Newbie Lumagen HDP questions

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by NicolasB, Jan 16, 2008.

  1. NicolasB

    NicolasB
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    It's clearly going to take me a long time to get any idea how my new HDP scaler works. :eek:

    I will therefore shamelessly ask the odd newbie question in this thread. :)

    First question.... Suppose I'm feeding it an anamorphic PAL SD signal. I would like the output to be the picture scaled to exactly 1024x576, with that scaled image displayed letterboxed in a 1920x1080 picture with a black border filling the rest of the screen.

    Can I do that? If so, how? And, if I'm doing this, can I get it to switch automatically between letterboxed 720x576 and letterboxed 1024x576 when I change the aspect ratio setting?
     
  2. NonPayingMember

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    If I understand you correctly, does your TV have a pixel:pixel mode where if it receives 1024x576 it will show it in the central part of the TV and add it's own bars? If so, create and output memory for that resolution in the Lumagen (e.g. OUT3) and then assign MEMC of the DVD input to this output. This would be global for PAL signals on that input though. But I guess the Lumagen would be rescaling the anamorphic signal to fit the output anyway. What you cannot tell it to do is output 1080p with the 576p bit within the frame.

    Have you downloaded the basic setup guide? It has a few more cryptic clues in it as to how to setup ins and outs and pair them together etc.
     
  3. NicolasB

    NicolasB
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    No. It zooms everything to full screen (unless you use PAP mode, which doesn't allow single-pixel increments, and I also can't figure out how to control PAP overscan).

    I was hoping I would be able to use the Lumagen to achieve this effect, but it sounds from what you're saying as though I can't. :(
     
  4. NonPayingMember

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    Apart from overscan and masking adjustments, the Lumagen does not allow resizing the active image size within the output window. I don't know of any VP that would give you that I'm afraid. I think you would be about the only person in the world that would want that feature LOL!!! Shame the TV won't do it, not many that do.

    You can switch the scaling off (SCALE = OFF, and must be using a matching output resolution - great for 1080i to 1080p) but with the TV rescaling it's not going to give you what you are looking for.
     
  5. NicolasB

    NicolasB
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    According to this thread you can do it on a Crystalio.

    Edit: isn't there a "shrink" command on the Lumagen? (Go here and scroll down a little). That sounds like it might be heading in the right direction. It says it's capable of eliminating overscan on digital displays.
     
  6. CrispyToast

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    Which guide is this Liam?

    Sorry found it.
     
  7. NonPayingMember

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    Sign up for the Lumagen forum. It's at the top in a sticky in the Vision support forum:

    http://www.convergent-av.co.uk/forum/

    Have never noticed that option in a Crystalio before, my mistake. Is it still there in the C-II models? Definitely nothing on the Lumagen though (just tried).
     
  8. NicolasB

    NicolasB
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    Been very busy lately, but had some more time to experiment with my HDP today. Lost looks absolutely dazzling with proper film-mode deinterlacing. :) On the other hand, the quality of deinterlaced SD video seems to be absolutely shocking :( - even my Sky HD box does a much better job. (Wondering if I've cocked something up, there! :rolleyes: )

    Questions:

    1) I've done the EDID editing thing to get 576i out of my Sky HD box via HDMI. Is there any way I can get the Lumagen to pass through 576i to the television? (I've tried setting the output resolution to 576, but this just causes the scaler to crash).

    2) There's a useful setting out->misc->shrink which almost does what I want in terms of getting 1024x576 letterboxed. It does actually allow you to display a smaller image letterboxed inside a larger one with black borders; but sadly the maximum number of pixels you can have between the outer edge of the display and the edge of the picture seems to be 255 (assuming that number is a pixel count). Is there any sneaky way to make that number larger?

    Edit:

    Changing the "Size" setting (out->res->size) also works. But, again, there's a limit to how small one can make it. You can make the horizontal size as small as you like, but the smallest the vertical size will change to is -43 (default value is +84) and obviously you have to maintain the right aspect ratio. Using a negative "Size" and the highest degree of "Shrink" together gives me a quite significant amount of letterboxing, but the resultant image is still quite a bit larger than 1024x576. :suicide:

    Is there any sneaky way of making the vertical Size setting smaller? Any chance Lumagen might extend the Size or Shrink range in a future firmware release? :)
     
  9. choddo2006

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    You MUST have. A techwood plasma is better at it than the Sky box (probly) ;)

    As to your original question, I'm not sure why you would want to do what you're asking. Why would you want it shrunk down? And why do you think it would be letterboxed? Or do you mean bordered all the way round? Is this on a projector and you want to optically zoom it? Certainly the DVDO products let you underscan an SD analog signal before placing it in the output frame so that you can compensate for overscan as you described. I use it all the time. I don't know exactly when this happens in the pipeline, as you'd lose detail if it's done before it's scaled up so I hope it's done after scaling up but no idea how much difference it would make in reality.

