Newbie question on the HDMI 2.1 bug

DJM1976

Active Member
Hi all,

I was all set to order a Yamaha 303 receiver when I was informed by a friend that it wouldn’t playback the DSD stream from a SACD over coaxial and that the audio would be downsampled. So this has now got me looking at AVR‘s in the hope that my devices won’t be hit by the HDMI 2.1 bug if plugged into the AVR as I have runout of ports on my Samsung 55” Q70.

The devices I currently have connected are

Xbox One X (Not Series X)
Sky Q 2tb Box
Amazon Firestick 4K
On the HDMI (Arc) Denon AVR X2000 (which is now pretty much useless for my HDCP 2.2 devices & VTuner without the search.

The only devices I am looking at getting in the near future are the Sony UBP-X700 & PlayStation 5

Can anyone please tell me if the AVR is worth getting for my current and chosen future devices, or am I best of getting the Yamaha 303 for audio but without the full SACD quality. By all means if there is any other audio device that can handle playing sound from SACD, then I am all ears.

Many thanks
 

andy1249

Distinguished Member
I was all set to order a Yamaha 303 receiver when I was informed by a friend that it wouldn’t playback the DSD stream from a SACD over coaxial and that the audio would be downsampled.
This has always been the case for SACD / DSD for every receiver or amp.
Neither co axial or optical have the bandwidth for a DSD stream and to play back over co axial or optical the DSD stream must be decimated or down sampled.
To get unmolested DSD playback you must use HDMI or the amp must have multichannel analog inputs and the corresponding outputs must be on the SACD player.

This has nothing to do with the HDMI 2.1 bug.
The HDMI 2.1 bug involves games consoles and gaming at 120hz from the new generation of consoles.
There is a workaround whilst the manufacturers are working on a fix , use eARC , i.e. connect console directly to the TV with eARC for sound to the amp.
 

DJM1976

Active Member
This has always been the case for SACD / DSD for every receiver or amp.
Neither co axial or optical have the bandwidth for a DSD stream and to play back over co axial or optical the DSD stream must be decimated or down sampled.
To get unmolested DSD playback you must use HDMI or the amp must have multichannel analog inputs and the corresponding outputs must be on the SACD player.

This has nothing to do with the HDMI 2.1 bug.
The HDMI 2.1 bug involves games consoles and gaming at 120hz from the new generation of consoles.
There is a workaround whilst the manufacturers are working on a fix , use eARC , i.e. connect console directly to the TV with eARC for sound to the amp.
Thank you ever so much for that as I had honestly thought that the bug affected all video devices and consoles. It definitely looks like the AVR route is the way to go for a multi function device. While it is more outlay it will be cheaper in the long run as wouldn’t need a separate tuner / network streamer. Thank you again for your extremely useful reply,
 

gibbsy

Moderator
The number of players that offer SACD is now dwindling. Sony and Pioneer are the two main manufacturers to offer SACD via HDMI, which as you know is now needed. Unfortunately because of Covid and financial problems Pioneer players would be available in the UK for the foreseeable future. That leaves you with Sony as a main true UD player.

Easy enough to check on AV amps to see if they decode native DSD. My Denon certainly does and I think it trickles down to the entry level amps as well. Again as already pointed out SACD playback has nothing to do with HDMI 2.1 or any other bugs.

There are plenty of SACD standalone stereo players on the market.
 

DJM1976

Active Member
The number of players that offer SACD is now dwindling. Sony and Pioneer are the two main manufacturers to offer SACD via HDMI, which as you know is now needed. Unfortunately because of Covid and financial problems Pioneer players would be available in the UK for the foreseeable future. That leaves you with Sony as a main true UD player.

Easy enough to check on AV amps to see if they decode native DSD. My Denon certainly does and I think it trickles down to the entry level amps as well. Again as already pointed out SACD playback has nothing to do with HDMI 2.1 or any other bugs.

There are plenty of SACD standalone stereo players on the market.

