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Newbie - please help rear projector US Screens vs UK

Discussion in 'Televisions' started by OneDesi, Aug 16, 2005.

  1. OneDesi

    OneDesi
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    Hi

    I am new to rear projector screens and a friend and I were debating whether we could import a DLP rear projector (50"+) from the states and actually use it in the UK with terrestrial and DVD (reason for import would be size vs cost - size does matter :) .

    My view is that after accomodating power supplies I should be able to connect my DVD player and set prog scan (hence negating any NTSC/PAL issues) via the digital outputs HDMI or the like and all is well. I also think I should be able to convert sky/freeview to work on this screen via some new fangled box?

    Am I miles off the mark or not - please help as I am really confused :confused:

    Also are there any large lcd's out there in the UK only?
     
  2. LV426

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    Off the mark.

    You mentioned terrestrial TV. It's highly unlikely that a US TV will receive UK transmissions.

    It's equally unlikely that it will handle the 625 line 50hz structure of PAL TV - by whatever source - tuner, set top box, DVD player. Some possibly do , but in general US stuff is very single standard.

    DVD players will output a signal, by whatever means, which has a refresh rate that matches the disc = 50hz PAL, 60hz NTSC. Again, it's probable that a US import won't handle 50hz.


    And then there's cost. Have you taken account of import duty and VAT? And the "difficulty" you might experience if anything does go wrong with it?

    Basically, this is unlikely to be a good idea.
     
  3. OneDesi

    OneDesi
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    Thanks for that - is this just me not understanding how digital tv's work then?
     
  4. OneDesi

    OneDesi
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    Does anybody else have any views please?
     
  5. dunsters

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    We all seem to look to Razor :hiya: or LV426 :hiya: for 'the word' so you may not get too many other views. ;)


    I was introduced to the whole DLP/Big screen scene when I was working in the US and was determined to get a big screen here. LV426 is absolutely correct that although we are about 6 months behind the US on technology and services, we are catching up and the prices of US sold kit (even if a universal/international set) grey imported to the UK when additional insurance, duty, conversion etc is taken into account is not going to be too many pennies short of a UK bought kit (Err.... OK we are living in 'rip-off britain after all:mad: :mad: ) - but especially at some of the internet prices out there.:rolleyes:

    My advice is - Start with what you want on the spec side. See what is on offer in the UK and then work on the price. Bear in mind the prices in the market have come down about 25% since the beginning of the year and I suspect, with the latest announcements, may come down still further for the current generation of kit.:smashin:

    Cheers:hiya:
     
  6. malso

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    your biggest problem, regardless of what's been said here is the PRICE of importing it........... :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

    it'll cost an absolute fortune and a U.S.A wholesaler might even refuse to send it to you anyway.....it's not worth their hassle, why? because they refused to export to me too and that's exactly what they said (but not a T.V)..

    It'll probably get damaged in transit, you'll have to pay import duty, V.A.T, Carriage charge (from port to your home) and finally; they'll charge you yet again if customs decide to open up the parcel to check out what's inside....

    you have to pay the carriage charge on the doorstep, if not; they'll take it away and charge you for storage.

    it's an absolute pain. :thumbsdow

    your best bet is to buy from the Europe, but i wouldn't bother with any of this.
     
  7. OneDesi

    OneDesi
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    Thanks for that guys, I can see cost being a problem but can somebody explain in baby speak whether technically I am right or not (I just thought it was like a PC screen you see) - I feel kinda' dumb at the moment and none the wiser!
     
  8. Razor

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    :hiya:

    We would all love to have the screens that are availible in the US but unfortunately it isnt possible. (82' Mitsubishi [​IMG] )

    With a pc monitor you dont have to worry about PAL/NTSC issue as pc's dont use this system. But with TV's you do. :lesson:

    US TV's rarely have PAL compatibilty as they do not see any benifit in PAL. This is the first and main issues with importing a set from the US. Coupled with the different voltage needed to work the display.

    As others have said you also have to factor in customs charges and transport costs. Also if it goes wrong your stuffed. :oops:

    (Dunsters :hiya: thanks for the kind words mate :smashin: )
     
  9. Welwynnick

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    I thought this might be the home of the early adoptors, but this all seems rather negative so far.

    Sure, it is valuable to hear about other people's problems with importing stuff, so that others can avoid making the same mistakes. But where there is a risk there is an opportunity, and it would equally useful to hear from anyone who HAS succesfully imported TVs and the like from the US. There is plenty of motivation to do so.

    I've been looking into this recently, and would like to make some positive and negative points.

    US TVs invariably have NTSC and ATSC tuners only, so they will never work with UK broadcasts. Not sure you would want to, though.

