NEWS: Denon and Marantz issue hardware fix for AVR 4K/120 and 8K issue

dante01

Distinguished Member
The problem with Denon and the other mentioned AVCs is that, by using the only HDMI 2.1 available chip at the time means they cannot use 4K/120Hz or 8K/60Hz if the data is uncompressed. It‘s not the Xbox at fault either, as they chose to pass uncompressed data streams out.



It is actually the other way around. The 4K/120Hz output from the XBox Series X is compressed. It is why you don't have this issue with the PS5 due to the fact that it outputs 4K/120Hz as an uncompressed data stream.

HDMI don't force manufacturers to include everything included within the new version specifications. It is why HDMI org dislike manufacturers actually stating HDMI versions and prefer they state capabilities or associated features that the device is able to provide or attain. Most of the new spec is actually asperational and some of it may bever come into use becfore HDMI is once again revised. They have gone further than they usually do though this time around in order tpo try make this version last longer.

Support for DSC 1.2 compression is optional and not mandatory.

Anyway, Sound United never specifically stated that they'd be providing support for both A and B signals so they do have a get out of jail card. Yamaha on the other hand …





What is wrong and very worrying is the fact that these products are churned out year upon year and do not appear to be tested. THere's never been a year were new models haven't exhibited some kind of major issie that is very apparent when the hardware is in use. If the product wasn't ready and couldn't be tested then they simply should of ignored their announced schedule and not launched the products. No one really needed them. It isn't as though they were ventilators!
 
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Joe C

Well-known Member
After ploughing through the 148 posts all I can add is below...
... oh, and regardless of my opinions being right/wrong, I have questions at the end.


As a Chartered IT Engineer, not to be held accountable for the vagaries of the necessarily compromising AV design world, I find the HDMI 2.1 Specification very poor. I’d already read this before commencing this thread and it basically allows for implementations to use compressed and/or uncompressed data streams. So, the Panasonic chip adheres to the spec as it uses compressed.

The problem with Denon and the other mentioned AVCs is that, by using the only HDMI 2.1 available chip at the time means they cannot use 4K/120Hz or 8K/60Hz if the data is uncompressed. It‘s not the Xbox at fault either, as they chose to pass uncompressed data streams out.

So, if the specification is poor, even at fault, can the HDMI ‘consortium‘ be held to account - probably not as not for profit and not a company. The phrase used to explain the issues seen by end users is “device mismatch”, perhaps this now high profile issue will lead to more care with the HDMI standards. The issue with any specification is that they are not tested, just approved by the those that releases it. I‘d guess the next HDMI specification release might say that uncompressed data is only for use in the sink device, e.g. the TV, rather than output from a source device like the Xbox.

Yes, I’m sure most dealers will allow returns for this issue if customers are affected by it, as they will just pass this non-sale onto the manufactures.

My questions, does the Denon ‘fix box‘ take the incoming uncompressed DSC data stream and compress it for the Panasonic chip? If so this should be ‘visually lossless‘ to humans if not mathematically - but is it still true as it’s been uncompressed and the compressed again? Plus, does this add ‘game playing‘ measurable delay?

Im an IT Pro too, and I always RTFM - so I think you’ve got this one wrong unfortunately . Xbox sends compressed streams and that’s the problem.

PS5, RTX 30’s etc all send uncompressed
 

fritzilla

Standard Member
In reviewing settings on my Xbox Series X, there is one that states "Allow YCC 4.2.2"
The text when selected says "This setting allows games & apps to support YCC 4.2.2 encoding. This may solve problems with displaying 4K on some TVs."