Yes you make a good point there about the financial problems that have occurred during the pandemic. I guess that the limited choice of Sony isn’t all bad, they do make some decent stuff and the player in question is £180, so very reasonable. As far as the AVR goes, I am currently tossing up between the Yamaha RX-V4A and RX-V6A. Both of them have the features I want and need, like the ability of connecting my Sony PS-HX500 Turntable, I just have to find out if the phono stage and other features in the V6A is of higher quality than the preamp in the PS-HX500, to justify the extra £200 when compared to the V4A.
 

gibbsy

Moderator
Yes you make a good point there about the financial problems that have occurred during the pandemic. I guess that the limited choice of Sony isn’t all bad, they do make some decent stuff and the player in question is £180, so very reasonable. As far as the AVR goes, I am currently tossing up between the Yamaha RX-V4A and RX-V6A. Both of them have the features I want and need, like the ability of connecting my Sony PS-HX500 Turntable, I just have to find out if the phono stage and other features in the V6A is of higher quality than the preamp in the PS-HX500, to justify the extra £200 when compared to the V4A.
I would get an AV amp with at least front pre-outs especially if you are thinking of playing a lot of vinyl as you can connect a stereo amp with HT by-pass to it. AV amps aren't that good at portraying stereo music. Obviously you'll need one if playing multi channel SACD. The better AV amps for stereo music are Yamaha and Marantz.

I only use my Denon for multi channel SACD, etc, but for stereo music it all goes to a Rega stereo amp with HT by-pass and that includes stereo SACD.
 

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
Room - no mention yet of your room and room layout.

Kit - as others have highlighted if digital and analogue music playback tips your priority list you have to consider playing your video sources back through a stereo system is the lesser compromise vs using an AVR to play back music sources.

Joe
 

DJM1976

Active Member
I would get an AV amp with at least front pre-outs especially if you are thinking of playing a lot of vinyl as you can connect a stereo amp with HT by-pass to it. AV amps aren't that good at portraying stereo music. Obviously you'll need one if playing multi channel SACD. The better AV amps for stereo music are Yamaha and Marantz.

I only use my Denon for multi channel SACD, etc, but for stereo music it all goes to a Rega stereo amp with HT by-pass and that includes stereo SACD.
Thank you for that information, I will look into that
Room - no mention yet of your room and room layout.

Kit - as others have highlighted if digital and analogue music playback tips your priority list you have to consider playing your video sources back through a stereo system is the lesser compromise vs using an AVR to play back music sources.

Joe
Well my livingroom layout is open plan with kitchen. The TV is on a TV cabinet in the corner, also where the tv cabinet is with my AVR inside, there are the front left, centre, right speakers that are connected to my AVR. Opposite the tv is my sofa with the back left and right speakers either side, I don’t have a subwoofer.
 

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
Open Plan and across a corner don't tend to work very well with surround sound - you are always fighting with the room acoustics.

Which speaker system do you have?

Joe
 

DJM1976

Active Member
Open Plan and across a corner don't tend to work very well with surround sound - you are always fighting with the room acoustics.

Which speaker system do you have?

Joe
Ok this is going to sound really lame but when I originally bought the Denon AVR X2000, I never had the cash to get decent speakers and so I ended up buying a used Kenwood KS300 HT 5.0 set from Ebay for about £50. Now if I go for the standard audio receiver route, it would be placed more central and in line with my sofa and so the speakers would be faced more directly towards me and also behind me. Also for the tv in the future a Soundbar would be facing more towards me as well than say the monitor speakers currently are.
 

Kapkirk

Active Member
Yes you make a good point there about the financial problems that have occurred during the pandemic. I guess that the limited choice of Sony isn’t all bad, they do make some decent stuff and the player in question is £180, so very reasonable. As far as the AVR goes, I am currently tossing up between the Yamaha RX-V4A and RX-V6A. Both of them have the features I want and need, like the ability of connecting my Sony PS-HX500 Turntable, I just have to find out if the phono stage and other features in the V6A is of higher quality than the preamp in the PS-HX500, to justify the extra £200 when compared to the V4A.
You might want to also consider the slimline Marantz NR1510 or if you want the extra channels the NR1711, they have phono inputs, fm radio and front ch pre-outs, great little versatile units as long as you don't want to shake the house down with volume.
 

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
Loudspeakers - I am sure you can do far better than your current speaker system.

AVR - is not where I would be spending any additional monies until I had the speakers upgraded.

Room/Room layout - sounds like it is far from optimal, pics or a sketch would be helpful to allow folk to suggest how best to optimise for your space.

