Newbie question regarding dubbing from HDD.

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by wolfie1, Dec 18, 2006.

  1. wolfie1

    wolfie1
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    Hi all,

    I have a Panasonic DMR-EH60D HDD recorder. I have had it a while, and have just come to try and dub a 2 hour programme from the HDD to a DVD-R disc to loan to a friend.

    However, in the dubbing setup sequence, the display says that the programme is too long to fit the "destination" (i.e the recording is 2 hours 4 mins long and the disc is "2 hours"). How can I dub this programme, or indeed any programme longer than 2 hours?

    When I bought my disks, they all seemed to be 2 hour disks on display, although there were a couple of double-sided options. Should I have bought the double-sided disks? Does this mean that the disc would need to be turned over?

    Told you I was a newbie!

    Thanks for any help on dubbing.
     
  2. aekostas

    aekostas
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    You need to change the dubbing mode to FR. Unfortunately this means that you will be re-encoding the material, which in principle affects the quality.
     
  3. ROYOLD

    ROYOLD
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    My EH60D will certainly go over the 2 hour limit for an SP HDD recording. On the dubbing screen for a 2 hours recording on SP in the Play List it gives a percentage of around 95%. I have successfully recorded several discs on SP at 2 hours 04 minutes. Maybe you have edited this recording in several different sessions instead of just one continuous session (which causes problems for dubbing).

    If you recode an SP recording to FR then you will only be able to dub in real time.

    A solution maybe to split your recording into two separate sections for high speed recording on two discs. Note though that once you split the recording you will NOT be able to re-combine it.

    I am still surprised that the display is stating its too long.
    Can you not edit the end titles (i.e chop them out to reduce the length?)
     
  4. Gavtech

    Gavtech
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    A few other points:

    As you are obviously not in the habit of doing this the likelihood is that you do not have ' record for high speed dubbing ' enabled [ it's default is off ] ... so you will not be able to high speed dub it under any circumstances.

    It is probably also likely that you are not in the habit of editing... so is it possible that this 2 hour 4 min programme could be shortened to under 2 hours by editing adverts of extraneous material at the beginning or end?

    You use 'partial erase' to do this.

    Once below 2 hours you could then high speed copy ..if it WAS recorded pre-enabled or at SP if not.
     
  5. wolfie1

    wolfie1
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    Thanks everyone for the responses.

    No, I didn't have high speed dubbing enabled - but I have now! To be honest, the speed of dubbing doesn't concern me - I won't be doing it often. And no, the programme hadn't been recorded in "sections", so I will have to use the partial erase function to cut out adverts etc.

    I was just surprised by the fact that it is not possible to dub a programme or movie which is say, 2 1/2 hours long (after all the adverts etc are removed) onto a single disc.

    We are able to record movies onto 4 hour video tapes to watch uninterrupted, why not have 4 hour blank DVDs?

    I am sure someone will cure me of my ignorance!
     
  6. Speedee

    Speedee
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    Hi, I bought a Panasonic EX85 (replacing the E20) on Saturday, and have been reading the book !! So have found this discussion interesting as I have been finding out the same sort of stuff :rolleyes:

    I thought the high speed dubbing sounded great (going to put some VHS stuff onto DVD after using HDD to cut out adverts etc) but have found that stuff recorded NOT in 4:3 will be recorded to DVD at 4:3 only. This I was a bit dismayed at - should I have been :confused:

    I read somewhere that you should try and record to HDD at the same quality (XP/SP/LP {wouldn't want to go any further} ) as you would want to finally record to the DVD you are going to burn, as ReEncoding to a different quality is going to affect the final quality.
    I may do an experiment to see if I can see the effects. :eek:

    Speedee :)
     
  7. maldonian

    maldonian
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    If you dub (copy) at normal speed the material is re-encoded, even if the mode stays the same. So there is no disadvantage in using FR mode if you don't use high speed dubbing, because the material will be re-encoded anyway. The only way to avoid re-encoding during dubbing is to dub at high speed.

    When you select titles to dub at normal speed the recorder sets a slightly lower capacity on the destination disc than it does when high speed dubbing. In other words the recorder does not let you use the full capacity of destination disc. Presumably this provides enough headroom for any change in size caused by re-encoding.

