NEWS: Denon, Marantz and Yamaha AV receivers hit by HDMI 2.1 bug

whitehart

Well-known Member
Innovation in AVRs starts with real swappable PC motherboards, in additiona to HDMI board, like this one on Trinnov Altitude, with full I/O, multithreaded CPU inside, RAM and speedy USB. It's a premium solution at the moment, but it shows pioneering leadership and direction of travel towards integration with PC ecosystem. In a few years, PC motherboards will become more common on receivers and cheaper. That is another step towards DisplayPort on receivers.

3115256

In this interview, Jon Herron from Trinnov said that his company will make one hardware upgrade for current owners to full HDMI 2.1 board with all ports 48 Gbps, once the chipset is ready (~1 hour 10 min). Interview with Jon Herron
I really hope we dont get display port only AVR's
 

TechEnthu

Member
I really hope we dont get display port only AVR's
Why not? Would there be any issues we are not aware of? PC motherboards happily offer both interfaces and allow consumers a choice for connectivity. For example, DisplayPort for monitor and HDMI port for TV or another monitor.
 

whitehart

Well-known Member
Why not? Would there be any issues we are not aware of? PC motherboards happily offer both interfaces and allow consumers a choice for connectivity. For example, DisplayPort for monitor and HDMI port for TV or another monitor.
How many devices do you have that connect to your current AVR have the option for Displayport?
 

TechEnthu

Member
How many devices do you have that connect to your current AVR have the option for Displayport?
Two PCs and laptop. There will be NUC later on this summer and PC home theatre server with DP port. Let's say 4-5 devices. Monitors are obviously left out of AVR loop, as AVRs are not yet capable of dealing well with graphics. TV is the only display device in my place that does not have DP.
 

TechEnthu

Member
HDMI-only board on AVRs is a stubborn display dinosaur that does not want to evolve in modern home media settings and become better integrated. It's not surprising that several companies went out of business, as they were not able to adapt to changing landscape of home entertainment.
 

whitehart

Well-known Member
Two PCs and laptop. There will be NUC later on this summer and PC home theatre server with DP port. Let's say 4-5 devices. Monitors are obviously left out of AVR loop, as AVRs are not yet capable of dealing well with graphics. TV is the only display device in my place that does not have DP.
Classic examples there, all PC's connecting to your AVR, its only PC's at the moment with displayport I have 1 PC connected to my AVR - but my NVidia shield pro 2019 is my main device for watching stuff - PC is for gaming and websites
 
Last edited:

TechEnthu

Member
Classic examples there, all PC's connecting to your AVR, its only PC's at the moment with displayport I have 1 PC connected to my AVR - but my NVidia shield pro 2019 is my main device for watching stuff - PC is for gaming and websites
Exactly, classic examples that AVR companies are blind to attend to. PC monitor sales has globally increased to ~140 million units last year, whereas for TVs it was flat ~200 million for a few years now. Ignore that trend and their AVRs will not be well integrated as media hub, with HDMI-only approach.

Dongles and media streamers are fine; easily connected to TVs or AVRs' HDMI ports. No issues there.

I wrote emails to motherboard companies too, asking them to enable in BIOS separate toggles for HDMI port; toggles that would turn on/off audio and video separately, so that HDMI mux chip does not send clone screen through HDMI port to AVRs. It's clumsy and annoying even when we use HDMI port on PC to connect audio to AVR, while avoiding it like a hell for monitors. Silly from the point of view of integration.

Also, it's not fortunate when there is a mind-set of "PC is for gaming and websites". Where does that come from? There are hundreds of millions of users who have desktop or mobile PC and who are not gamers. And equally similar number use phones for browsing websites. It's impossible to box and label users based on one or two devices they use. PC-based entertainment (reading, watching, listening, playing, creating, AV processing, communicating, searching, programming, etc.) is rapidly growing in comparison to saturated TV-based entertainment. PC usage is so diverse, that any idea of reducing PC users to gaming and websites is nonsense.

