NEWS: Electric cars to get a much needed boost

Discussion in 'EV Electric Cars Forum' started by Phil Hinton, Jul 9, 2019.


    1. Stuart Wright

      Stuart Wright
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    2. Delvey

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      Ploughs extra £37 million into charging, yet gets rid of the Plug In Hybrid grant and reduces the EV grant by £1000.
      No point in having a charging network if there are no cars to use said network.
       
    3. LV426

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      ..and (IMO) this network won't have a huge effect on peoples' vehicle choices, if the power costs going on three times a decent domestic tariff - which is
      - typical of many UK rapid networks
      - daylight robbery
      - enough to bring the fuel cost of an EV close to that of an efficient model ICE.

      Whereas, in Norway - country that really means it.........
       
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    4. Delvey

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      Completely agree. The nearest fast charge points to me cost 35p/kWh. That is 7 times the amount octopus charge on their new night rate tariff for EV.
      120 miles would cost £11.50 on the Zoe (depending on speed, weather etc).
      A petrol hybrid would get a similar range, and would take 5 minutes to refuel.
       
    5. nheather

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      Who can afford to do this thanks to their largest export - petroleum ;)

      17% of GDP.

      Cheers,

      Nigel
       
    6. Delvey

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      Well that is not the whole story is it. The UK has previously been a net exporter of oil and gas, and will be an exporter of oil soon.
      The difference is that Norway pretty much kept the oil and gas fields under its own ownership, and created a fund from it to invest in
      The fund
      It could essentially give everyone in Norway 200,00 USD if it sold all its assets.
      Do not forget the average income tax rate in Norway is 40%, and cost of living is generally higher.

      People like to compare the UK to Norway, but they are two very different countries. One has invested in itself significantly, whilst the other has not:D

      They also have cheaper tolls on the motorways for EVs,for example a 166km/100 mile Journey from Oslo to Lillehammer hits you with £8 each way in a diesel, whilst an EV is less than £1.
       
      Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
    7. nheather

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      I was really just joking about the irony that it can afford its green initiatives through the sale of fossil fuels to other countries.

      Cheers,

      Nigel
       
    8. Delvey

      Delvey
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    9. Munkey Boy

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      Clearly the charging infrastructure is important for long distance journeys, but I think I've charged external to my house approximately 3 times in the 9 months I've had my EV (2017 e-Golf). It didn't even cross my mind to check out the tariffs beforehand so cheap is filling the car up though (~£3).

      It's a nice touch that GMEV (Greater Manchester) charging points are free to use, though they are slow at 7KWh.
       
    10. outoftheknow

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      I’m sure Norway will catch up soon though.

      Oh hang on ;)
       
    11. Delvey

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      I would disagree. If you are driving for 3 hours, a quick 45 minute charge is probably a welcome break.
      It is those who cannot charge at home the charging infrastructure is important for. I do not own an EV now, as I cannot charge it at home. Like many others.
       
    12. Bl4ckGryph0n

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      Just shows we are all different. At home charging is no issue for me, we could accommodate 7 cars without making any changes. What we are used to do is drive down to the south of Europe, normally set off around 9pm, drive each for 2 hours and literallly leave the engine running whilst we swap. Having to have a mandatory pause for 45 would mean that the children wake up. Exactly the thing we want to avoid.

      With my parents we did the same thing when growing up.
       
    13. Munkey Boy

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      Sorry, you're quite right. I'd not even considered that there would be EV owners who couldn't charge at home. It's a problem they need to solve (I like the idea of putting charge points in all lamp posts from now on).
       
    14. The Dreamer

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      Is the motorail from Calais still running?

      We used to catch that down to Milan, overnight with the cars on transporters behind - a massive long train, with loads of carriages of couchettes and load of trucks carrying the cars - pulled by two or three engines.

      Always a big adventure for us kids - especially on the way back once, when my younger brother, climbing into the top bunk, accidentally pulled the alarm cord!

      This massive train screeched to an impressive halt in pretty short order. The guard, worked his way through the carriages looking for the pulled alarm cord until he reached the last carriage, where my brother was in tears. He looked down at my brother, and mum, who was comforting him, shrugged his shoulders and said in a heavily accented English, 'French train, Italian railway, too much paperwork!' - wound the cord back into it's hole and off we went again! My brother has dined out on that story for years now!:D
       
    15. Delvey

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      Seems so, but not from Calais to Italy
      Guide to Motorail trains in Europe | Taking your car by train
       
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    16. nheather

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      Probably about a year back I saw a video article about a young man who really wanted to embrace EV technology but hadn’t been able to do so for until recently because he lives in flats. He had finally be able to get an EV but only because his employer had installed some charging points. But he said that his reliance on charging at work made him very reluctant to use it at the weekends in case he was left with insufficient charge to get to work on Monday morning.

