NEWS: ARCAM and JBL Synthesis announce HDMI 2.1 upgrade for AV models

PC1975

Distinguished Member
This is precisely why I have avoided buying a newer avr for the past few years. Hdmi 2.1 is going to become a standard requirement to get the most out of the next gen games consoles going forward.
 

StefanBFC

Well-known Member
This is precisely why I have avoided buying a newer avr for the past few years. Hdmi 2.1 is going to become a standard requirement to get the most out of the next gen games consoles going forward.

If you also have the tv to support it. Otherwise, it won't make any difference.

Its gonna be an expensive 12 months!!
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
This is precisely why I have avoided buying a newer avr for the past few years. Hdmi 2.1 is going to become a standard requirement to get the most out of the next gen games consoles going forward.


It isn't really a requirement, not unless you are wanting to pass through video that actually needs it. You'd be limited to just games consoles at this point in time or maybe a PC if looking for sources that can output video that would need HDMI version 2.1? Even then, you could just connect such a source directly to the display and then use eARC to pass the audio through and out to an older AV receiver.

I''d realistically never expect to see native 8K film content and I'd not expect to see sports content being broadcast at 4K/120Hz anytime soon.

HDMI version 2.1 is only of any real interest to gamers and even they are a little disappointed by what they get when actually playing games at 4K/120Hz. They have to sacrifice other video features such as ray=tracing in order for the new gen consoles to be able to output games at 120Hz.

If only really inted in home theatre then HDMI version 2.1 is no where close to being a requirement. You'd not actually be able to find a use for it.

The only thing you really need is eARC and this was facilitated on most of the HDMI version 2,0b equipped models predating the launch of the HDMI version 2.1 models.
 
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PC1975

Distinguished Member
It isn't really a requirement, not unless you are wanting to pass through video that actually needs it. You'd be limited to just games consoles at this point in time or maybe a PC if looking for sources that can output video that would need HDMI version 2.1? Even then, you could just connect such a source directly to the display and then use eARC to pass the audio through and out to an older AV receiver.

I''d realistically never expect to see native 8K film content and I'd not expect to see sports content being broadcast at 4K/120Hz anytime soon.

JDMI version 2.1 is only of any real interest to gamers and even they are a little disappointed by what they get when actually playing games at 4K/120Hz. THey have to sacrifice other video features such as ray =tracing in order for the new gen consoles to be able to output games at 120Hz.

If on;y really inted in home theatre then HDMI version 2.1 is no where close to being a requirement. You'd not actually be able to find a use for it.

The only thing you really need is eARC and this was fascilitated on most of the HDMI version 2,0b equipped models predating the launch of the HDMI version 2.1 models.
There's going to be plenty of games that can run at 4k 120hz which will require hdmi 2.1. A lot of indie games will prob run at those settings as well as backwards compat titles and remasters.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
You actually get less impressive graphics if you choose to play the games at 120Hz. A lot of gamers have been put off the idea of a higher frame rate after seeing the difference compared to the same 4K game at 60Hz.





Anyway, is an AV receiver's primary purpose to deal with games? As said, you can simply connect a games console directly to a TV and then use eARC to pass the multichannel PCM audio through to an eARC enabled AVR. THere's no imperative need for HDMI version 2.1 equipped AVRx. Maybe that will change, but I do not see it for at least the next 5 or so years?
 

PC1975

Distinguished Member
You actually get less impressive graphics if you choose to play the games at 120Hz. A lot of gamers have been put off the idea of a higher frame rate after seeing the difference compared to the same 4K game at 60Hz.





Anyway, is an AV receiver's primary purpose to deal with games? As said, you can simply connect a games console directly to a TV and then use eARC to pass the multichannel PCM audio through to an eARC enabled AVR. THere's no imperative need for HDMI version 2.1 equipped AVRx. Maybe that will change, but I do not see it for at least the next 5 or so years?
It's one of its main purposes for many people. We'll just have to agree to disagree because imo you're being far too dismissive of the importance of hdmi 2.1 avrs for next gen gaming. You obviously feel differently and that's fine.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
As said, you don't need to even connect the games console to the AV receiver. Most serious gamers wouldn;t anyway because of the added latency associated with passing the video through the AVR and then out to the display. A lot of serious gamers prefer to connect their consoles directly to the display irrespective of the HDMI version 2.1 issues and or benefits.

