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newbie sub question

J

jason99

Guest
Hi everyone
Sorry for what may be obvious questions, I am new to this!

Do I need a sub? My fronts are MS908s which claim to go down to 35Hz. My system has no sub, so clearly I am not hearing the LFE channel, but am I missing out? Is the LFE channel repeated in the fronts? If so I should be hearing it assuming my 908s have the same LF response as a typical sub.

Any advice greatly appreciated, Jason99.
 

PJTX100

Distinguished Member
jason99 said:
Hi everyone
Sorry for what may be obvious questions, I am new to this!

Do I need a sub? My fronts are MS908s which claim to go down to 35Hz. My system has no sub, so clearly I am not hearing the LFE channel, but am I missing out? Is the LFE channel repeated in the fronts? If so I should be hearing it assuming my 908s have the same LF response as a typical sub.

Any advice greatly appreciated, Jason99.

If you have a 5.1 AV amp then you will be missing out on low frequencies big time, even if you have the amp set to channel the bass to the main speakers. Even with pure stereo the weight which a good sub adds to the bottom end is significant.

Whether this means you "need" a sub is personal choice. :)

...PJ
 
J

jason99

Guest
Hi PJ
Thanx for the advice, I get the picture :smashin:
Presumably when you write "the amp set to channel the bass to the main speakers" you mean have fronts set to large? I've read that that sends LFE through to the fronts in addition to the normal front signals but not sure if that's true.
Cheers, Jason99.
 

KHCC

Active Member
Mornin'

The manufacturer may quote down to 35Hz but that depends on all kinds of factors!!! they may have got that one in the right size test room with the right equipment with the wind behind them. In real world terms they might go down to 45 or 50Hz and you will be hearing what you perceive as lower bass but the speakers will be producing other notes instead. believe me there is alot of information you are missing, my speakers are quoted down to 20Hz!!! which yes I can produce by putting them in the corner close to the wall, set the amp to one third and turn the bass control to max and yes I can get very deep bass down to 20Hz, but I can't turn them up any further as the cones are at full excursion. This is obviously no good as one third on the dial is just above talking level and in terms of sound quality, it it horrendous with boomy lumpy bass.

Try a sub, you'll love it as it not only will give you deep smooth luscious bass but you can then set your fronts to small, and get better quality from them as the amp won't waste power trying to get them to produce frequencies they can't do very well i.e. bass! it will clean up the mid and treble.

Enjoy
 

GFS AV

Banned
Morning Hayes,

I've read a lot about setting main speakers to small, and have done so since. However, I have the MS Avant 906s which are a true 3-way speaker, and IMO they produce very good bass (to a certain frequency of course). I recently bought an XLS200 which is obviously used for the very low frequencies, and I cant seem to hear a noticeable difference in quality between 'small' and 'large' settings on my Yamaha amp.

As you will know, some main speakers i.e. MS908, have a dedicated sub built in. What would you be better off doing in this instance? I would have though by setting the speakers to small, you would be wasting their subwoofers?
 

KHCC

Active Member
In terms of wasting large drivers on frloorstanders, depending on your rear speakers you can set the amp to put out 50Hz and above for speakers set to small, there fore not wasting the sub as it will then be producing bass not sub bass. Of course the center and rears need to be able to handle 50Hz and above.

In terms of your personal predicament, I would experiment with the sub location, try and put it in a corner with at least one exterior wall and try different orientation of the sub i.e. facing the wall or corner, also have you tried changing the phase on the sub as might be cancelling some bass out from the floorstanders and visa versa.

I would normally recommend to people a 12" sub or above if they have floorstanders.

Hope this helps and you get some sort of result. If not come back to me, I will have to go throught equipment and room size etc...

Regards
 

PJTX100

Distinguished Member
jason99 said:
Hi PJ
Thanx for the advice, I get the picture :smashin:
Presumably when you write "the amp set to channel the bass to the main speakers" you mean have fronts set to large? I've read that that sends LFE through to the fronts in addition to the normal front signals but not sure if that's true.
Cheers, Jason99.

Depends on the amp I think. The Yam amp I have has two settings for this, setting speakers to large is one. Bass Out is the other, allowing bass to be channeled to the mains, the sub, or both...PJ
 
J

jason99

Guest
Hi Hayes

What you say makes sense, I just feel a bit peeved having floorstanders with supposedly dedicated (albeit passive) subs built in. In fact MS used to sell a cinema version (MS502) with built-in amp and presumably a tricker xover. Does anyone know if these did the job?

If I end up with a sub I might as well have bought some small fronts and saved £300.

Additionally I like to listen to music in stereo with no processing (call me old fashioned :) ) so I don't want to have to change speaker set-ups all the time.

Do you think there is any mileage in connecting up a power amp to my receiver sub out and powering the MS908 subs from this?
 

Beobloke

Active Member
As you will know, some main speakers i.e. MS908, have a dedicated sub built in.

Jason,

To clear up a misconception, the side firing driver in the 908's is NOT a subwoofer as such. The speaker is best thought of as a 3 way design that uses a 10" bass driver, 2 x 5.25" midranges and a tweeter, rather than a full range speaker with a subwoofer in the side.

The MS502's are different as they do indeed have a side-firing subwoofer powered by its own dedicated 150W amplifier. The subwoofers in this case have a separate connection to the rest of the speaker and can be run directly from the LFE or ".1" output of a surround sound amp. These are still made by the way!!