Just to bury the myth of PC users "gaming and browsing" once and for all, here is a simple graph showing some of activities people do on PCs and tablets. Gaming is not even a dominant activity.
image1.png
 
Last edited:

whitehart

Well-known Member
going wildly off topic here, either way i prefer HDMI, it can do everything that displayport can and its more mainstream
 

TechEnthu

Member
either way i prefer HDMI
There is nothing wrong in having preferences, but it's not about your personal preferences. It's about giving consumers more choices, to better fit their home theatre configurations. Would you not support more choice for everyone?
 

alebonau

Distinguished Member
not everyone wants PC gear.... ps I appreciate where this argument has gone from plug in PC still cards and motherboards and such.... but this is something most companies are doing already id suggest.

my last two av processors owned in 13 years from denon & marantz have had major hard ware and software upgrates in their life cycle to keep upto speed. the first had 3 daughter boards replaced. the 2nd a hdmi board to accept 4k uhd... cost of the first was significant but still about 10% of cost of the original purchase (which was a lot! ) the second quite affordable in $372...

there comes a time though where its no longer viable to replace boards... ie the whole platform has run its coarse and a new ground up design is needed....this happens with pcs as well.... and its cheaper easier to just move on the lot and start again..

the first pre processor for instance took me through some 8-10 years and after that... technology had moved on so much over that period i just bought a new processor. the second one took me through 5 years and to be honest it would still be totally fine now...it was just lacking in speaker support and processing... something not conceived at time of its inception.... so i upgraded... will the current processor i have in the av8805 take me through many more years ? in current incarnation (without hdmi 2.1 update) i suspect it still can. once its had the hdmi 2.1 upgrade which is due will it continue on ... suspect it will.

but i totally accept there will be a point it will have to be replaced ...just depends on my needs vs what available ... i dont expect the maker to keep supporting it with updates for forever and a day...

with the av8805 i am curious what the hdmi 2.1 upgrade will indeed bring... even though i have no intent in current times at least to utilise any of it ...but still i do wonder... i think its a good think sound united has kept hdmi 2.1 in current incarnation away from their flagship processor ... no need to mess it up given its rock solid nature as it is :)
 

TechEnthu

Member
not everyone wants PC gear.... ps I appreciate where this argument has gone from plug in PC still cards and motherboards and such.... but this is something most companies are doing already id suggest.
I cannot agree more with everything what you said in your entire post. Nicely portrayed lifecycle of devices. I also kept several of my devices, with upgrades, for 6-8 years. That's how it should be with good quality devices - a degree of modularity that brings longevity until a major AV shift in standards and tech. One of those shifts is happening now, with HDMI 2.1 and changing nature of home entertainment configurations, where TV is not a central 'holy grail' any more for many consumers, including myself.

The issue here is giving consumers more choice in terms of novel interfaces on new AVRs, an innovation, or evolution if you will, still waiting to happen in the mainstream. As we transition from TV-based entertainment, governed by HDMI-only boards on AVRs, to shared market with PC-based entertainment, new ports on back panel are needed to address this rapidly growing consumer segment. This segment wants to keep/purchase AVRs that are well integrated with their home gear; AVRs that offer more than HDMI ports. It's that simple. PC monitor sales has globally increased to ~140 million units last year, whereas for TVs it was ~200 million for a few years now. More than 300 million desktop and laptop PCs were sold last year too. It's a huge market and numbers alone speak miles about the shift that is happening.

I just want to stress out again, for the sake of clarity, that gamers are decisively a minority of PC users. PC users also enjoy good quality audio-video experience, like anyone else, and often do not have a TV as dominant component in their home set-up, but have one or two monitors. That's all. Change is needed not for gamers, but for entire PC world, in which gamers would also benefit from it.

