NEWS: Directors Want Reference TV Picture Settings

Discussion in 'General TV Discussions Forum' started by Phil Hinton, Sep 13, 2018.


    1. Aaron Macarthy Beards

      Aaron Macarthy Beards
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    2. Abacus

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      In an ideal world all the above would be fine, however in the real world HC geeks are very few in number, with the vast population wanting a picture that pops, (Faithful to the original is a complete irrelevance to them as the reference setup just looks dull and boring and not what they are looking for) so the manufactures will always make sure they are setup this way out of the box. (HC Geeks will already know how to change the settings)

      It’s similar in the audio world where bass is tops (Whack it up to maximum) with faithful to the original being for the few HI Fi Geeks that are about.

      Bill
       
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    3. Lesmor

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      Hey but hold on a minute people buy a Tv to watch,wait for it
      Tv programs
      Broadcasters are not going to change a whole industry just to satisfy Hollywood

      So you really need more than one reference preset and in a particular order
      Tv broadcast
      Sport broadcast
      Movies broadcast
      Movies absolute reference, to be used with whatever external device is connected

      How do you cover all the different lighting conditions Day and Night?
      if directors insist on accuracy then that is too generic

      When you calibrate a display you can only calibrate a spare HDMI slot
      I have found no way to actually calibrate broadcast channels other than copy settings into the picture menu

      Some will argue there is only one reference standard, no exceptions
      then what about the push to UHD HDR with no defined standard where directors and Tv manufacturers are playing a free for all game
       
    4. Phil Hinton

      Phil Hinton
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      While both replies above are valid, I believe this current push is about the motion interpolation settings being on by default and they want them off by default.

      Colour, white point etc. are important as well and most manufacturers do have reference modes/isfccc modes etc. so we are getting there with choice. But it is an argument I bring up with engineers and manufacturers often, and that is - do away with vivid mode and the defaults where everything is turned on and up to 11. I believe if you actually spend time with people and show them the difference they get it, but that is just not practical for everyone.
       
    5. steviedr

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      Lets hope Danny Tack (Philips) is tuning in!
       
    6. Lesmor

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      I find motion to is the biggest contributor in taking me out of the movie
      blurry panning,judder and loss of detail just does my nut in
      If thats whats intended then they can keep it

      24fps is just an excuse
      they know it is not fit for purpose and changing has been under discussion for decades but no-one seems prepared to grasp this nettle

      Andy
       
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    7. Phil Hinton

      Phil Hinton
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      Andy,
      24fps is far from an excuse and it is supposed to have some motion blur, it's what gives it the look of film and what the creator is looking for. We have seen that 48fps doesn't work for audiences or creatives and that the technology hasn't been adopted because it doesn't fit with what the directors want. I understand that you might personally find that annoying, but that is not the case for the majority of viewers. In your case, there are motion settings that can slightly reduce the issues you see, without adding the soap opera effect.
       
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    8. HMTB

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      The thing I found very distracting initially was what I think was LCD motion blur which I had never noticed in about 7-8 years of plasma tv. When I got my Panasonic LCD last year, it was a real shock to the system - i couldn't stand it. I found it very blurry in motion (2 tvs, same model), so i had to muck around with IFC and BFI to try and get it to look ok and even with that it never felt right to me - either too much blur or SOE.

      Now I have a Sony LCD (for over a year) and the motion is much better to me - I still opt to add some processing (Custom with Smooth on 1 OR 0 with Clear (BFI) on Max). I spent the most time with the former but yesterday switched to the latter which I find helps with action scenes. I don't like the look of SOE on films, so avoid aggressive settings.

      What is interesting to me is that I have never found motion to be a distraction or problem before, whether on my old Panasonic portable dvd player with LCD screen, Macbook Pro, iPad, iPhone and I'm pretty sure all those were LCD screens. Perhaps it was screen size but I never used to play with the settings whereas with TVs I do seem to need to.

      To conclude, I suppose what I find frustrating is not knowing if the blur is meant to be there on the tv or whether it's the tv causing it. If it's the latter, then clearly that's not a director's intention either.

      EDIT: banding, dirty screen effect, backlight bleed are also equally not part of a director's vision - manufacturers should sort these issues out too, perhaps before launching 8k tvs....
       
      Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
    9. Tim2049

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      I love the soap opera effect. Cannot stand any form of judder, however 'wrong' that makes me.

      For this to come from Nolan is a little rich in my opinion. Most of his work looks sub-standard on 4k and he personally supervised the transfers. If he's trying to sound like an authority on the subject perhaps he should ensure his own standards are more consistent...
       
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    10. steviedr

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      I was blown away by Nolans Dunkirk on UHD, some scenes I'd say are reference and on an audible front, even without Atmos, it was so immersive, so I think he knows what he is doing.
       
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    11. BrightonChris

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      Until recently, I was right there with you. 24fps was just the cheapest they could get away with. But I watched Billy Lynns at 60fps, and it was horrible. I couldn't actually finish it it was so bad.
       
    12. HMTB

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      I remember watching Public Enemies (Michael Mann film) at the cinema and that looked terrible to me. Not sure what the frame rate was, but I hated it.
       