Adam.
 
J

jason99

Guest
OK guys I have got the message. I guess I hoped I could do without a sub as (a) I have floorstanders that I hoped would do the job, (b) spanked my budget 2 weeks ago on the 540, centre, rears & cables.
In fact I tried for a Gale 3080 on ebay last night but lost it. Maybe a trip to RS is on the cards tomorrow, my poor wallet.
Never mind, it's only money!
 

GFS AV

Banned
jason99, you mus'nt blow your money on a poor sub when you have decent speakers. Dont buy a Gale, or anything like that. For these speakers, the least I would buy is the MS309, which is a great sub for the money. Yes, this is £220 ish but even if it means waiting till you can afford it, it will be well worth the wait.

Preferably though, try and save a bit more and go for something along the lines of:

BK XLS200 - £279
Velodyne CHT-10R - £350

I have just bought the XLS200 to go with my Mordaunt-Short Avant 906, 905 and 902s, and I can definately recommend this little beast.

The best thing to do is do a search on the XLS200 / Velodyne CHT-10R, and see what fits the bill i.e. if you want a compact sub, the XLS200 is ideal. If space doesnt matter, one of the CHT-R series may be more suitable.

IMO you have to spend at least £200 to get a decent subwoofer.
 
J

jason99

Guest
Hi GFSAV,
Certainly I'd shortlist/demo all those subs, having read a lot of the sub threads on this site.
However I'm pretty skint at the moment - just a poor student, so I'm considering picking up something cheap to use for 6 months or so.
Besides I thought the Gales stacked up reasonably well? They are just older MS's badged up? I was going to try RS to see if they have any of the Gales in their trade counter - can't go wrong for 100 quid, can always flog it on ebay.
I guess ideally I'd go for an MS 309 as it would match the rest of my gear nicely.
 

GFS AV

Banned
ok mate, but always keep in your mind that if you upgrade your sub later on, you will more than likely notice a huge difference in your system. I just assumed you must be able to save up ok, with the knowledge that you have a pair of 908s.
 
J

jason99

Guest
yeah, I used to earn good cash but got laid off. Now I'm at uni for a year, so mustn't spend money! :rolleyes:
Hmm, maybe the ol' redundancy could take another spanking! Spent 700 in the last couple of weeks, might as well make it a grand! :devil:
 

KHCC

Active Member
Mornin'

Have a look in the power buy section. We're selling the last of the original Velodyne CHT range. We have 8" and 10" available, the 10's are £210 for a silver or black. There is very little difference in the performance between the CHT and the new CHT-R range. The new ones have a remote and about 25-30 watts more power, but that's about it. They CHT's are excellant for the original price i.e. 10" - £380 we're selling them for £210.

Just a thought.
 
J

jason99

Guest
I'm digging myself a deeper hole all the time. In an attempt to save some cash I've just picked up a trade counter Gale 3090 from RS, could I possibly go wrong for 100 quid?
Oh dear :rolleyes:
On initial evaluation it is quite nasty. Bass is loud but fluffy, but with no real increase in frequency response. Very disappointing, or is it just that my MS908s are better than I thought?
I'll experiment over the next week with positioning and settings, but unless there is a startling improvement to be had, it's going back!
So, everyone count to three and shout together "We told you so!" :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 

GFS AV

Banned
Jason, the 908s are a £500 pair of speakers. To complement these and the rest of your setup, I would not use anything less than a £200 sub. I would consider anything less as a pointless addition to your system and a waste of money. As said before, there is a huge difference in quality between a £100 and a £250 subwoofer.
 
K

krusty

Guest
i actualy have a velodyne vx10 sub in the classifieds which would have been perfect for you. its a budget version but[ and someone correct me if im wrong] will knock spots of any of richer,s boom boxes.
 

Ian J

Banned
jason99 said:
I'm digging myself a deeper hole all the time. In an attempt to save some cash I've just picked up a trade counter Gale 3090 from RS, could I possibly go wrong for 100 quid?

On initial evaluation it is quite nasty.

So, everyone count to three and shout together "We told you so!" :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

GFS AV said:
jason99, you mus'nt blow your money on a poor sub when you have decent speakers. Dont buy a Gale, or anything like that.

:oops:
 
J

jason99

Guest
Yes, all beat me now. :laugh:
Interestingly, I still tried to apply some science, checking my systems out with a tone generator and my ears (no SPL meter available, however not required)
With my 908s only in stereo, I observed drop off at the published 35Hz, however my room (5.5m x 3.5m) creates a handy resonance at around 31Hz which effectively seems to prop up the whole response down to about 28Hz.
Setting the mains to small and dialing in the sub achieved no increase in bottom end detectable by ear (might have been 1Hz lower) and resulted in a less pleasant sound in the 30-80Hz region, just as prophesised by just about everyone.
Conclusion: The Gale's going back! If I get a sub that will give me substantially lower frequencies then that's something I'll look into another day, but for now my system is staying as a 5.0
 

GFS AV

Banned
For someone who seems quite knowledgeable in subwoofery, I can quite understand why you got the Gale sub in the first place, especially after we told you it would be a mistake :rolleyes:
 

KHCC

Active Member
Mornin'

It's definately not sheided, but Velodyne have never had any reported problems with CRT tv's with the CHT sub's. You would have toi have the sub butted right up against the TV and even then I don't think you would have a problem.

Regards
 

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