I am not sure if this is a new setting or has been there all along. I read somewhere that the problem with 4K 120Hz and 8K 60Hz is not with PS5 and PC video cards because they use 4.2.2 but the Xbox uses 4.4.4. Well, would this check box "fix" the issue for those receivers experiencing issues with the Xbox?
1619985599631.png
 

Joe C

Well-known Member
That’s been there a long time - had that on my previous One X. Advice was always to leave it off
 
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fritzilla

Standard Member
you will find(whether like it or not) sound united actually suggest to plug hdmi 2.1 sources direct to TV...to only use inout on the AVR if run out of inputs on the TV...

how many hdmi 2.1 source do you have ? there is only one device causing the issue at the preset the xbox ...
I have the Xbox Series X and PS5. I imagine new devices that come out with start to support HDMI 2.1. I can see purchasing a UHD player if the Xbox Series X isn't to my liking for 4K movies. But for now, if I get the LG CX I think it has 4 HDMI 2.1 and if I am using two for games and one for eARc that leaves one, which should be enough. Just wish the actual receivers were ready.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
I have the Xbox Series X and PS5. I imagine new devices that come out with start to support HDMI 2.1. I can see purchasing a UHD player if the Xbox Series X isn't to my liking for 4K movies. But for now, if I get the LG CX I think it has 4 HDMI 2.1 and if I am using two for games and one for eARc that leaves one, which should be enough. Just wish the actual receivers were ready.


You'll never see a dedicated UHD player inclusive of HDMI 2.1. Why would they need it? There's never going to be a next gen UHD Blu-ray disc format. You're lucky that you can still get the discs you are getting now. As to other devices, where are they sourceing the content that would require HDMI version 2.1. There is no such content and only a few sources that would even consider it or gind it beneficial. Films aren't going to be remastered in 8K because we are already at the limits of where the process can benefit older content using 4K.

I'd suggest you aren't going to see any new sources for at least another 5 years if ever? TV manufacturers are going to try push 8K TVs down peoples' throats, but you ain't really going to see a difference and there's going to be a genuine lack of native 8K content available.

Note that the current LG TVs have no support what so ever for DTS. You'd not be able to passthrough DTS encoded formats if using an LG CX as an HDMI hub.
 
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Jay53

Active Member
That post linked to on the 'other av forum' was interesting in that its not just 4k/120 on Xbox that's an issue

Other features such as VRR don't work correctly through these amps and if that's the case surely that will continue to affect all devices once enabled. I sure use VRR playing my Xbox and don't think I could go back to fixed rate now :(

Reading elsewhere with VRR enabled the output from an Nvidia 30xx card isn't always stable. I would hope these are issues that can be fixed by firmware but what if they aren't and the chipset is yet again the root of the issue?
 

Joe C

Well-known Member
That post linked to on the 'other av forum' was interesting in that its not just 4k/120 on Xbox that's an issue

Other features such as VRR don't work correctly through these amps and if that's the case surely that will continue to affect all devices once enabled. I sure use VRR playing my Xbox and don't think I could go back to fixed rate now :(

Reading elsewhere with VRR enabled the output from an Nvidia 30xx card isn't always stable. I would hope these are issues that can be fixed by firmware but what if they aren't and the chipset is yet again the root of the issue?
I have a 3090 - can you let me know what the stability issue is please?
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
The hardware deficit with the chipset is its inability to handle or passthrough DSC 1.2 compressed video. Any other issues you are having are software related or issues with the source device and or your display.

Devices not using and outputting DSC 1.2 compressed video are not effected by the chipset's hardware deficit.

Cause: the chipset manufacture didn't create a chipset compliant with what is required for the conveyance of DSC 1.2 compressed video streams.
Reason being: the HDMI spec's state DSC compression is optional and not mandatory.

Whether Sound United had actually specifically requested support is an unknown? You are unlikely to ever find out and I'd suggest certain discussion will have taken place between Sound UNited and Panasonic Solutions.

The XBox series X is currently the only HDMI version 2.1 source to use DSC compression.




It says Boots on the side of buses, but I'd not try buying shoes on one.





There's already a thread on this board and within this forum where all this has been discussed:


I believe it has been covered there in freat detail.
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
I notice the X8500H has vanished from Denon's website. The upgraded X8500HA coming soon?


Denon suggested early this year when initially discussing an upgrade schedule. This was however prior the the HDMI version 2.1 chipsets they'd purchased being found to be deficient. I'd therefore expect Sound United to not impliment that chipset into the X850 and are more than likely now awaiting the availability of a new chipset that doesn't exhibit the issues associated with the deficiate one.