    Just reading the rest of your last post ...
    edit: no, still not sure why you'd want to do it :) I imagine the DVDO products are also limited in how far you can underscan since it's only designed to compensate for maybe 5%-6%
     
  10. NicolasB

    NicolasB
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    I don't think I have, actually. :rolleyes: My television is better at deinterlacing SD video than my Sky box is, but even the Sky box seems to be better than the Lumagen. It's much worse at correctly distinguishing between film and video, of course.

    It looks particularly bad viewing something like the horizontal scrolling text on BBC News 24: weird sort of sparkly effect around the letters, especially M's. I've got it set up to switch manually between "Film" and "Video" mode so I can compare the two, so it is definitely getting an interlaced signal, definitely applying Video deinterlacing (rather than Film) and it isn't even trying to detect whether the source is video or not, so I don't think there can be anything I've missed.

    Previous experience tells me that you aren't going to understand why I want to even if I explain it. :) It would be like me trying to explain why some sort of food that you hate so much it makes you feel sick even thinking about it is actually really delicious: you may be able to acknowledge that other people's tastes are not the same as yours, but you'll never truly appreciate how anyone can possibly think it tastes nice. :cool:

    It's simply that I don't always want the picture to be upscaled; I want it to be displayed as close to its original resolution as it can be without messing up the aspect ratio. I prefer an image that is small and sharp rather than one that is large but very soft.

    Given a choice between this (a part of a 720x576 image that has been scaled to 1024x576):
    [​IMG]

    and this (the same part of the same image but this time scaled to 1920x1080):
    [​IMG]

    I think that the first one looks better. I know you don't agree. I know virtually no one else in the entire world agrees. I don't care. ;)

    It does actually depend on the quality of the image too. A good quality DVD transfer I can stand to watch upscaled to full screen, but the average Sky SD transmission I can't: the picture quality simply isn't good enough that it can stand being blown up that large (IMO).

    Deficiencies in video mode deinterlacing also become almost invisible if you aren't vertically upscaling.

    Yes, I meant bordered all round: the full SD picture displayed as a 1024x576 image with black borders padding it out to 1920x1080.

    At the moment switching to a different model of scaler is beyond my financial capabilities; I just want to know if there's any way of doing what I want with the Lumagen. I can get frustratingly close, but not quite there.
     
  11. NicolasB

    NicolasB
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    Another question:

    Is there any way to set the output mode to be INDEP for some inputs but AUTOIND for others?
     
  12. NonPayingMember

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    Third question - all you have to do is point MEMA and MEMC at the same OUTSEL option and you have exactly the same characteristic as a fixed output. Actually reading back, are you saying you would rather manually choose e.g. 24 or 60 for some inputs, but have others always do 50/60? You can get into using MEMB and MEMD, then for every input that AUTO gives you the right characteristic for you make MEMA and MEMB (and MEMC and MEMD) point at exactly the same OUTSEL in both cases. If you can describe exactly what you need I can help a bit better.

    On your blanking quest I have an idea that will only work if your TV is gonna play ball. Of course if your TV just had a 1:1 mode this would be easier LOL!

    Anyways, you should experiment with creating a custom resolution. HTOT and VTOT are the total value of pixels in the output, which are made up of a front and back porch, a sync width, and then an active area (i.e. the bit with the picture in). What you could try is manipulating the porch size and active size. So if for example your 1080p output is HTOT of about 2500 and the HACT is obviously 1920, you could try taking 896 out of the HACT and putting it into the porch instead. This creates a signal with massive blanking space, but exactly 1024 width of active pixels. Not a lot of displays will play ball though and might just chuck the signal back at you. You may need to experiment a LOT to find the magic number, and only find out it isn't there (like the weekend I lost trying to get 50Hz native on a Fuji).
     