One or two in/out DisplayPort or USB4 with video tunneling are needed on some new AVR models, so that PC devices could also benefit from pass-through and have AVR as media hub, without being forced to route video connections around AVR. I am not saying that entire AVR line-up needs to adopt such ports, but at least one or two models. That's not a big ask, as companies usually have 4-6 devices in new line-ups. It's about modernisation and giving consumers more choice for connections. Who would be against more choice? Vast majority of PC-based devices have several different ports, are highly modular and users can mix and match connections. AVRs are still more conservative, with HDMI-only approach, and this needs to change in this decade.

The only AV processor I am aware of that offers something new in connectivity, in addition to HDMI-only ports, is MadVR Envy Extreme, which offers one DisplayPort; finally! It won Cedia 2020 award, but it is prohibitively expensive (~$12,000) and it's not an AVR, but it needs amplifier. Essentially, it's a PC with bespoke audio-video solutions that no other AVR currently matches. The reason I am mentioning it is because high-end market often introduces innovations trickling into the mainstream later on, as it was the case with Trinnov. They were the first one to introduce advanced object-based solutions together with Auro 3D, etc. A few years later almost every mainstream AVR had Atmos, DTS:X and, little by little, DTX:X Pro is going to become more available too. They were, and still are, pioneers and leaders settings trends and future directions. Notice that both devices have mini-ITX PC motherboards, for speed and more diverse connectivity. AVR companies already face challenges with demands for better connectivity, so some of them may introduce a small daughterboard or enrich current HDMI board with DisplayPort. We are a few years away from this solution, but it looks innevitable.

There is one thing that confuses me. I cannot understand why would people object to such connectivity innovation, if more happy consumers are definitely going to benefit it. No one will lose with better designed boards. If AVR companies want to penetrate new markets, they cannot remain blind to this simple issue. Give us more different ports, please.

AVR-PC MadVR-Envy.jpeg
 
Last edited:

TechEnthu

Member
HDMI 2.1 chips and boards update:

1. First gen of chips
Panasonic Solutions offered two versions of silicon:
a) Denon/Marantz - one input 40 Gbps port - hardware change imminent due to a bug in the silicon
b) Yamaha lower models-multiple ports-performance unclear until new software; alleged 24 Gbps (8K60 B)
2. Second gen of chips
Analog Devices (attached) & others - Trinnov engineer: chips perform better; unclear how much better?
a) Onkyo/Pioneer/Integra - multiple 40 Gbps and 24 Gbps ports - Q3 2021
b) Steinway Lyngdorf - HDMI 2.1 board upgrade for owners Q3-Q4 2021 (Analog Devices 40 Gbps)
c) Trinnov AV processors - testing 40 Gbps; if happy, release in Q4 2021 or Q1 2022
d) Yamaha high tier models are delayed - swapped first gen for second gen of chips?
3. Third gen of chips - 48 Gbps - in design - due late 2022 or 2023?
a) Trinnov hopes to implement this, if not happy with 2nd gen chips (Cypress Tech. designs boards)
b) others?
 

Attachments

  • Analog Devices 7672.pdf
    62.8 KB · Views: 142

Enex

Standard Member
For the present best case scenario I believe the 24 Gbps is more than enough for a PS5 or Xbox do 4k HDR @ 60fps with 4:4:4 and uncompress audio.
Nice if your tv only have one hdmi 2.1, but still a long way to proper saturate that 48 bandwidth.

But Still no firmware news from Yamaha
 

TechEnthu

Member
For the present best case scenario I believe the 24 Gbps is more than enough for a PS5 or Xbox do 4k HDR @ 60fps with 4:4:4 and uncompress audio.
Current AVRs do not work with XboxX beyond 18 Gbps (HDMI 2.0).

