NEWS: Epson announces two new 4K laser projectors

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
Will be no-where near. The LS10000 only got there because of reflective panels (which got it to around 12K) and then the iris, which got it to around 20K (closer to 30K if you managed to be at the right end of the zoom lens). I think numbers have already surfaced for native at around 5000:1 on the LS12000, and a fair bit less on the LS11000 for some reason.

As far as I'm aware these new LS units don't have an adjustable iris, so the native contrast will potentially be a step down vs some of the current Epson units (I think). Of course, has laser dimming. If they've done a good job on that and you get on with it then that will be useful I'm sure.
It might be a good educated guess at 5k:1k but I do question whether Epson released these to reviewers prior to its official launch.

But I agree the chance of these getting the kind of NC of the LS10000/10500 is extremely unlikely.
 

Rickyj at Kalibrate

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
It might be a good educated guess at 5k:1k but I do question whether Epson released these to reviewers prior to its official launch.
The LS12000?
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
The LS12000?
Yeah, there’s information of some sites stating the native contrast of the LS11000 and LS12000 is 2.8K:1 and 4.5K:1 respectively. In your opinion did Epson send these out prior to its launch to get tested?
 

ask4me2

Active Member
With 2.8k:1 and 4.5k:1 you meant native contrast is 2800:1 and 4500:1, quite similar to the TW7400 and TW9400 models?

5k:1k is the equivalent to 5:1 is it not?
 
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Harold88

Member
Tw7400 has under 2000:1

Anyway it's disappointing, really.

I expected a better contrast ratio. If you calibrate TW9400 with iris closed you can get 40-50% better contrast compared to 4500 claimed contrast of this 12000 LS.

And no 3D? Really?
 

3t3p

Active Member
Epson trolling and it's 50,000:1 :D
 

Harold88

Member
Who said they are native 4k?

There are a lot of 3D shift projectors out there, many from Epson so no, shift has nothing to do with the lack of 3D.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
Who said they are native 4k?

There are a lot of 3D shift projectors out there, many from Epson so no, shift has nothing to do with the lack of 3D.
Agreed and even if this new dual axis e-shift didn’t allow 3D I’m sure in the software it could be disabled to allow 3D. I actually think this is the reason Epson aren’t dropping the 9400.
 

Rickyj at Kalibrate

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
Yeah, there’s information of some sites stating the native contrast of the LS11000 and LS12000 is 2.8K:1 and 4.5K:1 respectively. In your opinion did Epson send these out prior to its launch to get tested?

I really don't think there is as many units as you think, especially not for reviewers. There is only 1 in the UK, and it turned up just before the show. They may be estimated figures based on the TW9400 & TW7400, otherwise there would be more information on gamut coverage, black level, lumens etc. I am due to calibrate Epson UK's unit in a couple of weeks, so I will try and get more information then. :smashin:
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
I really don't think there is as many units as you think, especially not for reviewers. There is only 1 in the UK, and it turned up just before the show. They may be estimated figures based on the TW9400 & TW7400, otherwise there would be more information on gamut coverage, black level, lumens etc. I am due to calibrate Epson UK's unit in a couple of weeks, so I will try and get more information then. :smashin:
That’s what I thought, there’s even video discussing them but all they are posting is still images from a screen what looks like the UK launch. I just think all the additional info being posted here and on other forums and websites is pure speculation.
 

Furnace Inferno

Well-known Member
Will be no-where near. The LS10000 only got there because of reflective panels (which got it to around 12K) and then the iris, which got it to around 20K (closer to 30K if you managed to be at the right end of the zoom lens). I think numbers have already surfaced for native at around 5000:1 on the LS12000, and a fair bit less on the LS11000 for some reason.

As far as I'm aware these new LS units don't have an adjustable iris, so the native contrast will potentially be a step down vs some of the current Epson units (I think). Of course, has laser dimming. If they've done a good job on that and you get on with it then that will be useful I'm sure.
The laser dimming on the Sony’s is not highly rated, in fact reading through the US forum it does the exact opposite as black levels aren’t lowered by as much as the light level loss when dimming, reducing contrast. A dynamic iris is still needed to actually increase contrast so I don’t think laser dimming is going to help!

The Epson LS10x00 didn’t have dimming either, just the fade to black option.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
The laser dimming on the Sony’s is not highly rated, in fact reading through the US forum it does the exact opposite as black levels aren’t lowered by as much as the light level loss when dimming, reducing contrast. A dynamic iris is still needed to actually increase contrast so I don’t think laser dimming is going to help!

The Epson LS10x00 didn’t have dimming either, just the fade to black option.
Epson must feel it’s not needed though until Ricky gets his hands on it we can debate and discuss this to death and still be no further forward.
 

Peter Parker

Distinguished Member
The Epson LS10x00 didn’t have dimming either, just the fade to black option.