Timescale? Who knows, put I'd not be expecting it anytime soon. It may even be delayed until next yesar?


Sound United and Denon have never given an official date for the upgrade so there'so it is anyones guess as to when one will now become available? You could try asking them? Technically, DEnon have never actually publically advertised that there will be an upgrade for the X8500, they have never used an upgrade option in their publicity, advertising or specs for this model so they could legitimately drop the idea altogether?
 
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mmj

Active Member
Am I right in saying that a PS5 would not need one of these converters when connected to one of the "affected" receivers to output 4k/120?

The PS5 never exhibited the issuies associated with the XBox and outputs 4K/120Hz differently. No, you shouldn't need the adaptor in order to use the PS5, not unless the associated firmware revision does something to the AV receiver that alters how the AV receiver will subsequently handle the video signal from a PS5?

PS5 is actually capped at 32Gbps instead of the 40Gbps it should be capable of, strangely.

According to a hardware teardown I've seen PS5 contains the same (or similar) Panasonic branded Nuvoton chip that is in these impacted receivers, so it's possible that Sony detected the problem early on and just capped its bandwidth. I think it may actually be a problem running at the advertised 40Gbps but there is a lot of damage limitation going on talking about different signals.

I would try to find out how this box works as I wouldn't be surprised if it's just compressing the signal like PS5 does, PS5 outputs 4:2:2 Chroma at 4K/HDR 120fps due to being capped at 32Gbps the question is why is it capped if the chip is 40Gbps capable? Xbox probably has a different (unaffected) HDMI 2.1 chip so Microsoft wouldn't have seen any problem and expected receivers to support the full 40Gbps.

It's worth investigating I think.
 
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mmj

Active Member
I just watched the HDTVTest video above which is interesting and Vincent talks about compressed v uncompressed signals but he doesn't ask the simple question about the big elephant in the room, why is the PS5 which uses the same chip in question capped at 32Gbps 4K/HDR 4:2:2 when it should be able to output 40Gpbs 4K/HDR 4:4:4? for what reason did Sony downgrade the image quality?

I don't have any of these receivers but as a PS5 owner I'm going to be quite annoyed if a future PS5 revision with a revised HDMI 2.1 chip unlocks the full 40Gpbs 4K/HDR 4:4:4.
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
PS5 is actually capped at 32Gbps instead of the 40Gbps it should be capable of, strangely.

According to a hardware teardown I've seen PS5 contains the same (or similar) Panasonic branded Nuvoton chip that is in these impacted receivers, so it's possible that Sony detected the problem early on and just capped its bandwidth. I think it may actually be a problem running at the advertised 40Gbps but there is a lot of damage limitation going on talking about different signals.

I would try to find out how this box works as I wouldn't be surprised if it's just compressing the signal like PS5 does, PS5 outputs 4:2:2 Chroma at 4K/HDR 120fps due to being capped at 32Gbps the question is why is it capped if the chip is 40Gbps capable? Xbox probably has a different (unaffected) HDMI 2.1 chip so Microsoft wouldn't have seen any problem and expected receivers to support the full 40Gbps.

It's worth investigating I think.


The issue has nothing to do with bandwidth.

The issue is caused by the chipset not being able to handle DSC compressed video streams. Support for DSC 1.2 is included in the HDMI version 2.1 spec's, but it's inclusion isn't mandatory. Microsoft are the only manufacturer to so far include support for DSC 1.2 in conjunction with HDMI version 2.1 and their XBox Series X console. This is why there's an issue with being able to convey the XBox's 4K 120Hz output via the effected chipsets devoid of the optional DSC 1.1 support. You cannot add this support via a software revision or firmware update.

The PS5's output is not compressed. The XBox 4K 120Hz output is compressed.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
I don't have any of these receivers but as a PS5 owner I'm going to be quite annoyed if a future PS5 revision with a revised HDMI 2.1 chip unlocks the full 40Gpbs 4K/HDR 4:4:4.


Where are you getting your 12 bit display from?



THe chipset will not be the exact same chipset. Sony will have spec'd it at the bandwidth to cut costs. They've simply requested what they themselves require to fascilitate what the rest of their hardware can achieve.

