NEWS: ARCAM and JBL Synthesis announce HDMI 2.1 upgrade for AV models

dante01

Distinguished Member
I didn't think 4k/60 10bit 4:4:4 is supported under hdmi 2.0b as it requires more than 18Gbs.

I have a scenario that doesn't quite fit hence looking at a hdmi 2.1 compliant AVR.
and how would this facilitate your HDMI version 2.0 equipped player conveying video that it's HDMI chipset hasn't the ability/bandwidth to handle? The AV receiver merely passes through what the player outputs.

The HDMI version 2.1 support is only relevant when dealing with sources that need it or themselves use HDMI version 2.1.
 

Jay53

Active Member
and how would this facilitate your HDMI version 2.0 equipped player conveying video that it's HDMI chipset hasn't the ability/bandwidth to handle? The AV receiver merely passes through what the player outputs.

The HDMI version 2.1 support is only relevant when dealing with sources that need it or themselves use HDMI version 2.1.

I have an Xbox series X which is capable of outputting both of those resolutions and which the TV can accept?

I have it connected to the TV but that limits audio to what can be delivered over the ARC output on the TV.

i am between a rock and a hard place without an AVR that can handle hdmi 2.1. Don't really want an extra box between AVR and Xbox so might have to wait a bit longer :thumbsup:
 

AndreNewman

Active Member
I'd suggest that you'll never see a UHD player with such abilities or such a film ever being released on disc.
Sadly, I agree.

You may see such content available via streaming services at some point in the future? No time soon though.
No reason why not, I've seen tech demos at trade shows of 120p 4k sports streamed to the internal player in an LG OLED TV. It was a custom firmware but they said the next generation was going to support 120fps as standard, streamed or off air, (so no HDMI involved) if anyone ever bothers to do it. Was a while ago, no trade shows recently!

I suspect Netflix et al could do it to TV Apps on certain TVs any day they want to. The (compressed) bit rates don't even go up that much, supposedly.

Not much call for it though, looks amazing with Tennis, Football and Horse Racing, the only sports I've seen real 120fps footage from, maybe that's where the demand will come.

There will be 120fps footage from the Olympics (if it ever happens), not for general release but I think they plan to broadcast some 8k120p stuff in Japan, now they have that working.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
I believe F1 are or were also looking into 120Hz?

There is a future for 120Hz as far as sports coverage and broadcasting goes, but are the likes of SKY really going to want to spend the kind of money this will require to attract the number of new customers it may attract? You really need the likes of Amazon to get involved, but they can't even decide on which HDR format to support or add full support for Atmos so what are the chances of them digging into their vast monetary resources to buy sports rights and then provide 4K/120Hz coverage?

There's 8K coverage of the Olympics, not here in the UK though.



The BBC of all people actually trialled the streaming of 8K content back in 2012:



The interesting thing about such broadcasts being made available via streaming services is why would you need HDMI version 2.1 to access them? You could simply use an app onboard the TV itself to watch them.
 
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AndreNewman

Active Member
I believe F1 are or were also looking into 120Hz?
They are, I didn't mention it because I haven't seen the test footage.

They were also many years ago theoretically interested in 300fps due to the ability to produce clean 50 and 60 fps material and slo mo from the same source, well except for that pesky fractional 59.94 problem.

There is a future for 120Hz as far as sports coverage and broadcasting goes, but are the likes of SKY really going to want to spend the kind of money this will require to attract the number of new customers it may attract?
Sky may get desperate and see it as a way to differentiate themselves from the streaming services. Although the streaming services could do 120fps (or 100fps for the European market) far more easily than a proper broadcaster like Sky.

It's been mumbled about in various trade forums and Sky are part of all that these days, not just BBC. BBC don't have anybody much left to work on this stuff despite being a big proponent of high frame rate more than ten years ago.

If you think it's hassle getting a HDMI 2.1 48G signal through a domestic AVR and TV or Projector, imagine how much fun it is to get it through the usually 1.5G or 4x3G infrastructure in a broadcast facility! The first NHK 4160p120 cameras used 16 3G HDSDI fibers, not much fun.

At least with IP infrastructure it's a bit easier, kind of, so it might actually happen.

But with BT Sport demoing Rugby at 25p not so long ago I think there's an attitude change needed.

