NEWS: Denon introduces 8K ready AV Receivers as industry's first

UMAR 3:16

Moderator
I came from a 6200 to the 6500 and there was a significant difference between these two units the biggest being AL32 over AL24 which has made a difference. Between the 6400 and the 6500 I think it's what's been dropped rather than added. No FM radio and some legacy connections. The inclusion of Alexa may make a difference to some, not something I would want or worry about.

Audio wise I really can't say, it's unlikely to be as great as the difference between the 6200.
The 6500 also has more stable eARC connection.
 

gibbsy

Moderator
The 6500 also has more stable eARC connection.
Forgot about that. Unfortunately my Panny OLED doesn't have it so it's still a case of 'can your Panny come out to play please' and the answer is usually 'no it's raining'. :(
 

asheashe

Active Member
For those following that thread, Denon have been in touch with the reviewer to resolve it and he has confirmed it was down to his testing setup as his computer wasn't outputting the matching channels which was the cause of the issue. He has closed the thread, amended his review with the channels set up correctly and amended his recommendation to say its top drawer performance.

Goes to show the danger in believing test reviews up front - saw many people say they are cancelling pre-orders etc.
 
D

Deleted member 39241

Guest
For those following that thread, Denon have been in touch with the reviewer to resolve it and he has confirmed it was down to his testing setup as his computer wasn't outputting the matching channels which was the cause of the issue.
Maybe he should sell all that expensive test equipment and pay Denon compensation?
Not quite. The original tests that Amir did were still valid, and unfolded an issue with increased noise, that shouldn't be there. However, it is in a very niche application of the AVR which most users won't encounter. When the test methods were changed, the noise was gone, and the AVR performed very well, happily.

Here is how he explained it:

AVRs have channel mapping to deal with configuration differences between input audio streams and playback capability. You may for example use the AVR with just two speakers for living room sound while playing 7.1 channel Blu-ray content. AVR will then use its internal mapping to mix down the high input channel count to stereo. For reasons that are unknown at this point but is being investigated by Denon engineering, when feeding only two channels to AVR but in 8 channel configuration, and the AVR is configured as just Left and Right speakers, the noise level goes up substantially and there is potential for clipping on maximum level signal.
 

Fillius

Well-known Member
For those following that thread, Denon have been in touch with the reviewer to resolve it and he has confirmed it was down to his testing setup as his computer wasn't outputting the matching channels which was the cause of the issue. He has closed the thread, amended his review with the channels set up correctly and amended his recommendation to say its top drawer performance.

Goes to show the danger in believing test reviews up front - saw many people say they are cancelling pre-orders etc.
It's not quite resolved, there is still an issue with noise/distortion due to channel mapping/downmixing.

It is still being investigated by Denon.

The channel mapping issue has been worked around in the testing to be able to measure the hardware performance without this issue.
 

Thatsnotmynaim

Distinguished Member
Hmm, another test that people jumped on it as gospel, despite being so out of whack with what Denon normally do, their range, investment, R&D etc, but people fiercely arguing it must be true. Reminds me of a witch hunt, they floated, burn them, they must be a witch... :) Anyway people fiercely saying how rubbish it must be as it says it in the the graphs, the graphs don't lie, people cancelled orders, then 2 weeks later it goes from being a bag of manure - "I cannot recommend" to being great - "happy to recommend"!
Testing appears to be inconsistent, hap hazard at best. I'm sure it's 100% not deliberate, but if it heavily & blindly influences peoples behaviour in almost a religious fashion surely it deserves a bit of care, a structured and consistent approach? I read things about other tests like, I didn't test that AV kit with HDMI, at least I don't think I did! Why not and why don't you know, why not just test all the kit thoroughly and in exactly the same and consistent way? Is it too hard, tricky or time consuming to do it consistently when the outcome could hugely influence people and the profit or not of a company.
I prefer the approach of I don't really give a flying flock what a graph says, I just care how it sounds and trust my ears, am I alone here? Do so many people no longer have the ability to listen with their ears, judge performance and make up their mind? It's not hard, just plug it in, press play, sit back and listen! Instead people will dismiss anything unless a graph says it's technically perfect, without even considering listening to it to see how it actually sounds.. Technically measuring good does not automatically equal sonically sounding good, also measuring bad does not mean it sonically sounds bad..
I understand and appreciate what graphs mean, but they need to be done accurately and consistently, but also the graphs are no substitute for how something actually sounds...
 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
For those following that thread, Denon have been in touch with the reviewer to resolve it and he has confirmed it was down to his testing setup as his computer wasn't outputting the matching channels which was the cause of the issue. He has closed the thread, amended his review with the channels set up correctly and amended his recommendation to say its top drawer performance.