Yes, gamers may in some instances apreciate an AV receiver including HDMI version 2.1 support, but gamers are not the primary users of AV receiver. Yes, some content may in future years be more accessible if you've an HDMI version 2.1 equipped AVR, but you are not going to see such things as 4K 120Hz sports coverage from the likes of SKY for some considerable time to come oif ever? You are probably never going to see 8K films or movies with higher than 24 fps frames rates either. The films that have already been released in cinema with such frame rates wheren't well received. The only real benefit that may well be introduced earlier than the aformention could be an open source dynamic HDR format? This is now possible via HDMI version 2.1. There isn't as yet such an HDR format though. Again, you'd neecd thedisplay to be able to handle that format though and you'd still be able to connect the source directly to the compliant display and use eARC to pass the audio through to older AV receivers.
 
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PC1975

Distinguished Member
As said, you don't need to even connect the games console to the AV receiver. Most serious gamers wouldn;t anyway because of the added latency associated with passing the video through the AVR and then out to the display. A lot of serious gamers prefer to connect their consoles directly to the display irrespective of the HDMI version 2.1 issues and or benefits.

Yes, gamers may in some instances apreciate an AV receiver including HDMI version 2.1 support, but gamers are not the primary users of AV receiver. Yes, some content may in future years be more accessible if you've an HDMI version 2.1 equipped AVR, but you are not going to see such things as 4K 120Hz sports coverage from the likes of SKY for some considerable time to come oif ever? You are probably never going to see 8K films or movies with higher than 24 fps frames rates either. The films that have already been released in cinema with such frame rates wheren't well received. The only real benefit that may well be introduced earlier than the aformention could be an open source dynamic HDR format? This is now possible via HDMI version 2.1. There isn't as yet such an HDR format though. Again, you'd neecd thedisplay to be able to handle that format though and you'd still be able to connect the source directly to the compliant display and use eARC to pass the audio through to older AV receivers.
Since when did what is your definition of 'serious gamers' become the defining metric of avr use for gaming. Keep digging those heels in. Meanwhile, I'll get back to living in the real world. Adios.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Sorry, but I'm simply stating the facts as they are.

If you think the inclusion of HDMI version 2.1 onboard AVRs is of greater importance then you are free to state why. As said, you don't even need the AV receiver itself to be equipped with HDMI version 2.1. It is the display's inclusion of it that is of greater importance and you can get away with not having to buy a new AV receive, yet still benefit from what HDMI version 2.1 brings to the table. Those with eARC enabled AV receivers are more than likely going to be able to utilse their AVR for just as long as those who've bought one of the newer first gen HDMI version 2.1 equipped models.

It should also be mentioned that its actually cheaper to connect an HDMI version 2.1 source directly to a display as opposed to having to purchase 2 Ultra HDMI 48Gbps cables. You'd need 2 such cables if connecting the source to the AVR and then the AVR to the display.

I'm not at all sure why it is imperative anyone buy an HDMI version 2.1 equipped AV receiver. expecially id you can simply connect the source directly to the compliant display?


This is precisely why I have avoided buying a newer avr for the past few years. Hdmi 2.1 is going to become a standard requirement to get the most out of the next gen games consoles going forward.

Why is the AV receiver a requirement given what I've said?


Another point that may be of some importance is the fact that most of the HDMI equipped TVs include multiple HDMI 2.1 48 or 40Gbps compliant inputs. My TV for example has 4 such inputsm, 3 if yiou exclode the ARC enable input I've got connected to my eARC compliant HDMI version 2.0b equipped AVR. So I've basically 3 48Gbps fully compliant HDMI version 2.1 inputs at my disposal should I ever need them without ever having to buy an HDMI version 2.1 equipped AVR.


Until a pojnt comes when you cannot get something if usaing an older AVR then the AV receiver's iinclusion of HDMI version 2.1 is not a requirement. That point in time hasn't as yet arrived and isn't likely to for some time to come.
 
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alebonau

Well-known Member
Since when did what is your definition of 'serious gamers' become the defining metric of avr use for gaming. Keep digging those heels in. Meanwhile, I'll get back to living in the real world. Adios.
hi pc, dante is right though... there is actually no need as such to hook any hdmi 2.1 devices to AVR or processor as such. as you can just plug directly into hdmi 2.1 ported display of choice. and then run full bandwidth audio back via earc back to any input on your AVR... just as you would do anyways to get audio out your TV and any apps it has on board....

earc... dispensed with the need to make the AVR/av processor the hub. especially since these things no longer as such process or do anything with the video ... so why pass video through them...

it is also a good move forward since it makes the need to constantly upgrade the avr for hdmi version changes... now you just replace displays and avr can just stay...