If the like of LG scrape off 8 Gbps to same costs then why wouldn't Sont lose 16Gbps to do likewise?

You don''t need 42Gbps, not unless you've a 12 bit display.


 
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Jay53

Active Member
Working through this logically if the PS5 has the same Nuvoton chip as these AVRs that are capable of handling a 40Gbs uncompressed signal, then it stands to reason the PS5 should be capable of outputting a 40Gbs signal.

However for reasons unknown it doesn't as the maximum bandwidth possible over its chosen FRL is currently limited to 32Gbs.

Using the the link dante01 provided the chart shows this is up to 4k/120 10bit using either 4:2:0 or 4:2:2. It is not 4k/120 10bit RGB as that requires 40Gbs uncompressed and considering this bug is all about not handing compressed I e. DSC then the PS5 can't be outputting 4k/120 10bit RGB at all?

To me it seems they Sony have capped the PS5 for the time being but that doesn't mean the PS5 can't handle up to 40Gbs maybe at a later point once they unlock other hdmi 2.1 features?

As to only needing it for 12bit I assume there was a 42Gbs typo in the above posts from mmj which is no longer present? 40Gbs is required to receive 4k/120 10bit RGB uncompressed.

Even though the Xbox is equipped with a 40Gbs chip it would appear to use DSC for all 4k/120 output (it would also use FRL for 4k/60 RGB so I assume DSC for that too?) So ironically its probably using a lower bandwidth over FRL than the PS5?

Anyway, we await tests post public availability, but I guess all that is happening with this add-on is that the compressed signal is being converted to uncompressed which given the Xbox can output 4k/120 10bit RGB then I would surmise that it's being converted to an FRL of 40Gbs uncompressed for the AVR to digest.

The fly in the ointment is IF the add on box limits the input bandwidth from the Xbox to enable compatibility I.e. it no longer says 4k/120 10bit RGB is permissable. That would be a backwards step but let's be honest in terms of gaming you would be hard pushed to tell the difference between 4k/120 10bit 4:2:2 and RGB :)
 
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mmj

Active Member
Working through this logically if the PS5 has the same Nuvoton chip as these AVRs that are capable of handling a 40Gbs uncompressed signal, then it stands to reason the PS5 should be capable of outputting a 40Gbs signal.

Exactly, what if it's not a compressed v uncompressed issue but rather 32Gbps v 40Gbps? all of the experts are just swallowing the official line and not even questioning it, when this could possibly lead to massive recalls particularly in the receiver market if this solution (which has taken them 6mths) is just smoke and mirrors.

In terms of PS5, assuming it uses the same chip as these receivers then why wouldn't Sony just make 40Gbps and therefore the full RGB 4:4:4 signal available from day one? for what reason have they chosen to de-activate it and therefore degrade image quality?

Watch Vincent's video again, he says that the RTX3090 connected at 40Gbps 4K/HDR 4:4:4 using the same link method as PS5 but that "the connection was very flakey, frequently leading to a corrupted image".

So, what if Sony realised that the HDMI 2.1 chip was not fit for purpose but didn't want to delay the PS5?

p.s. I never said anything about 42Gbps that's a typo by dante01.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
It is known that the effected chipset(s) was (were) not manufacturered to support DSC (Display Stream Compression). hence the issue you get relative to the XBox. It has nothing to do with bandwidth.

It ain't that hard to fathom. The chipset cannot deal with the DSC compressed 4K 120Hz signals output via the XBox Series X. The XBox Series X is currently the only HDMI version 2.1 equipped device to use DSC. Support for DSC 1.2 is optional and not mandatory. The chipset manufacturer was either not requested to impliment support or misinterpreted what was asked of them?


Anyway, as I've previously said, there's already a well established thread discussing this here:

 
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jleholeho

Active Member
This is true. Gaming aside, most media isn't even 40k60fps, never mind 120fps.

I bought my 4700H in full knowledge of the 2.1 bug, and I own an Xbox Series X. But I simply connect the console directly to the TV and use eARC. My other devices are connected to the AVR, so it's a hybrid approach but it all works fine.