  13. NicolasB

    NicolasB
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    I've just this minute figured out how to do my letterbox thing. :clap:

    I had been thinking in terms of both the "Shrink" and the "Size" setting separately maintaining the correct aspect ratio. But actually I don't have to do that, because I can use one setting to correct the incorrect aspect ratio that would otherwise be created by the other one.

    So, I set the Shrink to be Top: 252, Left: 255, Bottom: 252, Right: 255. Then set the size from the default (+150, +84) to (-236, +84) and I'm there. :smashin:

    This should even allow me to watch NTSC DVDs at 848x480 if I want to. :)

    The only remaining question is whether the scaler is going directly from 720x576 to 1024x576, or whether it's internally scaling up and then back down again; does anyone know?

    If I'm playing a DVD then that might either be 50Hz or 60Hz. It is therefore useful to use the AUTOIND setting for DVDs: if I'm playing a 60Hz disc then the Mem A and Mem B buttons switch between memories A and B, but if I'm playing a 50Hz disc then the A and B buttons switch between memories C and D instead. That means I've got two memories for 50Hz sources and two for 60Hz ones.

    However, the output from my Sky HD Box is always 50Hz. I would like to be able to easily access all four memories when watching Sky. But at the moment, because I'm using the AUTOIND setting, I only have access to the C and D memories - the A and B are reserved for when I have a 60Hz input via DVI (which is never).

    I could switch from AUTOIND to INDEP, which would give me access to four different memories when watching Sky, but if I do that then, when watching DVDs, it stops automatically switching output refresh rate (e.g. switching automatically between memories A and C) when I switch between 50Hz and 60Hz discs. (I could still switch manually from A to C, but that's annoying).

    Is there any way I can have both automatic A/C and B/D switching for DVDs and also access all four memories when watching Sky? (This would effectively mean the out->mode setting being stored per-input rather than globally).
     
  14. timmorris

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    It's a global setting on the Vision series I'm afraid. You can do what you want with the Radiance as it has four indepedent memories for each combination of input resolution and refresh rate.

    Best start saving!

    Tim
     
  15. NonPayingMember

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    It's a global setting and I don't think there is much room to make many changes to this. It's something I've mentioned to Pat before which I think is why the Radiance has such a more comprehensive way of doing it.

    So do I assume that you have a switch connected into the input that Sky HD is using?? Sometimes it is possible to mix and match sources in such a way that only certain memories will load, e.g. putting HD-DVD and Sky HD on the same input via a switch will mean Sky HD will only ever want 50Hz stuff and HD-DVD will only ever want 60.

    If you can list every single source and what exactly you want it to do and to which display(s) I might be able to be a bit more precise. Or is it more a case that you want to make a large number of output profiles? I can't see that you want more than 1080p50, and then your custom 576p chopped profile. Might be worth posting in the Lumagen forum as a feature request though
     
  16. NicolasB

    NicolasB
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    Actually I think two memories will do me for Sky HD; I hadn't allowed for the possibility making the B memory do two completely different things depending on whether it's an HD or SD signal, but of course one can do that.

    My latest niggle is that using the Shrink setting causes the aspect ratio to get completely b*llocksed up on 4:3 material. I think this is probably an actual bug in the firmware rather than me using it wrong; even if I use Shrink without changing the default Size setting, 4:3 is still badly wrong. I suspect it works out the correct size of the 4:3 image and then subtracts the Shrink values from that when it ought to do it the other way round - subtract the Shrink values from the 16:9 screen size and then calculate the 4:3 dimensions from there.

    This is irritating as it means that (unless I abandon my shrunk screen) I now have to use different memories just to switch aspect ratio properly. :mad:

    Perhaps you could mention that to Pat next time you talk to him. :)

    Oh, and when you say "The Lumagen Forum" do you mean the forum over at Convergent AV, or is there one on Lumagen's site?
     
  17. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Lumagen forum is hosted by me.

    If you find bugs you just email [email protected] and let them know details of firmware, signal going in, signal going out, what is happening

    Gordon
     
  18. NonPayingMember

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    Probably best that you mention it to Pat cos I'm a bit lost now!!!
     
  19. NicolasB

    NicolasB
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    :oops:

    Well, I'm emailing [email protected] even as we speak. :)

    But if you want to see what I'm talking about, set up the Size and Shrink parameters mentioned above (with a 1080p screen) put on something that's not anamorphic and push the "4:3" button; the shrunk picture is far too narrow. (But it's correct for 16:9 material).
     