    However, you MAY be able to use set-top boxes. The issue here is whether they will accept PAL video, and that is a different matter entirely. Expensive plasmas and projectors invariably accept all flavours of video - look at the specs - and I would expect expensive DLP TVs to do so. However, I haven't been able to confirm that, and would like to hear from anyone who knows for sure. No guessing, please.

    Simply connecting playing a PAL DVD on a PAL DVD player and setting it to output progressive will make no difference. PAL is PAL and NTSC is NTSC, and both can be either interlaced or progressive.

    Frame rate is more of an issue. US sets run at 60 Hz, and European at 50Hz, (and I am not referring to the power supply, which is easy to deal with). Again, plasmas and the like often accept many different input frequencies (though not over HDMI/DVI), and we would need to know first whether US sets can accept 50Hz video. If not, it could always be frame rate converted by a scaler. Expensive, yes, but such a TV would justify it.

    If a US TV does only accept NTSC, then a scaler won't fix that, but you can get a transcoder. I don't know whether they work with HDTV, but it does add more to the cost and just makes it all a bit more unattractive

    I've successfully imported a few things, and wouldn't let it put me off. What may be an issue though, is actually getting someone in the US to send one. Many dealers will not ship expensive items abroad for fear of fraud, certainly not with non-US credit card sales, though there are other ways.

    While there are many down-sides to importing from the US, it's difficult for me, at least, to ignore the possibilities. Dealers are now listing 61" 1080p Samsung DLPs on ebay for just over three thousand dollars. Huge screen, high resolution, high contrast, daylight viewing, accepts HDMI/HDCP, almost invisible pixels, no need for an everyday TV, and picture quality that might not be beaten for another £10k.

    There may be problems, but I think it worth a good go at trying to overcome them.

    Nick
     
  10. Lion

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    why not be a trendsetter and get one imported then let us all know how you get on :devil:
     
  11. OneDesi

    OneDesi
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    We've obviously never met before as as I have been described as many things but never trendy and certainly never been called a trendsetter :rolleyes: :) :)

    I want to learn more about the pitfalls as I am really tempted at the moment but if I do I will definetly let you know what happens! :thumbsup:
     
  12. weyland-yutani

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    why are you even thinking about importing when you can buy 50"+ DLP rear projectors in the UK, anyway???
     
  13. OneDesi

    OneDesi
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    Could you recommend a few sets to look at please
     
  14. Welwynnick

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    I have been considering importing one from the States for a couple of weeks (ie:all holiday), but there are a couple of risks mentioned above that would have to be cleared first.

    Why not buy a UK TV? Because they are only 50", have only 1280 x 720 resolution, have only 2500:1 contrast, they cost about twice as much, need I go on?

    The new sets include Samsung HLR 5068, 5668, 5688, 6168, 6178, 6778, and go up to 71". There are also some new Toshiba sets with 1080p, which some say have slightly better PQ, but which seem to be more expensive.

    There are a few very big threads on the rear projection avsforum that give a lot of information.

    Nick
     
  15. Razor

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    If importing these displays was so easy dont you think that a retailer would be doing this. The reason its not done is beacuse there are to many issues to make it viable. :lesson:

    We are all big DLP fans here and we would all love the displays availible in the US but no one in these forums has one which should say it all.

    :D
     
  16. dunsters

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    Not to dis your opinion in any way :)

    NB - The Sagem is 56", has 3000:1 contrast and 700 Cd/m2 brightness which from what I can see from the web, is state of the art in the US too.:cool:

    Previous threads here seem to debunk the value of 1080p over 720p and even then, from what I saw on the US side, there are only a few sets in the USA at this level so far.

    I too, have been watching AVSForums over there and even today, Chris_Stephens' thread on 1080P24 suggests that this is still not the adopted standard over there in place of 1080i and he bemoans the fact that HD DVDs when they are finally released and ATSC broadcast are still not expected to show to this level at present. Add to this the fact that those sets who claim to have 1080p are in fact only upping their level through 'wobulation' and in the end still only have the same number of mirrors inside the sets as we do. I really think that 1080p is of limited value for another year or so based on the current spec of the source (DVD and broadcast) materials.

    Anyway, whatever happens in the US, the UK will surely follow in the next 6 months or so, so why not wait and buy here if these really will make a big difference to you?

    So there you go - my opinion for what it is worth :rolleyes:

    Remember, you could ask your next door neighbour for his opinion on brain surgery, but would you let him operate?:lesson:

    Cheers:hiya:
     
  17. Razor

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    Nice post Dunsters. :thumbsup:
     
  18. OneDesi

    OneDesi
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    Guys - this has been a great thread for me and I have learnt a lot, thanks for all who contributed.

    Please do continue to contribute with opinions as it sounds like this world of rear projector DLP's has a lot to offer me and I have a lot to learn.
     
  19. Welwynnick

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    All this has strengthened my resolve to import one and show everyone you can have the best picture around without re-mortgaging.