    When you select titles to dub at high speed the recorder knows the exact size that is going to be recorded on the destination disc (because it will be an exact copy of the source). So the recorder lets you use the full capacity of the destination disc. If you look at the sizes of the source titles in MB you can tell exactly whether your selections will fit the destination before you select them. The capacity of a blank DVD-R is 4409 MB, and a blank DVD-RAM is 4343 MB (according to my E85, when high speed dubbing).

    The displayed available recording time is a bit misleading when high speed dubbing. The recorder displays the available time on a blank 4.7 GB disc as exactly 2 hours in SP mode. But you can normally fit 2 hours plus several minutes of SP material on a 4.7 GB disc when you dub at high speed. The exact duration you can fit varies a bit because recordings of the same duration vary in size slightly. If you want to work exactly you need to work in MB.

    Another way of looking at this: If you high speed dub exactly 2 hours of SP material to a blank 4.7 GB disc, the displayed available recording time will drop to zero. But the destination capacity will still usually be a few hundred MB - enough for several more minutes in SP mode.
     
  8. Gavtech

    Gavtech
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    The 4:3 / Widescreen flag issue is a much discussed and sometimes contentious issue that is regularly aired on this forum.
    Some users regard it as no problem at all whereas others regard it as an intolerable limitation.
    To an extent these problems are mitigated by the type of material that may be typically watched and the varying broadcasters standards and policies.

    It arises as every new user discovers this limitation... not in least helped by Panasonic's innacurate and misleading manual which says titles will be recorded in 4:3.

    In fact, the ratio of what is recorded is always the same, it is just that with certain disks and certain settings [ for example 'Record for High Speed Copy ] the 'widesceen flag' which instructs your TV to switch to the widescreen mode is absent so your TV does not switch automatically to the correct ratio, but has to be done manually.

    The situation is further complicated by how differently various TV's respond to this circumstance so a 'one size fits all' answer does not apply.

    Additional complications arise because some people choose to watch material elswhere on 4:3 sets or wish to swap disks with people who use 4:3 sets.
    Some 4:3 sets have the facility to deal with aspect switching. Most do not.

    So whether it affects you depends on how you mostly use your material.
    If you feed it into a widescreen set then the easy workaround is to manually switch the aspect setting as required.

    You have to make disk format and settings choices based on what best suits your needs.

    If you can accomodate the 'Record for high speed copy' it has two very great advantages: The main being that the copy is a direct digital clone. No re-encoding is done so the copy process is lossless. Chapters are retained too. The other obvious advantage is that is does so quickly and thus ties up you and the machine for much less time.

    Re-encoding should be avoided if at all possible.
    As to quality settings at the recording stage, it is a question of thinking ahead.

    Each user will have their own preferences according to their setups and what they find acceptable, conditioned by always wanting the best possible quality but compromised by storage length.

    My personal solution is to record everything at SP [ with high speed copy pre-enabled] with the intention of getting up to two hours maximum on a disk.

    Exceptionally, if I record something between 2 to 3 hours I may consider using FR mode which will compress it down to fit on a disk....again high speed copy pre-enabled ... which can then be copied to a removeable disk.

    I would never consider going beyond 3 hours per disk, or using any of the LP modes...For something longer, I would find a different solution, but I have never had to yet.
     
  9. ROYOLD

    ROYOLD
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    It is possible to do this after removing the adverts. I use the create and delete
    chapter method for editing out adverts.

    If you know in advance that the film is a long one - say well over two hours even after editing out then record in FR mode. Even after high speed dubbing a long film you will still find there is space left on the dvd disc.

    Purchase a RECENT film guide book and check the film run-times. The TV recording is around 2 to 3 mins less than the film runtimes quoted.
     
  10. Speedee

    Speedee
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    I'm glad I've got an EX85 which records to the wonderfully powerful RAM disc (unlike a Sony I was reading about); I will be able to backup my VHS tapes and camcorder stuff - I will be searching for some answers on the later regarding using a HDD recorder as well as a PC, but for now........