    13. scrowe

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      I think it's an exaggerated issue, personally. Most Apps/Devices for viewing movies don't run at 24Hz for movies, nor does Sky, nor does Freeview. A lot of DVD players for years didn't support 24Hz playback, or it was off in default settings. This surely only applies to BD or UHD disk playback in general use. I guess a lot of the newer devices and their Amazon/Netflix implementation is improving with 24Hz playback for movies, but I haven't heard Sky claiming to support this in the future, we can't even get HDR? And from what I hear the cable companies in the US are even worse?
       
    14. encaser

      encaser
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      That's bit of a bold statement, considering I'd argue that the majority use motion 'enhancements' and not the other way around because they want to and prefer it. When you look on forums, this included, folk are always asking for more and not less ways of reducing blur/judder and many appear willing to trade on that.
      It's more the videophiles and the like on here that are prepared to go native!
      And I'd wager that were there a study of LCD, in particular, and OLED owners out there, the majority of the public would be employing them and would tell you they were perfectly happy as is. I'd imagine trying to teach the public that blur and judder were good for filmic viewing and meant to be there would be a thankless task.
       
    15. AndretheTVguy

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      TV Manufacturers will produce what sells ultimately, Panasonic have been pushing the 'Director's Vision' and reference presets for like 4 years now and where has it got them?
       
    16. dms

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      Big fat +1. I am extremely sensitive to motion judder and it takes me straight out of the movie and into a rage about why films should be filmed at 60fps (if there is anyone in the room to listen).

      I know some directors have been cited as dancing around the issue and trying to film with pans which don't cause the issue but that's working with a limitation which frankly we don't need to be facing!
       
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    17. dms

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      I've read the reviews and so haven't watched it as I don't feel I'm interested in the film. As someone who loves his 120+ fps in games and would like to see 60fps in films I guess I should try and watch it sometime ;-) but hopefully a more interesting 60fps film will come out!
       
    18. richardsim7

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      Here's a good video about 24fps:
      A Defense of 24 FPS and Why It's Here to...
       
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    19. BrightonChris

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      The fact the film is terrible probably didn't help to be fair.
       
    20. Tim2049

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      There were indeed some great shots, but the aspect ratio changing every few minutes got really, really annoying for me..

      Few blurry bits too...

      Ps. I thought the film was absolute crap as well actually. That arguably lessened my objectivity.. (!)
       
      Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
    21. HeadBanger

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      Why would a director go to painstaking lengths to light and shoot a scene and then want to deliberately add introduce motion blur/judder which is no way natural at all? I also find it distracting - more so at the cinema as the picture is so much bigger. Once you are distracted you are effectively 'taken out' of the film which is surely not what the directors want - they want you immersed in their work?

      Until we get higher frame rates then interpolation will continue to be implemented. I agree that some forms are better than others and some can look absolutely horrible.

      If 48fps doesn't 'work' (really?) does it need to be even higher - 60fps?

      HB
       
    22. steviedr

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      The problem with the motion interps is while its looks fantastic for the first 5 mins (as its so realistic) because its so alien looking, it quickly looks fake and when fake, takes you out of the film.
      I put on La La Land as a test on my new oled not realising all the gubbons had been turned on and it was a wow moment, but then it was so real looking my mind rejected it and it brought me out of the film.
      yeah multi aspect ratios especially for those with fixed size projector screens is a real pain as it spills over the edge (unless you have masking both physical and inbuilt).
       
      Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
    23. mike7

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      24fps is a legacy from the days when soundtrack on film was first introduced. Prior to that the frame rate had been somewhat less and often varied from one film maker to another. Early cinema projectors were often hand cranked so the speed depended on the operator. It was agreed that 24fps was the minimum speed to get reasonable working sound with the 'new' technology. It has remained in place as 'standard' ever since. It is ridiculous that we still have a standard that is rooted in technology that appeared around 1930!
       
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    24. themovierooms

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      I believe this was one, if not the first live action film from Hollywood to be shot entirely digitally which had something to do with the finished presentation of it. I remember myself being disillusioned with this film as it was a period piece and it looked too clean and "modern" to be convincing.
       
    25. JH4

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      Just as an aside to the frame rate issue, has anyone else noticed the irritating way some broadcast programmes wind the colour up - particularly the green colour of grass - most noticeably on holiday and property progs. I know it's not just my TV setting, since film of correct coloured grass looks just fine. ( Rant over.. ! )
       
    26. Lesmor

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      Yeah and to add to my rant what is it with the directors use of "Lens Flare" ?
      when I first saw it I thought I had been sent a dodgy disc

      Andy
       
    27. BrightonChris

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      I've noticed that, and it's invariably on terribly compressed content so it looks blocky and garish. Awful. Guess the stay at home mums demographic like it.
       
    28. Phil Hinton

      Phil Hinton
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      Did you watch the video above? It's interesting. ;)
       
    29. giggsy1950

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      I think a set being pre-calibrated in the factory is a good idea. I know some monitors are. Will this give manufacturers the ability to raise the price of screens moving forward though?
       
    30. crabby09

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      Considering how smart these sets are... wouldn't it be nice if they adjusted their settings to the required setting automatically when a certain input is received? So, as default, when it get a 24fps feed it automatically goes to "reference cinema mode" and when it's playing a 60fps is goes to "telly mode". Obviously end user can change these settings, but wouldn't that alleviate most of both camps issues?
       
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