You really need the likes of Amazon to get involved, but they can't even decide on which HDR format to support or add full support for Atmos so what are the chances of them digging into their vast monetary resources to buy sports rights and then provide 4K/120Hz coverage?

Yeah but Amazon might just go "let's do 120p for a laugh" I'll nudge my old flatmate into it, he's involved in that. They are buying up sports rights and then failing to distribute in half the markets they have the rights for, they behave like they are doing it with pocket change "for a laugh".

There's 8K coverage of the Olympics, not here in the UK though.

NHK just go do those sort of things, amazing, I'll try to get a look while I'm there. :)
The BBC of all people actually trialled the streaming of 8K content back in 2012:
Yes it looked completely wonderful, well if you could see past the strobing of the 50Hz lighting.


The interesting thing about such broadcasts being made available via streaming services is why would you need HDMI version 2.1 to access them? You could simply use an app onboard the TV itself to watch them.
Exactly, and that's probably the biggest reason it might actually happen.

The streaming system Amazon bought a couple of years ago can upgrade to 120p without too much grief. There are OB trucks that can do some 120p feeds, it's actually quite common for super slomo cameras to run at 150fps, occasionally 300fps, I get involved in bring those back to the studio on occasion.

I've been shooting all my home video skiing and sailing at 720p119 for many many years, thanks to the BBC R&D guys getting me hooked on HFR, looks great, lovely motion, even just using nasty cmos roll gopros.
 

AndreNewman

Active Member
Back on topic, I wonder if any remaining Arcam bugs are related to the HDMI board?

Might be a chance for them to fix some things along the way with new hardware.

I might still have to find out of there's going to be some old hdmi board AV20's at a nice price.
 

linnasak

Active Member
If the new board gives full matrix switching at 4 2 2 and passes hires audio. Then I can put a Lumagen processor in front of AVR and get its benefits on multiple displays across upto 3 rooms. Then worth the upgrade. I suspect cost will be c. £500 as that was the price of a replacement hdmi board for AV860.

I can clearly see difference between 422 and 420 colour when selected on Apple TV 4K into my Sony vw760.

Kevin
 

alebonau

Well-known Member
They pass, I have both, but at reduced colour subsampling, 4:2:0.
hi it might be worth referring to the chart below, will see the HDR10 spec and what the hdmi 2.0 spec supports for 4k50/60 is at best 4:2:0 so your arcam is doing absolutely nothing wrong :) dont expect any different with the hdmi 2.1 upgrade,


Screen Shot 2021-04-29 at 7.50.42 am.png


as the article says there is no no benefit to upsampling to 4:4:4 if you want to....

"Note that there appears to be some confusion about exactly what is supported in the HDMI specification, even among manufacturers and industry participants. Some people we discussed this article said 4:2:0 was supported at 24/25/30, others said that as of 2.0a 4:2:2 was supported at 10 bit. In the absence of a clear industry wide understanding we will stick to the information published on the HDMI website.

There is no intrinsic benefit to the source upsampling to 4:4:4 or converting to RGB. With respect to UHD and HDMI it is actually beneficial if the conversion to 4:2:2, 4:4:4 and RGB is, as much as possible, left to the display, as this reduces the HDMI bandwidth requirements.

Further reading:

  • Choosing a color space, by Spears & Munsil (note that some of the information for HDMI is out of date, as it was written for 1.4)"

as far as billy lynn...below is what you should see at display end.... hdmi 2.1 is not going to do any better with the 4k uhd format :)

35067907871_6962a7189e_k.jpg
 

AndreNewman

Active Member
as the article says there is no no benefit to upsampling to 4:4:4 if you want to....
Does it say, "unless you use MadVR"? :)


as far as billy lynn...below is what you should see at display end.... hdmi 2.1 is not going to do any better with the 4k uhd format :)

View attachment 1502627
That's the compressed video and audio info, HDMI is carrying the uncompressed video and audio.

There will be a tiny, imperceptible to most, only even possible with extreme hardware & software, (MadVR with very recent GPU), irrelevant to almost all, improvement to chroma quality.

However I'm a fussy B. I work in TV so I've had 30+ years training on how to spot video artefacts, which unfortunately can't be unseen when seen, Ignorance can be bliss, so I'll take any improvement I can get. :)

I'll admit, that any improvement to current media will be non-existent, all 24p stuff or miniscule, 60p stuff.
 