      The article also went on to discuss the problems with suburbs with no off road parking. The problem is not as simple as “can I run a lead over the pavement” but needs to recognise that these places are usually park wherever you can so often not outside your house or even close.

      It did also discuss the lamp post idea but warned that it was slow process, councils don’t really have the money to invest, that the technology being considered suitable was only low-powered, so slow and of course you have to find a vacant lamp post - there was also a suggestion that the tariffs would be expensive so questioned how extensively they would be used.

      Cheers,

      Nigel
       
    17. dakang

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      Nice article but a little inaccurate I'm afraid.

      It ends by saying we need cars that charge at rate > 100kW. Well Tesla's Model 3 charges at up to 250kW already (a charge rate of 1000miles per hour with the latest chargers). The current gen Model S&X do 150kW , soon to be upgraded to 250kW.

      Also the Supercharger network is strangely absent from the article, it covers most of the UK already... We've been from Dorset to Inverness (not same trip!) and it's been perfectly fine.

      Thought I'd add the above to ensure everyone getting a fuller picture ;-)
       
    18. IronGiant

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      We know all about Teslas and their Supercharger network as we have a few enthusiasts on here, but thanks for the reminder :thumbsup:
       
    19. Bl4ckGryph0n

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      Not everyone likes a Tesla ;) I, we, really tried to like them, but find it too cramped unless it’s an X, but find that one too ugly. The interior in my opinion is worth about 1/4 of the list price. And the list price is way too expensive. In my opinion the only thing they’ve got going for themselves are the super chargers, but even then realistically anyone would only need that when they exceed the range daily. So that is when one does say in excess of 70K miles per annum. Very few people require that regularly....

      In my opinion.
       
    20. Delvey

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      Woaaaaaahh a certain member will take offence to that, as he compares his X to a top line Merc:D
       
    21. Bl4ckGryph0n

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      We all like different things :) but not a change, not even close...yet its more expensive....
       
    22. domtheone

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      Sums it up really.

      Also, Norway has circa 5 million people. Of those, what %%% need a handout/state aid.

      The UK has circa 70 million. Tens of millions need a handout/state aid.

      This is why we cannot/choose not to invest in ourselves.:D

      To get back on topic:blush:. Would defo consider an Electric car but the price of them is ridiculous (imo) at the moment.

      Once the gross price of the car (not just net after running costs etc) can compete or be lower than petrol/diesel, they'll sell a few more.
       
    23. nheather

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      One of the problems currently, and I admit that it will get better over time, is that the single counter to any argument against EVs is ‘Tesla’.

      That’s fine but the Tesla is out of the price range for most.

      Some could argue that there is danger of a class divide in EVs for a good number of years to come. Think about two of the fundamental requirements of a car owner, “I want to be about to fill my car in X minutes” and “I want to be able to drive Y miles between refills”.

      Now with fossil cars, those requirements can be satisfied for everyone at all price ranges. Sure richer people can afford, newer, more luxurious, more performance but the fundamentals are in reach of everyone.

      Not so for EVs, not now and not for sometime. To get meet those fundamental requirements you have to pay more. We need to get to the point where you can buy a second hand EV capable of fast charging and decent range for a few thousand - how many years is that away - ten or more I would guess.

      Cheers,

      Nigel
       
    24. IronGiant

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      Who? :laugh:
       
    25. IronGiant

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      Teslas are a niche product for people can afford them. They are justifiable if you do huge miles or have deep pockets.

      Just read some of Presstogs threads where he easily runs lesser cars for free, as in zero cost at all.
       
    26. gangzoom

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      Pretty much all the EVs for sale today are fantastic for range/charging compared to a few years ago. I remember talking to a Nissan dealer about the base Leaf in 2015 which DIDN'T have CHADEMO and only 3.3KW charger!!

      EV prices are still high, and with demand out stripping supple will remain so. Equally anyone waiting for a cheap used 200 mile range+ EV will be waiting for a long time.