    I had originally assumed, being digital now, there would be no problems in making copies of home DVD's (DVD Player to DVD Recorder (before I had a HDD, but never actualy got round to doing this anyway) or now using EX85 DVD -> HDD -> new DVD) as compared to copying VHS tapes in the past, with the degredation !!

    How much difference is there in quality when you re-encode? How does it compare with the differerece you can see between off-air programmes (at around 600 lines) and VHS SP (at 280?? lines). Or VHS SP and VHS LP?
    Can you notice it at all ?

    I have only used EP mode in an emergency - before I had a HDD recorder, when something came on, and I hadn't time to change discs, and needed more record time than was available with LP. I can't see me using it now I've the EX85.

    Also I will be able to pad out the end of the MotoGP at SP now, as you did notice the quality (digital noise/ not as sharp picture) degrade when you had to goto LP in case the race overrun!

    I'm assuming LP is OK on a HDD/RAM disk for "soaps" or programmes you don't want to keep.

    Can most other DVD players play DVD's recorded in either XP, LP, EP or FR modes (on the right type of disc for the player!)?

    Thanks for the informative answers in your post :thumbsup:

    This subject is very complicated, nearly as bad as PC's! I'm sure these and other questions get asked all the time, but the answers get hidden in long threads (like the -RW or +RW one!). If there are any places apart from these forums you suggest I take a look at please let me know where to look for information :smashin: :lesson:

    Speedee
     
  11. Speedee

    Speedee
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    Thanks for this this info should be in the Panasonic manual !! or in a special place in these forums ! ;) :thumbsup:

    When do you notice a difference in things recorded in XP as oppossed to SP ?

    Is there a rule of thumb that lets you compare the quality you view with digital XP SP LP EP with PAL off air at 625 lines, SVHS, VHS, and LP VHS ?

    thanks :thumbsup:

    Speedee
     
  12. Hal_loe

    Hal_loe
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    The one important fact is that the XP, SP, LP etc recording modes on a Panasonic DVD Recorder are totally different to SP, LP and SLP modes on VHS.

    These are simply different Bitrates.

    Whereas SP, LP and SLP on VHS were different tapes speed and hence lower bandwidth available to store the video information on.

    The bitrates on the various modes are

    XP bitrate is dependant on if AC3 or LPCM audio

    XP AC3 - 9500 Kbps
    XP LPCM - 8200 Kbps

    These were both checked using AVIcodec.

    Simple maths gives:-

    SP - 4750 Kbps
    LP - 2225 Kbps

    The resolution of the recording is always 576 vertical pixels and 704 horizontal.

    Reducing the bitrate leads to a very different effect to reducing tape speed on VHS.

    The lower the bitrate the more pixelation (square blocks) that will appear in fast action, especially flashing lights.

    Really they should have used different recording mode names to those used on VHS.

    Hope that helps.
     
  13. Lesley606

    Lesley606
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    Hi all

    Like Wolfie1, I too am new to dubbing and have been wondering how to record a programme longer than 2 hours. I have a few films on my HDD drive that are approx. 2.5 hours long. Is there another solution or media available that will accommodate this length of time - apart from the one suggested by Gavtech of using the flexible recording mode, which I have yet to try.

    My recorder is a Panasonic DMR EH50.

    Will a DVD-RAM do the job?

    Also, I purchased some DVD+RWs by mistake instead of DVD-RWs (just picked up the wrong ones!). Unfortunately I took off the selophane cover so I can't return them. Although I can't use them on my Panasonic recorder would I be able to use them for anything else, for example on my pc?

    Many thanks.
     
  14. Gavtech

    Gavtech
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    Hello Lesley.

    Welcome to the forum.


    I am assuming this was a recording done at the default SP quality?

    There is no media solution available unfortunately. Irrespective of all other quality considerations, DVD's [ including RAM's ] have a nominal maximum capacity of 4.7 GB whichever way you cut it... and at SP that correlates to a maximum 2 hours.
    There are double sided disks of course, but that would not deal with your problem, plus I don't think your DVDR unit supports them.

    So if you wish to archive the recording you have no option but to re-encode [ unless you split the recording across more than one disk but that is scarcely convenient ] ... and if you have to re-encode, then FR is the most optimal to use.

    Please ask if you require help to go through that process.

    You would, IF the drive in the PC supports them.
     