This is precisely why I have avoided buying a newer avr for the past few years. Hdmi 2.1 is going to become a standard requirement to get the most out of the next gen games consoles going forward.
PC what is your current AVR ? .... there is a chance no matter what you have ... there will be no need to update as can just use something like the Thenaudio earc SHARC....very affordable device that is a lot cheaper than replacing your AVR...

there is specifically no need for hdmi 2.1 on an AVR as such ....
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
hi pc, dante is right though... there is actually no need as such to hook any hdmi 2.1 devices to AVR or processor as such. as you can just plug directly into hdmi 2.1 ported display of choice. and then run full bandwidth audio back via earc back to any input on your AVR... ...
You'd not ordinarilly be able to run the audio to any input on the AVR and the audio is normally conveyed via the eARC. ARC repurposes the HDMI connection already in existence to convey just audio from the ARC enabled input on the TV to the ARC enabled output on an AV receiver.

As you mentioned the Sharc eARC audio extractor would be needed if wanting to convey the eARC sourced audio to any of the conventional HDMI inputs on an AV receiver. And yes, this does allow those AVRs predating eARC to access the eARC audio and output it from a TV to an AV receiver regular HDMI inputs.
 
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alebonau

Well-known Member
You'd actually not be able to run the audio to any input on the AVR and the audio is conveyed to the eARC enabled HDMI output. ARC repurposes the HDMI connection already in existence to convey just audio from the ARC enabled input on the TV to the ARC enabled output on an AV receiver.
sure :)

still dont really know what the avr was in question... as i suggested back earlier if its anything without earc... well can just use the earc sharc and indeed port full bandwidth audio back to ANY hdmi port on the AVR... the earc sharc acts as the earc enabled port in this case :)
 

markymiles

Distinguished Member
It's still quite convenient to have the AVR/Processor as a Hub for some people. I have one HDMI channeled into the wall from TV to Processor. Rather than mucking about with extra cables, redoing the wall etc, much easier if Devices plug into the processor. I know it's mostly games consoles at the moment, but who knows. Latest Apple TV is 2.1 albeit not using all the features. So you could feasibly have 2/3 HDMI 2.1 devices at the moment if you have both consoles.

And whilst Earc is a solution, it is far from 100% reliable in all cases. Seen lots of people struggling with output or formats.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Yes, if there is a reason then it would be convenience at this point in time. The video switching isn't essentional though.

I've seen more people struggling with the new AV receivers and their implimentation of HDMI than I've seen issues with eARC, but yes, it may not work for everyone given the hardware comboinations and associated conflicts that may arise.

How do you know your intended new AVR hasn't issues with or other than with eARC though? eARC itself is seldom the issue, the issue is ordinarilly the way in which it has been implemented by a manufacturer.
 
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markymiles

Distinguished Member
Yes, if there is a reason then it would be convenience at this point in time. The video switching isn't essentional though.

I've seen more people struggling with the new AV receivers and their implimentation of HDMI than I've seen issues with eARC, but yes, it may not work for everyone given the hardware comboinations and associated conflicts that may arise.

How do you know your intended new AVR hasn't issues with or other than with eARC though? eARC itself is seldom the issue, the issue is ordinarilly the way in which it has been implemented by a manufacturer.

Kind of swings and roundabouts. You can get video issues through an AVR/Processor but rarely audio problems. Or you can get audio issues through eARC and rarely video problems.

I'm not a fan or ARC/eARC so I'll stick with Processor as Hub and will be very happy when a 2.1 board is released.
 

AndreNewman

Active Member
Absolutely essential feature for BOTH Gemini Man AND Billy Lynn's Halftime Walk to output at 4k60 4:4:4 10 bit HDR.

Might mean some discounted AVR20's & 30's while they clear out the old stock, that might be more interesting, well if they fixed the bugs already?
 

alebonau

Well-known Member
Absolutely essential feature for BOTH Gemini Man AND Billy Lynn's Halftime Walk to output at 4k60 4:4:4 10 bit HDR.