  20. Gordon @ Convergent AV

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  21. NicolasB

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    I have adjusted the input sizing, but only for all aspect ratios at once, not separately for 4:3 and 16:9.

    Edit: I tried adjusting the input size, but it didn't help.
     
  22. NicolasB

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    Okay, new question. I've used the Lumagen test patterns to set the brightness and contrast controls on my TV to optimum. But I can't figure out how to work out the best possible colour setting. Help? :)

    I do possess NTSC AVIA and PAL DVE discs, including coloured filters, if that's a help. But presumably at this stage I should be callibrating the TV to the output of the Lumagen, before going on to callibrate the Lumagen to the output of the DVD player?

    I also have access to an EyeOne colorimeter and HCFR software, which I can't help feeling ought to be helpful somehow. (So far all I've figured out how to make it do is measure colour temperature and gamma along the greyscale, which has given me optimum R/G/B gain/bias settings for the TV).
     
  23. Rob100

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    Yes, that's the order to do things in.
     
  24. SimonO

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    :rotfl:
     
  25. NicolasB

    NicolasB
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    All right, I'm guessing that what I need to do is get the Lumagen to produce either its 75% or 100% colour bars pattern and then use the filters that came with my DVE disc; so, with the red filter, the red component of red, yellow and magenta should all be as equal as possible. Is this correct? And should I be using the 75% pattern or 100%? Or doesn't it matter?

    I've managed to set chroma delay by using output from my Sky HD box; blue text on a yellow background for one setting (e.g. from the front screen of the Grogramme Guide, the highlighted item) and white text on a red background for the other (e.g. the "i" in "BBCi" when going into digital teletext on BBC News 24). I haven't yet figured out how to use the DVE chroma delauy pattern properly: what am I suppised to be looking for?

    (As an aside, I'm sure I didn't have any chroma delay on Sky before I put the HDP in the chain; with it there I got a grey border to the right hand side of cyan subtitle letters which wasn't there when I was feeding the Sky HD signal straight to the TV! Can RGB sources even have chroma delay?!)

    The next step (I guess) is to start tweaking the 5-point or 11-point colour and gamma adjustments. Is there any documentation anywhere about how to do this? I've found this:

    http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Tip0005_ColorCorrectionVisionSeries.pdf

    but it doesn't really go into quite enough detail about what all the various Lumagen settings actually do. I'm loath to start tweaking them to experiment because I'm not sure I'll be able to set them back to what they were if I get it wrong!

    And, while I think I understand colour temperature and gamma curves okay, I don't really understand what I'm trying to do with correcting the primary colours; what am I measuring, what am I altering, and how do I measure the result?

    It also doesn't entirely make sense to me that tweaking of gamma and colour temperature is done only per-input. I realise that different sources may have different output characteristics, but if all of the adjustments are done per-input, that means you can only do grey-scale correction on inputs where you can generate a test pattern. Why isn't there a way of adjusting the Lumagen output globally so as to make the Lumagen-generated test patterns display absolutely correctly, before going on to tweak individual inputs relative to that? (Or is that actually possible and I just haven't found it? Does tweaking the parameters on an input affect the output of the Lumagen test patterns with that input selected?)

    And what am I supposed to use for test patterns? DVE has only a 5-point grey scale, so how can I get enough data to do an 11-point correction? And what do I use for callibrating Sky? I have the Sky HD test card recorded, but it has an 8-point grey-scale rather than 5 or 11; are the IRE values on that where you would expect them to be (i.e. 0IRE, 14.3IRE, 28.6IRE, etc.)? And is the larger greyscale displayed across the screen earlier in the programme (under the faces of Mylene and her two side-kicks) accurate, or do I have to depend on the boxes displayed on the actual test card at the end? (If the latter then I don't know if I can position my colorimeter accurately enough to measure them).
     
  26. timmorris

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    Send me a PM with your email address and I can send you a copy of the dealer manual which has more detail on greyscale calibration. Technically you are supposed to get it direct from Lumagen, but I'm sure Gordon won't mind me sending it direct as all you have to do to get it from them is to send an email to Lumagen support asking for it!
    Use HCFR (or my favourite, Calman - it's almost ready for release now, I've arranged for Phil Hinton to get a review copy so you can get another opinion other than mine). The main benefit of Calman is that it has step by step instructions that take you through calibration, from a complete novice, through intermediate to expert. The demo version has lots of documentation but only works with a simulated meter. If you prefer to stick with here's a whole lot of learning required to get gamma and greyscale completely sorted, I've posted a full set of links on the calman forum, I'll dig them out next time I'm there and copy them over.