24 Gbps is not enough to take advantage of games with above 60 Hz at 4K HDR 4-2-2 and RGB. PS5 can output 32 Gbps and this is what Denon does offer, minus VRR at the moment.
 

gambit6

Active Member
HDMI 2.1 chips and boards update:

1. First gen of chips
Panasonic Solutions offered two versions of silicon:
a) Denon/Marantz - one input 40 Gbps port - hardware change imminent due to a bug in the silicon
b) Yamaha lower models-multiple ports-performance unclear until new software; alleged 24 Gbps (8K60 B)
2. Second gen of chips
Analog Devices (attached) & others - Trinnov engineer: chips perform better; unclear how much better?
a) Onkyo/Pioneer/Integra - multiple 40 Gbps and 24 Gbps ports - Q3 2021
b) Steinway Lyngdorf - HDMI 2.1 board upgrade for owners Q3-Q4 2021 (Analog Devices 40 Gbps)
c) Trinnov AV processors - testing 40 Gbps; if happy, release in Q4 2021 or Q1 2022
d) Yamaha high tier models are delayed - swapped first gen for second gen of chips?
3. Third gen of chips - 48 Gbps - in design - due late 2022 or 2023?
a) Trinnov hopes to implement this, if not happy with 2nd gen chips (Cypress Tech. designs boards)
b) others?
Have Denon publicly stated the updated AVRs will only have one 2.1 input?
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
The models effected are already in the public domain and were advertised and sold with just one HDMI 8K / 4K/120Hz compliant input (40Gbps).

No, they are unlikely to now change the chipset for a more expensive one that facilitates having more than one such input. New models may have such an addition provided via a differemt chipset, but do not expect to get it in association with the models Denon and Marantz have already launched and that are still currently being retailed.
 
Last edited:

gambit6

Active Member
The models effected are already in the public domain and were advertised and sold with just one HDMI 9K / 4K/120Hz compliant input (40Gbps).

No, they are unlikely to now change the chipset for a more expensive one that facilitates having more than one such input. New models may have such an addition provided via a differemt chipset, but do not expect to get it in association with the models Denon and Marantz have already launched and that are still currently being retailed.
That sucks balls. The implementation of HDMI 2.1 has been a shambles
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
What does the SPK618 Adapter do?

The SPK618 adapter takes an HDMI input signal from the gaming source and delivers the corrected HDMI data to the AVR’s HDMI 2.1 port, thus remedying the error and allowing a 4K/120Hz or 8K signal to pass. The SPK618 adapter will be available for the customers who own an affected AVR and are observing the aforementioned pass-through issue. Current Denon & Marantz AVR users will be asked to update their firmware to ensure the adapter compatibility if they do not have their products set to Auto Update


image.php.jpeg



How do I get hold of the SPK618 Adapter?

Customers who have an affected receiver will not need to ship anything or retrofit their products at home. The low-profile adapter will be provided to customers with the listed AVR models at no cost during the warranty period. Those interested in receiving SPK618 will need to:

1. Go to www.denon.com/hdmiadapter or www.marantz.com/hdmiadapter

2. Fill out the form with the required information.

3. Once received, users will need to update their AVR’s firmware to complete the process.

The adapter will ship starting from the end of May 2021 in Europe.

This process is valid for owners living in the UK, Germany, The Netherlands and France. Customers in other countries can contact the retailer where they bought their eligible product.

 

The latest video from AVForums

Paramount + UK launch: Halo, Star Trek and Beavis, and all the latest 4K + Movie/TV News
Subscribe to our YouTube channel

Latest News

Huawei unveils FreeBuds Pro 2 true wireless earbuds
  • By Ian Collen
  • Published
Sony unveils Inzone gaming brand
  • By Ian Collen
  • Published
Bowers & Wilkins launches Px7 S2 wireless headphones
  • By Ian Collen
  • Published
AVForums Podcast: 27th June 2022
  • By Phil Hinton
  • Published
Movies Podcast: 27th June 2022
  • By Casimir Harlow
  • Published

Full fat HDMI teeshirts

Support AVForums with Patreon

Top Bottom