Might mean some discounted AVR20's & 30's while they clear out the old stock, that might be more interesting, well if they fixed the bugs already?
really ? that should pass fine on hdmi 2.0 chipset ? i have run both those movies off 4k uhd disc full bandwidth. via my marantz pre pro which is only hdmi 2.0b.. these aren't playing on arcams now ?
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
The UHD release of Gemini Man doesn't need HDMI version 2.1. If they ever release a disc with its native 120Hz frame rate then yes, you'd need HDMI version 2.1, but you'd also need a player that supports that frame rate and also includes HDMI version 2.1. You get the film at 4K 60fps with Dolby Vision via HDMI 2.0 or 2.0b without any need for HDMI version 2.1.

The same is true of Billy Lynn's Halftime Walk.
 

AndreNewman

Active Member
really ? that should pass fine on hdmi 2.0 chipset ? i have run both those movies off 4k uhd disc full bandwidth. via my marantz pre pro which is only hdmi 2.0b.. these aren't playing on arcams now ?
They pass, I have both, but at reduced colour subsampling, 4:2:0.
 

AndreNewman

Active Member
The UHD release of Gemini Man doesn't need HDMI version 2.1. If they ever release a disc with its native 120Hz frame rate then yes, you'd need HDMI version 2.1, but you'd also need a player that supports that frame rate and also includes HDMI version 2.1. You get the film at 4K 60fps with Dolby Vision via HDMI 2.0 or 2.0b without any need for HDMI version 2.1.

The same is true of Billy Lynn's Halftime Walk.
Yes a 120fps release would be excellent to see, well for the technology if not the storyline.

I have a player that can do 120fps, Nvidia GPU, dsplayer and MadVR, just a tiny issue of HDCP and no available media files. ;-)

It was a joke, "well worth upgrading hardware to watch Billy Lynn in 4:4:4 instead of 4:2:0"

And yes I know it's encoded on the disk at 4:2:0
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
by default 2021-04-28 at 15.09.42.png

IN MOVIES AND TV SHOWS​

Now, its importance with smaller text is undeniable, but what about with movies? 4:2:0 subsampling has been an industry standard for a long time now, and it isn't without reason. The benefits of having full color in video are debatable, especially at 4k. It would be tough to recognize the difference between a full 4:4:4 sequence and the same content in 4:2:0.

4:2:0 is almost lossless visually, which is why it can be found used in Blu-ray discs and a lot of modern video cameras. There is virtually no advantage to using 4:4:4 for consuming video content. If anything, it would raise the costs of distribution by far more than its comparative visual impact. This becomes especially true as we move towards 4k and beyond. The higher the resolution and pixel density of future displays, the less apparent subsampling artifacts become.

Conclusion​

Color subsampling is a method of compression that greatly reduces file size and bandwidth requirements with practically no quality loss. Unless you are going to use your TV as a primary PC monitor where lots of text is going to be read, there shouldn't be a need to worry about it. It has no noticeable visual imperfections otherwise and allows you to trade for much better advantages such as 10-bit color depth and HDR. 4:2:0 is essential to modern distribution platforms, and omitting the great bandwidth reduction would have made services such as Netflix and Amazon in 4k far less accessible.





Most video content is only mastered in 4:2:0 anyway.
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
Yes a 120fps release would be excellent to see, well for the technology if not the storyline.


I'd suggest that you'll never see a UHD player with such abilities or such a film ever being released on disc.

You may see such content available via streaming services at some point in the future? No time soon though.
 

Jay53

Active Member
I didn't think 4k/60 10bit 4:4:4 is supported under hdmi 2.0b as it requires more than 18Gbs.

I have a scenario that doesn't quite fit hence looking at a hdmi 2.1 compliant AVR.

My TV 2019 TV has a single hdmi port that accepts 4k/120 10bit 4:2:0 and 4k/60 4:4:4. The remaining three hdmi ports only accept hdmi 2.0b and don't support these two resolutions

In addition the TV does not support eARC so whilst I have my 4k/120 source currently connected to my TV that's not going to give me the audio I could get if connected to an hdmi 2.1 AVR instead.

As to many TVs having multiple hdmi 2.1 inputs LG do but most other mfrs don't, reserving it to their flagship model e.g. Samsung 2021 line up just has the q95a :(
 

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