TV decodes the audio then it is handle it and the audio isn'yt being output to anything via any of the digital audio outputs. THe two things have no relevance to one another. What the TV can decode will not effect what it passes through unadulterated. DEcode the Atmos metadata on the TV and the soundbar or an AV receiver will not then be getting that metadata.

Plus the fact this is a thread relating to LG TVs and nothing to do with what Sony have done or are doing. Sony implement (or did) a form of TrueHD decoding onboard some of their TVs. This doesn't mean all TVs can do likewise.
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
Most of what is being suggested or discussed is already discussed elsewhere:


The ATV device doesn't bitstream DD+ or Atmos and uses Dolby MAT. HDMI ARC cannot convey multichannel PCM so an Atmos soundtrack cannot be passed through an LG TV and out via ARC if the ATV uses Dolby MAT.

plex_test_atmos_pcm.jpg

IMG_5186.jpg


Using eARC wouldn't resolve this either. LG TVs that are eARC enabled cannot convey multichannel PCM via that eARC cnnection. This is something LG say they are planning to resolve though.

The Apple TV app will more than likely allow the TV to access Atmos via DD+ encoded audio and this can be easilly bitstreamed to an external soudbar or AV receiver via ARC or eARC.

Apple apparently prefer not facilitating bitstreaming via the Apple TV because not doing so allows them to easilly mix in other sounds and audio created by the device or Siri. This audio would be PCM in nature so the audio it is being mixed into would also need to be PCM in nature. You cannot mix unpackage PCM data into an encoded audio format such as DD or DD+ and it is the same reasoning behind why you'd turn off secondary audio if wanting to bitstream audio from a Blu-ray player. The device has no ability to decode the audio, store the Atmos metadata, mix in the audio it creates add back the Atmos metadata and then rencode the audio as DD+ again prior to outputting it.
 
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Clem_Dye

Well-known Member
@dante01: I don’t know of any TV that will pass DTS multichannel audio (DTS 5.1, DTS ES 6.1, etc) via ARC when fed from an HDMI input. Neither my new Panasonic or LG TVs will pass DTS-MA audio either. Two channel might be a different issue, but I’ve never tried. When I was looking for a new TV that was one of the questions that I asked all of the manufacturers. Samsung users seem very poorly served. Samsung told me that any multichannel audio fed into their TVs via HDMI will only be delivered in stereo on the ARC port. Licencing issues I reckon, as Dolby formats up to DD5.1 have been carried on all of the TVs that I currently own.

eARC is supposedly our friend, but manufacturers seem to be doing it piecemeal, as you mention, not only for multichannel audio but also for things like lip sync.

Clem
 

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