      One of the reasons combustion cars depreciate is because of running costs, but with an EV those costs are so minimal I think people will be holding on to them for longer.

      Our Tesla has ticked over 26k now, the only maintenance cost to me is £500 for 4 new tyres, the first 'service' isn't due for another 24k!!

      This weekend we did 300 miles going to see both set of grandparents, total cost of fuel from charging at home was £8, if we had taken my wifes car it would have cost £30, an equivalent SUV doing 30mpg close to £60.

      In a Kona/Leaf/Model 3 the trip would have cost even less £5, so why would any family want to sell these cars when their on going costs are so cheap?? We simply cannot stop driving our EV, how a 10 mile commute has turned into close to 15k miles per year is beyond me, off to Harrogate and than London again next few weekends.....Must really stop doing road trips around England, after all owing an EV is uppose to be an inconvenience :).
       
      Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
    27. gangzoom

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      Looks great, though pricey.

      I've been trying to persuade my wife to do a road trip to the lakes of North Italy by car. The trip it self isn't an issue (or charging), more the 11hr of driving with a 3 year old.

      I think we'll stick to France for now, though I have offered the option of everyone else flying and I drive to met them there, but my wife recons thats me taking the easy option of not having to deal with a toddler on a no frills flight :).
       
    28. outoftheknow

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      Sort of- ICE vehicles have a heap of mechanical parts that wear and the engine itself has a limited life due to all engine type things. EV have some parts not of light mites life and a few less mechanical parts. That seems to eb seen as worth more money when used at any point since purchase. Depreciation of 20% as you drive it off the forecourt is what the market decided for ICE. It has nothing to do with actual value of the thing. For EVs that hasn’t happened and second hand prices are higher at all times. Market decides depreciation and it isn’t about running costs alone - many many factors go into the human processes that
      decide a value of a second hand car. In fact I would say it is way down the list for most people.

      We could all decide tomorrow all
      Second hand cars will depreciate at a tax-like e x% a year regardless of human perception of the value of the bits that go into it and costs of things to maintain and run it. Will never happen of course.

      The high value of used EVs is created by the market same as every other marketed thing. Much of it is perceived value so because a maker says the car is worth £xx,xxx new it is perceived to be “premium” and worth that mostly made up figure.
       
      Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
    29. nheather

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      I still think there is a "let they eat cake" attitude on this forum. I don't think it is ill-meant, it is simply because, in general, AVF members have above average earnings/wealth, and I suspect that is especially true of EV forum.

      The point I was trying to make is that there are a lot of people/families that have less than £5,000 to spend on a car. Today, with that, they can still buy something that can be recharged in minutes and have a 300+ mile range. When will the second hard EV market match that? Until it does EV ownership has a class-gap.

      And you do all realise that all this free travelling won't last forever - it is an incentive to encourage people to convert to EV much like the government grants, it needs to be there because EVs are expensive, but when EV prices drop and ownership increases, be in no doubt that the free electricity will disappear.

      Cheers,

      Nigel
       
    30. gangzoom

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      I don't disagree but the 'class gap' is everywhere in society not just EVs. I pay less for my electricity now because I pay by direct debit than when I use to pay via a meter, our mortgage rate is low because we have a large deposit, when I had an accident in my car because I could access some very good professionals who only deal with 'high value' claims I got an amazing service - much better than otherwise. I was given access to a £12k 0% APR credit card for the next 24 months within 12hrs of filling in an application form, this gives me financial freedom to offest savings/investments etc at £0 cost or risk, where as a high street £10k loan over 24 months is actually quite expensive.

      Its not just money though where the inequality lies, time is just as precious if not more, the less time I spend worrying about bills/costs of daily living the more time I have to be more productive/reduce my out goings etc. It becomes a cycle, the less you worry about day to day living costs the more you can focus on generating income, but the opposite is also true, if you lie awake at night worrying about how to pay the next bill (which I've done) your hardly in the state of mind to be productive the next day.

      Society is not geared towards helping close the social gap, proportionally I now spend less of my income on every day essentials like heating/food/bills than when I couldn't afford a car and was getting everywhere on a push bike. If the government wants to really reduce the social divide there is a huge amount that can be done, but a bunch of privileged Oxbridge graduates aren't going to be the ones leading on a redistribution of wealth!!

      Its way way off topic, but the way modern society is setup is inherently flawed if the aim of government is to improve the lives of all their citizens and not just a few.
       
      Last edited: Jul 16, 2019

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