The one scenario I might have seen for needing full HDMI 2.1 support on the AVR is with projectors, where they don't have many HDMI inputs, and even if they did it would be inconvenient to run a bunch of cables backwards and forwards. Except no projector I'm aware of (at least at sensible prices) supports 4k 120fps or 8k 60fps, so again, it doesn't really matter.

Can understand people wanting the latest and greatest for future-proofing, but my take is 4k60 (which doesn't even need 2.1) is going to have a very long lifespan for most types of media.
This is true. Gaming aside, most media isn't even 40k60fps, never mind 120fps.

I bought my 4700H in full knowledge of the 2.1 bug, and I own an Xbox Series X. But I simply connect the console directly to the TV and use eARC. My other devices are connected to the AVR, so it's a hybrid approach but it all works fine.

The one scenario I might have seen for needing full HDMI 2.1 support on the AVR is with projectors, where they don't have many HDMI inputs, and even if they did it would be inconvenient to run a bunch of cables backwards and forwards. Except no projector I'm aware of (at least at sensible prices) supports 4k 120fps or 8k 60fps, so again, it doesn't really matter.

Can understand people wanting the latest and greatest for future-proofing, but my take is 4k60 (which doesn't even need 2.1) is going to have a very long lifespan for most types of media.
Fair enough, unless you have an LG OLED, which doesn’t support DTS:X over eARC…in that case, you won’t help yourself with this solution.
 

Joe C

Well-known Member
Completely forgot to mail Peter Tyson yesterday - have done so just now
 

Fillius

Well-known Member
Completely forgot to mail Peter Tyson yesterday - have done so just now
I forgot too, they have been very quick to respond to my emails in the past so hopefully you will hear back soon.
 

Joe C

Well-known Member
I have a response from Peter Tyson, and a very intriguing one it is too!

Thanks for getting in touch and sorry to hear that the fix isn't acceptable for you.

What we have been informed is that they are now beginning production to have the units pre installed inside the machines so it doesn’t need retro fitting but these wont be released until around September ish.

Providing you still have the original box and packaging for the unit I can certainly offer you any of the following:

  1. Collection for a full refund
  2. If you want to get the adaptor for now, once the new mk2 versions are released, we can arrange an exchange free of charge
  3. We can put your purchase price towards a different product and arrange an exchange for you
If you decide to go for option 2, if you change your mind before the new models arrive, we would be more than happy to still offer a refund for you.

I look forward to hearing from you soon.


If it wasn't for the latest firmware messing up HDMI handshaking again, I'd be very tempted to go with option 2. Now I'm thinking option 1 or 3 - no idea what else to get though!
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
I notice the X8500H has vanished from Denon's website. The upgraded X8500HA coming soon?



See above:


Integrating the adaptor into the AV receivers may allow Denon to go ahead with their plans to upgrade the X8500 models without need of a newer chipset?
 

TributeAle

Active Member
I have a response from Peter Tyson, and a very intriguing one it is too!

Thanks for getting in touch and sorry to hear that the fix isn't acceptable for you.

What we have been informed is that they are now beginning production to have the units pre installed inside the machines so it doesn’t need retro fitting but these wont be released until around September ish.

Providing you still have the original box and packaging for the unit I can certainly offer you any of the following:

  1. Collection for a full refund
  2. If you want to get the adaptor for now, once the new mk2 versions are released, we can arrange an exchange free of charge
  3. We can put your purchase price towards a different product and arrange an exchange for you
If you decide to go for option 2, if you change your mind before the new models arrive, we would be more than happy to still offer a refund for you.

I look forward to hearing from you soon.


If it wasn't for the latest firmware messing up HDMI handshaking again, I'd be very tempted to go with option 2. Now I'm thinking option 1 or 3 - no idea what else to get though!
How long have you had the Denon? Seems a very good list of options considering the number of units they must have sold, both Denon and Marantz, going to cost someone a small fortune!
 

Joe C

Well-known Member
How long have you had the Denon? Seems a very good list of options considering the number of units they must have sold, both Denon and Marantz, going to cost someone a small fortune!

Purchased in late July, arrived late August
 

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