Goes to show the danger in believing test reviews up front - saw many people say they are cancelling pre-orders etc.

Results of the fault finding has showed Denon has issue with down mapping of speakers, this should be fixable in firmware.

Testing is good as this wouldn't have been found out otherwise. And fixed. Wondering if issue with arcams avr also with difference between large and small?

It does seem to be issue of hdmi source channel mapping however the avr side doesn't seem to be right either.

Otherwise might as well just buy a emotiva processor heh
 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
For those following that thread, Denon have been in touch with the reviewer to resolve it and he has confirmed it was down to his testing setup as his computer wasn't outputting the matching channels which was the cause of the issue. He has closed the thread, amended his review with the channels set up correctly and amended his recommendation to say its top drawer performance.

Goes to show the danger in believing test reviews up front - saw many people say they are cancelling pre-orders etc.

Results of the fault finding has showed Denon has issue with down mapping of speakers, this should be fixable in firmware.

Testing is good as this wouldn't have been found out otherwise. And fixed. Wondering if issue with arcams avr also with difference between large and small?

It does seem to be issue of hdmi source channel mapping however the avr side doesn't seem to be right either.

Otherwise might as well just buy a emotiva processor heh
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Here's another interesting review:



and here's a graph with analysis of the signal extracted when the setup generates an acoustic emission (squeak): the squeaking frequency is detected using a Fourier transform application:

1-s2.0-S1877056816000797-gr4.jpg







Well there you have it. Draw you own conclusions.
 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member

You're just a random guy with no qualifications running a so-called bass management thread giving so called advice.

Issue been found when selecting two speakers only on Denon avr on multi channel music. Quite common for people using a avr with two speakers (myself included) so at least Denon should provide firmware update to correct this. Amir showed issue with hdmi source under certain conditions as explained in first post on new 4700 reciew

Did better but not as good as 3600.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
And?

I'm not the one posting reviews with false results to tests though am I. Makes no odds as to who I am or what I say if what I'm saying is incorrect.

Give a navvy a shade anf he usually works out how to dig a hole. Give a man a pieve of analytical equipment and you would assume he knows how to use it? I don't care if he is declared a genius, his results were still incorrect.

Besides which, why aren't those interested in this awaiting what DEnon have to say regarding the results they get. Is the gentleman in question better equipped mentally than Denon themselves?


Call me old fashioned, but I'm also perfectly able to listen to an audio device without the aid of a graph.
 
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rccarguy2

Well-known Member
Corrected results. With a issue that has been found out with Denon 4700. Still worse than 3600.

A bug with channel mapping on the Denon

So now you dismiss every thing? So you dismiss modern medicine in entirety when a medical trial doesn't give expected results?
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Again, have Denon confirmed that there is an issue yet?


You keep stating the results posted as being the last word. Were the last set of results the last word as well?


Modern medicine? I don't go to a hifi dealer to get my prescriptions and I'd definitely not go to the Audio Science board for medical advice. Not sure as to what the relevance is or was when suggesting this has anything to do with my medical care?