AndreNewman

Active Member
Back to the real question, are there any remaining "issues" with the Arcam AVR10,20,30,40 that are attributed to the HDMI board?

Is it good to get a deal today (if such a deal exists) or wait for the new HDMI board and hope that issue X is fixed. Oh and that there aren't now issues Y and Z and, and, and.
 

Krobar

Well-known Member
Back to the real question, are there any remaining "issues" with the Arcam AVR10,20,30,40 that are attributed to the HDMI board?

Is it good to get a deal today (if such a deal exists) or wait for the new HDMI board and hope that issue X is fixed. Oh and that there aren't now issues Y and Z and, and, and.

Depends what you mean by attributed to the HDMI board, BTW Anthem use an identical HDMI 2.0 board. I have heard one or 2 LG display users complain of EARC issues but it seems to work for other LG users. On the HDMI input side there are some people with AppleTV and Sky box quirks but Shield/Roku/HTPC/Bluray players are problem free.
 

AndreNewman

Active Member
Depends what you mean by attributed to the HDMI board,
well yes, as users we don't really know what issues are caused by what hardware or software and it's unlikely anyone will tell us either. Well maybe if they want to sell some more HDMI board upgrades in a couple of years when the initial rush is over.

BTW Anthem use an identical HDMI 2.0 board.
Useful info, thanks.

The main message I'm getting from the HDMI board announcement is they plan to make and sell this range of AVRs for a few years yet.

I've been following the new Anthem AVR threads too but I'd rather have Dirac than ARC and I'm really quite keen on DLBC despite the current issues.

I have heard one or 2 LG display users complain of EARC issues but it seems to work for other LG users. On the HDMI input side there are some people with AppleTV and Sky box quirks but Shield/Roku/HTPC/Bluray players are problem free.
I'm pretty much 99.9% HTPC, Freesat, AppleTV, with a JVC projector, all the other gear didn't get switched on in years.

I may even feed my AVR from a Vertex2 audio port and then any video related HDMI issues (and upgrades) are irrelevant anyway.

With AppleTV how on earth do you know if the quirk is caused by Apple or Arcam, difficult. I get the impression they are both odd companies that do things in their own ways with little regard for what everyone else is doing.

I found your bug list on the other forum, same login so I'm guessing it's you. Very useful resource, thanks for that.

I'll see if my friendly dealer thinks is "safe to buy an Arcam" yet.
 

Krobar

Well-known Member
well yes, as users we don't really know what issues are caused by what hardware or software and it's unlikely anyone will tell us either. Well maybe if they want to sell some more HDMI board upgrades in a couple of years when the initial rush is over.


Useful info, thanks.

The main message I'm getting from the HDMI board announcement is they plan to make and sell this range of AVRs for a few years yet.

I've been following the new Anthem AVR threads too but I'd rather have Dirac than ARC and I'm really quite keen on DLBC despite the current issues.


I'm pretty much 99.9% HTPC, Freesat, AppleTV, with a JVC projector, all the other gear didn't get switched on in years.

I may even feed my AVR from a Vertex2 audio port and then any video related HDMI issues (and upgrades) are irrelevant anyway.

With AppleTV how on earth do you know if the quirk is caused by Apple or Arcam, difficult. I get the impression they are both odd companies that do things in their own ways with little regard for what everyone else is doing.

I found your bug list on the other forum, same login so I'm guessing it's you. Very useful resource, thanks for that.

I'll see if my friendly dealer thinks is "safe to buy an Arcam" yet.

A few users have reported that moving from 7.1 PCM to 5.1 PCM with Apple TV does not get detected so you end up with silent back speakers when upmixing 5.1; other say it is fine with the current firmware so difficult to say if it is a genuine issue or something related to Applex TV settings. There used to be a generic problem with detection of multichannel PCM channel changes but this was fixed outright for PC and Shield about 6 months ago.

If you're dealer will let you try an Arcam you should know within a couple of days if it works properly for you.
 

AndreNewman

Active Member
A few users have reported that moving from 7.1 PCM to 5.1 PCM with Apple TV does not get detected so you end up with silent back speakers when upmixing 5.1;
Ah that's what that's about, I saw something in passing but didn't know the whole story, thanks.

If you're dealer will let you try an Arcam you should know within a couple of days if it works properly for you.
Maybe, maybe not but he does give me installer prices, can't have everything.
 

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