It did:


With appropriate measurement procedures, we were able to determine the realistic and practical dynamic contrast values of the Epson LS10000: Its dynamic light regulation works with a factor of "x5", so that the calibrated dynamic range (depending on the zoom / static iris) is 75,000: 1 to 100,000: 1 can be increased. In view of the fact that these are actually usable contrast values, these results are no less than excellent.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
It did:


With appropriate measurement procedures, we were able to determine the realistic and practical dynamic contrast values of the Epson LS10000: Its dynamic light regulation works with a factor of "x5", so that the calibrated dynamic range (depending on the zoom / static iris) is 75,000: 1 to 100,000: 1 can be increased. In view of the fact that these are actually usable contrast values, these results are no less than excellent.
Will be interesting to see what the dynamic contrast on these new ones will actually be, of course along with native which is ultimately more important.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Will be interesting to see what the dynamic contrast on these new ones will actually be, of course along with native which is ultimately more important.
Dynamic contrast is likely what it is on TVs mate. Just ruining the image to provide a more contrasty image against artist intent. Basically an option we all turn off.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
Dynamic contrast is likely what it is on TVs mate. Just ruining the image to provide a more contrasty image against artist intent. Basically an option we all turn off.
I personally don’t have an issue with the system on the 9400, well apart from the credits at the end of a movie.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I personally don’t have an issue with the system on the 9400, well apart from the credits at the end of a movie.
Are you confusing Dyanmic contrast with Dynamic Iris?

Dynamic contrast is just ruining an image to provide more 'pop' by messing with the colours.

Dynamic Iris is the iris controlling the blacks to make darker scenes darker; an iris the lasers are missing.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
Are you confusing Dyanmic contrast with Dynamic Iris?

Dynamic contrast is just ruining an image to provide more 'pop' by messing with the colours.

Dynamic Iris is the iris controlling the blacks to make darker scenes darker; an iris the lasers are missing.
Sorry you are right, though isn’t the dynamic Iris increasing the contrast, I’m not sure the term on a TV and projector are the same thing but it’s not thing I’m that knowledgeable on so can say either way.

As for the laser’s dimming system, I honestly don’t know what to expect.
 

3t3p

Active Member
If an iris just reduces light out put and the laser can dim why does it still need an iris?
 

Rickyj at Kalibrate

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
Will be interesting to see what the dynamic contrast on these new ones will actually be, of course along with native which is ultimately more important.

Dynamic contrast is likely what it is on TVs mate. Just ruining the image to provide a more contrasty image against artist intent. Basically an option we all turn off.

Are you confusing Dyanmic contrast with Dynamic Iris?

Dynamic contrast is just ruining an image to provide more 'pop' by messing with the colours.

Dynamic Iris is the iris controlling the blacks to make darker scenes darker; an iris the lasers are missing.

Actually Dynamic contrast on the LS10000 and LS10500 actually related to the modulation of the laser, so is similar to a dynamic iris. No reason why this will different on the LS12000B.
 

jfinnie

Distinguished Member
The Epson LS10x00 didn’t have dimming either, just the fade to black option.
I'm surprised to hear this, as during a couple of demos I was sure I saw it in action - not doing FFTB, but getting tripped up (occasionally) during a scene in Oblivion while dimming.

But it looks like you've got one, so I'm not going to argue the point!
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Actually Dynamic contrast on the LS10000 and LS10500 actually related to the modulation of the laser, so is similar to a dynamic iris. No reason why this will different on the LS12000B.


Btw Ricky, whats the biggest diverse multiformat projector screens you can do? Any chance you can do bigger than 150'' diagonal? 375cm wide?
 

Furnace Inferno

Well-known Member
It did:


With appropriate measurement procedures, we were able to determine the realistic and practical dynamic contrast values of the Epson LS10000: Its dynamic light regulation works with a factor of "x5", so that the calibrated dynamic range (depending on the zoom / static iris) is 75,000: 1 to 100,000: 1 can be increased. In view of the fact that these are actually usable contrast values, these results are no less than excellent.
Interesting, although reading through it, it’s interesting to note if their is something bright on screen it won’t activate which is practically most of the time so wouldn’t have the same issue as the Sony’s but also isn’t doesn’t increase contrast very often. Although on the face of it this is the best way as far as I’m concerned.

I'm surprised to hear this, as during a couple of demos I was sure I saw it in action - not doing FFTB, but getting tripped up (occasionally) during a scene in Oblivion while dimming.

But it looks like you've got one, so I'm not going to argue the point!
It appears I was wrong but as outlined in that report it doesn’t get used very often and a factor of 5 is the same as other laser dimming projectors and still much lower than a dynamic iris which can increase it by 250x + without obvious pumping issues.
 

Rickyj at Kalibrate

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
Btw Ricky, whats the biggest diverse multiformat projector screens you can do? Any chance you can do bigger than 150'' diagonal? 375cm wide?

Unfortunately not. We can provide many screens at over 4m wide, but the multiformat screens max out at around 3m viewable for electric, and 2.8m viewable for TT.
It appears I was wrong but as outlined in that report it doesn’t get used very often and a factor of 5 is the same as other laser dimming projectors and still much lower than a dynamic iris which can increase it by 250x + without obvious pumping issues.

A good auto iris would not normally be that aggressive. 10x or under is more realistic. Too high and you would see pumping.
 

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