Are you asking your GP for audio equipment advice? :confused:
 
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Thatsnotmynaim

Distinguished Member
It would be good to give it a bit of time, there is a habit and reoccurring theme of these things being blown up into the end of the world type issue within 2 seconds of a review or something being said as it’s taken as gospel and the only thing that matters for it only to be turned around a week or 2 later, let’s not burn them at the stake just yet...
So what’s been found so far is if you down mix you get worse results, how much and is it audible, I thought someone mentioned 2db? If it’s not audible, whilst it’s not desired, does it really matter that much? I also thought there’s talk of it may be inherent in other AVRs (Arcam..) but it wasn’t picked up before! Maybe it’s a more common thing and been around for a while, but no ones picked up on it before because you can’t hear it. If you can’t hear it and Denon think it’s an issue so they’ll fix it, is it more an inaudible engineering faux par rather than a real world I can hear that issue thing? If so I don’t give a damn.. If you do give a damn for something that’s not audible, stop reading this thread and go and buy something else or go and read lab coat weekly... We really don’t need to blow ever little thing out the water for bugs that are down in the weeds detail, probably inaudible and only occur in a small use case scenario...
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
…go and read lab coat weekly...

They've a pull out suplement this month on how many pockets you need and what you should put in them. There's also some real world test results determining the melting point of a Calypo. :lesson:


I think they've a special on making your own bar graphs from stickle bricks later in the year?
 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
There's a graph on the Yamaha 1080, to show they don't suffer the issue. Not sure if its audible and/or how much, but it does seem like a firmware bug with channel mapping. Doing it another way, sorts out the (32 pin?) Test that is improved a lot. Not sure if that means poor performance in 2.0 channels from multichannel mix, whether pure direct etx

Avr so complex with issues like a minefield.

You should be able to set 2.0 speakers on a avr with no negative consequences. The arcams ideally need to be retested, and checked whether it's down to hdmi 2-7 channel out mapping, or avr remapping.

Good thing Denon spent a few hours conference call with amir, to get to root issue. Whether it's down to amir's testing, Denon issue or combination of settings etc.
 

mtenga

Distinguished Member
Hmm, another test that people jumped on it as gospel, despite being so out of whack with what Denon normally do, their range, investment, R&D etc, but people fiercely arguing it must be true. Reminds me of a witch hunt, they floated, burn them, they must be a witch... :) Anyway people fiercely saying how rubbish it must be as it says it in the the graphs, the graphs don't lie, people cancelled orders, then 2 weeks later it goes from being a bag of manure - "I cannot recommend" to being great - "happy to recommend"!
I wonder if anyone did actually cancel a Pre-order? I would probably have cancelled had Denon come back and said there were significant issues that they would solve via update. But that was not the case.
 

Fillius

Well-known Member
I wonder if anyone did actually cancel a Pre-order? I would probably have cancelled had Denon come back and said there were significant issues that they would solve via update. But that was not the case.
I didn't cancel mine, I didn't see anyone who said they did (I don't think).

Some people had already received their 3700/4700 and didn't want to open the box until it was known if the issue was hardware or not.

I'm currently using an 'untested' Onkyo RZ730. I have no doubt that the X6700 will be an improvement. Even if the X4700 measurements hadn't been re-done, the only way I would be able to know if it was an improvement is by hearing it. It's possible the Onkyo might measure even worse.

What is particularly reassuring is Denon's willingness to work with Amir to get to the bottom of this, regardless of where the issue lay.

I have never owned any Denon products before but they seem to be very highly regarded/recommended. I particularly like that they seem to have kept up with firmware updates on older models, even adding eARC to some which were never promised it. If my X6700 is still receiving significant FW updates in 3+ years time I'll be more than happy.

I demoed KEF R7's with an X8500 before I bought my R5's. I was very impressed with both the sound and features. I had a play about with a few of the settings and used HEOS streaming and it was clear that it was a reliable/stable device. It was a huge contrast to the buggy, unstable network streaming on my Onkyo (Chromecast only works for the first power on after each firmware update, then it disappears until the next! :facepalm:).
 

Fillius

Well-known Member
Does anyone know if the X6700 will support spade connectors on their speaker terminals? I'm guessing the terminals are the same as the X6500.

Space is limited at the back of the receiver in my cabinet, straight banana plugs won't fit. I'm currently using 90° banana plugs, but I'm not sure if they'll fit with the Denon terminals being at the bottom.
 

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