  15. Lesley606

    Lesley606
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    Many thanks Gavtech.

    It's really annoying the choice of media available is limited to 2 hours. Does anyone know why?

    I'm having a practise run now, recording a film on FR mode and will then transfer to disc and see how it turns out. If the quality is OK, then I will use this method for any programme that exceeds the 2 hour limitations - up to a max. of 3 hrs as you advised.

    Once again, thanks for your help.

    Great website - only discovered it today!
     
  16. Hal_loe

    Hal_loe
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    :confused: Media isn't limited to 2 hours it's actually limited to a size of 4.7GB (4.2 in real terms).

    The newer range of Panasonic machines can use dual layer discs. Which gives over 8GB of space.

    You can could record the following.

    XP mode gives 1hr
    SP mode gives 2hrs
    LP mode gives 4hrs
    EP mode gives 6 or 8 hrs

    Hope that helps.
     
  17. Gavtech

    Gavtech
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    The reason is, it was the best compromise size that could be achieved by the technology at the time when the standards for the medium were being set.

    2 Hours was a natural target. DVD was seen principally as a film storage medium, and very few films exceed that length. Recordable versions were not envisaged at that stage.

    DVD was a development of the pre-existing Audio CD
    Two principle techologies had to come together to make DVD possible.

    You have to understand the scale of the problem here. Pal TV is broadcast at 25 frames per second. Each frame takes approx 1 mb of raw data to convey.
    Thus 1 second of full motion video takes 25MB ... this correlates to 180GB for 2 hours of video!!
    A CD at that time could hold 650MB which is 275 times too small.

    Basically, improvements were made to allow more data to go onto a disk [ about 7 times more than a CD]... but the other major development that makes DVD possible at all, is compression technology.
    This allows the enormous improvement factor that makes it possible to store 2 hours of video on a disk.

    Its a miracle it works at all.

    Maybe grasping the problem will make you less frustrated by it.:D
     
  18. Lesley606

    Lesley606
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    Hal, thanks but having previously tried all modes of recording, I prefer to stick to XP or SP as the others don't offer good quality.

    The jist of my question was really to find a solution to the problem of being able to successfully dub recordings that were over 2 hours long, which Gavtech kindly answered.
     
  19. Hal_loe

    Hal_loe
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    Yep I have found that XP and SP are the only modes really worth using.

    I don't tend to record many films I wish to burn to DVD, so not a problem for me.
     
  20. Fast Jon

    Fast Jon
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    You might be surprised. I have used LP to squeeze six 40-minute episodes of LOST onto a single DVD-R and find the image quality to be very good indeed. By all accounts, recent Panasonic DVDRs have excellent encoders.
    However, you also need to take into account the quality of the original broadcast and your display equipment. An XP recording of a low bandwidth channel from Sky will have poorer image quality than an LP recording of a high bandwidth channel. And the additional compression of LP mode will tend to be more noticeable on a 50" plasma than on a 29" CRT.
     
  21. Gavtech

    Gavtech
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    Isn't there also a good argument for saying that if you only intend to watch something and then dispose of it - why not record it at the best quality , or at least SP ? ... because you'll get the space back fairly quickly.

    My general advice is: pretend you dont have LP modes... You have enough disk space to buffer you against most needs. Only use them in extreme cases when you have very limited choices.
    Why compromise uneccessarily on quality?

    For the most part there is never any need to fall below SP.
     
  22. Fast Jon

    Fast Jon
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    I agree with you in principle, but would consider using LP for archiving long series (24, LOST, etc) simply because it reduces the disc count by 50% with little discernible impact on image quality, at least with my EX85.
     
  23. Gavtech

    Gavtech
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    Indeed, when archiving to disk it can be justified to compress a little for the sake of other convenience factors.

    I was just wishing to point out to Speedee that if one is not intending to save a programme , then no quality compromise has to be made.

    Once can watch and enjoy at good or high quality and then dispose of the recording.
     
  24. Speedee

    Speedee
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    Good point, Gavtech, I'm spoilt now I've got so much space. Keeping the Timer recording setting at SP also means I won't record something else at a lower quality than I meant to ! :eek: :suicide:

    Speedee
     

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