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Question Newbie: AV over IP Cabling Query

arjandelaney

Novice Member
Hi All,
I'm new to this forum so please bear with me and thanks in advance for your help.
I've just purchased an AVR and 5.1 speaker system.
My proposed setup is this...AVR and TV are in different locations in my living room due to existing speaker cabling locations. I plan to put all sources directly into AVR in a stack. I will put HDMI over Cat5e using a pair of baluns.
Here's my problem...I have one Cat5e cable going from AVR location to switch room...and a separate pair of Cat5e's running from switch room back to TV location. I've been reading online that you can't 'join' AV over IP using a switch as the AV signal won't carry.
If I can't patch the Cat5e's using a switch or something else, my last resort is to run a new Cat5e cable from AVR to TV around the skirting/architrave/windows/etc which is a little problematic in terms of routing, but possible.
Can anyone offer help or advice on this please?
Thanks again in advance.
Arjan
 

Jamie

Distinguished Member
You're correct in that it's best practice to use uninterrupted runs of cable with extenders, however I have see various people say the last HDBaseT extenders seem to work better with face plates and patch panels so you may very well be fine.

I have to ask though, why isn't your AVR in the switch room? Seems like a ideal place to put it to me.
 

arjandelaney

Novice Member
Hi Jamie,
Thanks for the quick reply! I suppose my AVR is going into the living room because that's where the 6 speaker cables (buried in masonry walls) terminate.
Is there a way to extend 5.1 audio signal from the AVR in switch room back to the speaker cables location in the living room over a single Cat5e? If so I could look at putting the AVR into the switch room as that's where the Sky signal comes into the house too.
Cheers...Arjan
 

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
TV - is it of the 'Smart' variety and how much use will you make of its Terrestrial, Sattelite or Streaming capabilities?

AVR - what do you have?

Sources - what do you have?

HDMI over CAT - be careful with the terminology, HDMI over IP is a different beast!

Speaker cables - unless you can extend each of the five speaker cables (using a similar gauge of loudspeaker cable) plus Subwoofer cable you are better served sticking to having the AVR in the Living Room!

Joe
 

arjandelaney

Novice Member
Hi Joe, thanks for your reply.

TV is 'smart' yep. It's 3D but not 4K. I have Sky and Netflix, etc., but might go down the Chromecast route later as no TV's are that 'smart' as far as I know.

AVR is Yamaha RX-V579. It's 7.2 but I'll be running 5.1 courtesy of Q Acoustics 7000i speakers.

Sources are TV, Sky, Blu-Ray, perhaps Chromecast and Sonos later.

It's HDMI over Cat5e I have. I've no attics in the house so extending speaker cables is not an option unless I want to somehow trunk them all at skirting level. Not an option really. I'm encouraged by Jamie's advice above that some more recent HDBaseT extender baluns will work through a switch though. I have about 25m run from AVR in living room to switch room, and again another 25m back from switch to TV location in living room, about 50m to 70m total route. Worse case if the switch doesn't work or produces low quality AV, I can run a new Cat5e point to point in my living room at skirting level.

Can you recommend a good quality pair of HDMI baluns and a good switch (probs 8 port max. will do) for the job?

Thanks again for your help.

Arjan
 

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
HDBT is a Point to Point solution - it cannot 'Broadcast' (1 x Transmitter to multiple Receivers) via a Gigabit Switch the way HDMI over IP can.

HDBT is robust enough to allow you to put a break in the CAT cable - though you can still be caught out so the advice we give is to where possible use a single unbroken run of solid core CAT6.

Some versions of HDBT allow you to 'hop' an IP signal via the same cable - though the '5-PLay' (HDMI + 10/100) versions of HDBT are mostly used in the Pro AV market and cost a bit extra.

You can cascade your Sources via an HDMI Switch and then send the Output of the HDMI Switch via an HDBT Extender (with IR) to the AVR/Living Room and potentially have a break in the CAT cable run to allow you to join two runs of CAT cable (what will the total cable run length be?).

Smart TV - the reason I ask is what do you have in place to bring the TV Digital Audio back to the AVR (if that option is required!).

Joe
 

arjandelaney

Novice Member
Should also say...I might as well fork out for 4K HDMI baluns as they are expensive units anyway and no point in paying again if I upgrade the TV, although the TV is les than 6 months old. Got a deal deal on a non-4K model! Unles you tell me that 4K will be obsolete by the time I upgrade again in a few years, so better to stick to bare 1080p with 3D?
 

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
'4K' on its own means very little!

For full 4K UHD 'compatibility' you would be looking at supporting 2160p60 with HDCP2.2 and support for HDR (tricky until everyone finally agrees on which HDR system to go with) - nothing on the market currently covers you for that lot.

HDBT is 2160p30 with HDCP2.0 - a few folk are 'fudging' things to cater for 2160p60 and HDCP2.2 and 'promising' HDR!

The requirement for '4K' over HDMI will depend very much on your choice of Source device - assuming your AVR and TV are capable of 2160p60 with HDCP2.2 and HDR you may find your preferred streaming solution will be small enough to plug directly into the 'in room' AVR and not have to pass over the CAT cable!

Joe
 

arjandelaney

Novice Member
Joe

OK, so I think I'm getting my head around the terminology. HDMI over HDBT is point to point, i.e. one TV. HDMI over IP is using a 'matrix' to send multiple transmissions around the house to a number of TV's. Either should be possible with my set-up as I have a break in the CAT between the AVR location and the TV location both in my living room. The break is in the switch room which is roughly halfway between the two, and approx. 25m-30m each run giving a total joined CAT length of 50m-60m.