    There's a free DVD downloadable from AVS forum which has all the requisite greyscale patterns plus loads more. I can't find the link at the moment but again I'll dig it out if someone else doesn't post it.

    You can use the Lumagen built in patterns or a DVD to set greyscale and gamma for a single input, and once you are happy that you are there copy them across to all other inputs using the copy command.

    Copy your DVD settings across first and then fine tune them for Sky. All you really need to do is check black and white levels. White you can do with Mylene's test card, and black you can do by using one of the music video channels that has black bars top and bottom. I tend to use the square buttons on the bottom of the TV guide to set Y/C delay and I'm in good company because Gordon does too.

    You need to use the newly introduced CMS to adjust primaries and secondaries. I haven't used it on my HDQ yet (I've relocated that to my brother's cinema which has an AE1000 in it) so can't really comment. When I last saw Gordon he wasn't 100% sure it was completely ready and bug-free yet so I'd hold off. One problem you'll have is that a colorimeter is great for greyscale but not measuring spot colour (primaries and secondaries) To do the CMS justice you really need to upgrade to an i1 pro or other spectro-radiometer. While I know of a reasonably priced source I'm not allowed to post it as they aren't forum sponsors.

    I've jumped about a bit so if I've missed anything ask again.

    Tim

    Tim
     
  27. NicolasB

    NicolasB
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    I may check out Calman; I've been too much of a cheapskate to pay for it up until now, that's why I'm using HCFR instead. :)

    The HCFR people do supply a downloadable DVD image which includes 11-point grey-scale and various other things; does anyone happen to know if it's accurate? I may need to get the AVS Forum one as well, because (AFAIK) the HCFR is PAL-only.

    I'm a bit anxious, as I've been reading in a few places that there are some errors on the standard AVIA disc (e.g. that what is labeled 10IRE is actually 2.5IRE :eek:) and if the AVIA people can get it wrong, I guess amateur people can too....

    Okay, now, do you actually mean "you can use the Lumagen built-in patterns... to set greyscale and gamma for a single input"? If you do, that's good. For example: suppose at IRE50 on the greyscale I have a peak on my blue curve, and I change the settings for that input to dial the blue down a little at IRE50; will that affect the blue value that the HDP is producing in its own internally-generated test patterns? I had assumed that the test patterns depended only on the output parameters and not the input ones. If it is possible to tweak the Lumagen test pattern output by adjusting input parameters, then that's very useful to know.

    I suspect your idea and my idea of what constitutes "reasonably priced" may not be the same anyway. :( The only reason I have an EyeOne colorimeter is because it was a gift; if I'd been buying myself I probably would have made do with a Spyder2.
     
  28. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Nicolas: You can set the test patterns to either be REFERENCE or to use the adjusted settings on your chosen input. So you can measure and adjust at same time. I suggest you use the adjustable ones and and use them to create a base you can copy to all memories and inputs as Tim says. Then feed external patterns in from other sources and adjust those memories individually.

    CMS is tricky and will require alot of work to get good results. Stick to greyscale and gamma to start.

    I never use AVIA for greysale. I use DVE Profressional. I beleive the AVS test disc should be accurate as well.
     
  29. NicolasB

    NicolasB
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    Cool, that's exactly what I'm trying to figure out how to do. :) As I said, I wasn't sure if the test patterns could be altered by changes to Input (rather than Output) parameters. Where's the option to switch the patterns between Reference and per-input states?

    Random additional question: does Sky HD have CUE?
     
  30. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    I think sd sky probably has CUE.

    Under the

    MENU>MISC>TPAT I think you have option of Reference or Adjustable. It's in the MENU>MISC> sub menu structure anyway.

    It wasn't always in the firmware though so you might want to check you have latest.

    Also, for doing greyscale using internal test patterns you don't go to MENU>MISC>TPATS.

    You just enable service menu
    MENU 0 9 1 0
    then navigate to the CTEMP adjustment in the IN sub menu's
    Then use the UP cursor once you are in 11 point. You'll see white fields or white windows as you scroll upwards.

    Gordon
     

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