    Dealers don't import them because they would be retail, rather than trade sales. Dealers probably have supply contracts that restrict where they can source stock. Dealers have to meet the needs of the man in the street who wants a simple one box solution, and won't want to consider transformers, scalers, transcoders or even set top boxes. Dealers have to be able to provide support and fix problems. None of this applies to me

    The wobulation issue won't go away, which is a shame, because there isn't an issue. The chip used in the 1080p sets provides twice the resolution of the 720p chips. It doesn't matter how it does it - it's the performance that is delivered that matters. You wouldn't expect a 3 chip DLP to give more resolution than a single chipper, would you?

    The fact that 1080p programming is not yet available is as insignificant now as when 480p/576p was unavailable when 480p plasmas were launched.

    However, if it turns out that a US TV does not accept a 50Hz PAL video input, then I think that would preclude importing one. That is the important thing what I want to get answered.

    Nick
     
  20. Welwynnick

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    I pursued the possibility of importing a RPTV from the US becuase I had seen spec sheets for US-only plasma models that accepted a variety of video formats, resolutions and frequencies, and I have already imported a couple of LCD TVs myself without any problems

    This sort of information didn't seem to be readily available for the newly-launched 1080p DLP TVs in the US, but I have got in touch with a reputable dealer, who has just told me that the models they have only take NTSC video, and probably only at 60Hz.

    Now that's not the end of the world, but it is a couple more obstacles in the way, and if there is a prospect of us getting a different but equivalent model in the UK in the not too distant future, then that would be something to look forward to, wobulation or no wobulation.

    Gsrai - I don't think I would do it.

    Nick
     
  21. OneDesi

    OneDesi
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    Nick Thanks for doing some digging.

    I think you are probably right, if I can curb my impatience then the hassle free UK option is the way to go - waiting is just hard work!
     
  22. Welwynnick

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    I may have got that wrong. I thought this was a dead thread, but I just read something that fills in a big gap in my knowledge of TV. I had always thought that there were some fundamental differences between the different video standards that stopped you from watching NTSC on a PAL TV for example.

    But if you break the signal down to the basic level of RGBHV for example, you may have by-passed all the differences in the standards, and derived raw video that can be displayed by anything. What made me change my view was a post by a Lumagen engineer who said that by frame rate converting a scaled RGB signal from 60 to 50 Hz, you were effectively completing the conversion from NTSC to PAL. It never occurred to me that scalers could do that.

    It was always my intention to use a 1080p DLP RPTV with a scaler, though not if it meant having to use a separate video standard converter. Now if that isn’t necessary, I think it does open the door to using the latest and greatest US RPTVs in the UK.

    I'm going to bounce this off the boffins in the scalers forum.

    Nick
     
  23. LV426

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    I don't mean to pour any cold water on your ideas here, but I'm going to say it anyway:

    Converting frame rate from 50hz to 60hz is bound to introduce some sort of motion artefact. It may be jerkiness or an obscure sort of softness. But an artefact anyway.

    It makes simple sense, if you think about it. If you start out with something where, every 1/5 of a second there are five discrete and different frames and end up with something where every 1/5 of a second you have SIX discrete frames, there has to have been some duplication or temporal interpolation going on. And, no matter how good the processor is, it cannot produce a result that's the same in quality as the original.

    It's always going to be better to display a signal at its native refresh rate or an integral multiple of it.
     
  24. Ettepet

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    Today I heard a sales representative claim that the RPTV manufacturers will avoid the European market for the moment with their new launches because of the low prices for LCD & Plasma screens here, and concentrate on Asia and (later on) the US soil. He also said that he expected the Samsung 1080p screens to arrive here early next year. I guess we shall have to see.. ;)
     
  25. RockySpieler

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    Another reason is the return on investment, manufacturers do work together, many joint ventures. The cost of new factories and new technologies is immense. They are affraid to make rank.
    The longer a technology (such as 720p DLP) can be sold, in staged releases to markets the greater the ROI. Typically Japan / Asia / USA / Europe / South America /Africa to try and extend the product life cycle.
    The Internet and China's desire for domination may change this pattern.
    The demand for HD, also affects product releases, until Europe has widespread HD broadcasting, the fixed costs (PAL / 50Hz / Manual translations etc) cannot be recovered.

    Just my 2 cents.
     
  26. malso

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    there are loads of 1080p HLR67'' sammys on ebay :smashin: :smashin:

    THEY ALSO SHIP WORLDWIDE, but it'll cost you over here in VAT and all the rest etc...........let alone the problem of getting it adapted to suit/ getting it serviced if it breaks down etc........it might be worth doing loads of research, but i expect it'll be too expensive

    i'm guessing they'll be for sale over here soon anyway, because bigger screens are becoming very popular.......currys already sell the 60'' plasma..............but the 67'' Sammy is way too large. :eek: :eek: it'll look rediculous in my house
     

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