Connectivity - connect the most capable Sources direct to the TV then use Optical or ARC out to the AVR plus connect your less capable devices direct to the AVR.

If you are short of Inputs on the TV or AVR consider adding an HDMI Switch rather than replacing the AVR.

Joe
 

DJM1976

Active Member
You might want to also consider the slimline Marantz NR1510 or if you want the extra channels the NR1711, they have phono inputs, fm radio and front ch pre-outs, great little versatile units as long as you don't want to shake the house down with volume.
Thank you very much I will take a look at those units. I live in a ground floor flat, so volume is never that loud and things like bass reduced, so I don’t upset neighbours either side of me or above me.
Loudspeakers - I am sure you can do far better than your current speaker system.

AVR - is not where I would be spending any additional monies until I had the speakers upgraded.

Room/Room layout - sounds like it is far from optimal, pics or a sketch would be helpful to allow folk to suggest how best to optimise for your space.

Connectivity - connect the most capable Sources direct to the TV then use Optical or ARC out to the AVR plus connect your less capable devices direct to the AVR.

If you are short of Inputs on the TV or AVR consider adding an HDMI Switch rather than replacing the AVR.

Joe
i will get on with doing a sketch but will agree with you about the space not being optimal, especially as if the TV was any bigger, I would be hitting the window or radiator. As much as I love the sound an effect of things like Dolby Atmos, it isn’t essential.

My current AVR also needs a new compatible remote as mine died awhile ago and anything setup related has to be done via web browser, also the lack of the search on internet Radio via VTuner and not being able to add new stations due to VTuner removing that function. when I am not listening to CD’s or files on my Nas drive, I mainly listen to different internet radio stations from around the world and not being able to add stations is extremely disappointing.

In all honesty if the Internet Radio on the AVR was still fully capable then I would had treated it to some new speakers as while I love the thought of a new gadget, I hate the thought of getting rid of something that still works. With that in mind, would it be worth considering something like the Yamaha WXC-50 to improve the internet capabilities to my current AVR as that is almost £200 cheaper than a new AVR ?.
 

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
Your room and listening do, to me, sound like a stereo system is a better option for you.

Retaining the AVR is one option and adding the Yamaha WXC-50 will deliver added functionality - alternatively you could consider replacing the AVR with the WXA-50!

One of my systems has an ATV 4K, PS4, BDP all via HDMI into the TV then Optical out to a WXC-50 which controls a couple of small power amps which drive a pair of PMC floor standing speakers and that works very well.

Joe
 

DJM1976

Active Member
Your room and listening do, to me, sound like a stereo system is a better option for you.

Retaining the AVR is one option and adding the Yamaha WXC-50 will deliver added functionality - alternatively you could consider replacing the AVR with the WXA-50!

One of my systems has an ATV 4K, PS4, BDP all via HDMI into the TV then Optical out to a WXC-50 which controls a couple of small power amps which drive a pair of PMC floor standing speakers and that works very well.

Joe
Thank you in regards to the stereo system, what are your opinions of the Yamaha RN303D if paired with some reasonable speakers ?. Basically I need something that has FM / DAB / Internet Radio and is essentially able to decode DSD files as I own a number of DSD albums and also my Turntable can archive directly to DSD which is a bonus, but would be nice to be able to playback the files without having to power my PC.

Also completely random but I occasionally do internet radio with a Behringer USB mixer, once my receiver is set up, would I be able to plug that mixer into the receiver via the main out on the mixer, into the line in on the receiver and make use of the passive speakers connected to it, instead of using the active ones all the time ?.
 

DJM1976

Active Member
You might want to also consider the slimline Marantz NR1510 or if you want the extra channels the NR1711, they have phono inputs, fm radio and front ch pre-outs, great little versatile units as long as you don't want to shake the house down with volume.
I have just looked at your suggestion and have to admit that I had no idea these type of units actually existed where they are slimline less speakers for the smaller rooms like mine but also give HDMI functionality. So am now doing research on the models suggested as well as alternative manufacturers like Denon that off similar products.

Thank you great help.
 

The latest video from AVForums

Sony Bravia XR A80J OLED TV Review
Subscribe to our YouTube channel

Full fat HDMI teeshirts

Support AVForums with Patreon

Top Bottom