Ideally I'd place the AVR in the switch room but because my 5.1 speaker cables terminate in the living room with no real way to extend them to the switch room , the AVR has to go in the living room. This has the added advantage of being able to run a CAT6 locally between AVR and TV in case the HDBT cable break throws a spanner in the works.

There's no need to cascade sources as they'll sit on top of the AVR so can plug in individually using short HDMI cables which I already have. The baluns will send AV signal between AVR and TV over CAT5e.

With the above setup (with non-cascaded sources), will IR and two way AV pass over the 'broken' CAT in your opinion? My TV has the ability to send IR over HDMI.

I'm looking at the Wyrestorm baluns supporting 4K, HDCP2.2 as my amp, 5-Play, IR, two way AV all over single CAT5e of Max. 70m length. Are these well regarded or can you recommend others?

Thanks...Arjan
 

stevelup

Distinguished Member
I'm encouraged by Jamie's advice above that some more recent HDBaseT extender baluns will work through a switch though.

Can you recommend a good quality pair of HDMI baluns and a good switch (probs 8 port max. will do) for the job?

Just to be clear, you cannot run HDBaseT through any kind of switch. All you can do is physically join those two cables together in your switch room using a coupler.
 

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
HDMI over HDBT is point to point - you can introduce a central Matrix with embedded multiple HDBT Transmitters to allow you to share Sources plugged into the Matrix to multiple Zones/Displays.

HDMI over IP can be Point to Point, one to many or many to many depending on how you deploy it using a managed or non-managed gigabit switch.

HDBT is a lossless system - HDMI over IP is lossy!

If you are planning to share centralised Sources between multiple Zones with differing capabilities in the Zones (stereo audio vs. Surround sound) you have to plan vey carefully.

It is tricky trying to follow your full game plan - a full description of what you are trying to achieve is required.

As per previous notes without HDR you are still ultimately short of a truly 'future proofed' extender - HDBT have still to release its 'next generation' of silicon with native support for 4K UHD, HDCP2.2 and HDR.

Joe
 

stevelup

Distinguished Member
No, a switch is completely different to a patch panel. A switch takes incoming packets of data from the ethernet ports, stores it for a moment, decides what to do with it, then fires it back out of the ports it needs to go through.

A patch panel is entirely passive - just wires and sockets.

HDBaseT cannot go through any kind of switch or hub - it needs a physical point-to-point connection from the sender to the receiver.

It is tricky trying to follow your full game plan - a full description of what you are trying to achieve is required.

Took me a minute to figure out, but it's actually quite simple. His AVR and TV are in the same room, but not physically connected to each other. There are cables from both the AVR and the TV back to a central point. So all that needs doing is to stick the transmitter behind the AVR, the receiver behind the TV, then join the two cables in the server room. Not ideal but should work with any luck.
 

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
I'm hoping it is that simple - was beginning to wonder if Arjan s also thinking about distributing signals to other Displays!

Potentially it's a simple case of disconnecting the two cables at the IP switch and sticking a passive coupler between them.

Where I suspect it may be getting more complex is the requirement to also have IP over the same CAT cable to the TV!

Joe
 

arjandelaney

Novice Member
That's exactly it stevelup. Simple as that.

Is it best to literally join each of the 4 twisted pairs or use a mini patch panel? Either way I'll have to access the individual wires for RJ45 or for some sort of clip connector anyway.

I could throw in a curve ball here...I actually do have two coax cables running between AVR and TV directly that I was gonna use for extending the SKY signal from TV on to the Sky box on top of the AVR.

If the coax are a better option between TV and AVR...then I might be able to place the Sky box in the switch room...connect it to the AVR via CAT5e using HDBT over baluns.

Heck...I could even cascade the Blu-ray and other sources in the switch room with an HDMI splitter too?

Would I then loose IR etc. for all source devices with this alternative setup?

Thanks
 

stevelup

Distinguished Member
No, don't mess around trying to join wires. Put an RJ45 plug on each cable, then just use a coupler.

Where I suspect it may be getting more complex is the requirement to also have IP over the same CAT cable to the TV!

Well, the cunning plan there would be to use two pairs of HDBaseT baluns with the pair in the middle linked together back to back and also plugged into a network switch :)

That would get you ethernet at all three ends of the chain. It's starting to get messy and expensive though for the sake of running a single Cat5 cable round the skirting...!
 

arjandelaney

Novice Member
Chaps

First off I have to say that the standard of knowledge and helpfulness on this forum is outstanding. Thank you all for your valued advice.

I was originally setting out to install a stand alone 5.1 system in my living room, but now other future-proofing options are coming to the fore, such as matrix-es/matri?? using HDMI over IP. Phew!

Would it help if I attached a simple diagram of what I have, and you could propose your suggested systems based in that?

I can always stick to the stand alone 5.1 for now as long as it doesn't scupper upgrade/future-proofing at a later date.

Arjan
 

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
'Heck...I could even cascade the Blu-ray and other sources in the switch room with an HDMI splitter too?'

'Is it best to literally join each of the 4 twisted pairs or use a mini patch panel? Either way I'll have to access the individual wires for RJ45 or for some sort of clip connector anyway.'


You are underestimating how difficult it can be to run 1080p and 2160p over CAT cables - everything you describe is possible (we do it every day) but all of them, even the most simple option, can be problematic.

Take some time to define what you want to achieve and then come up with a working solution.

Joe
 

arjandelaney

Novice Member
Ok chaps...attached is a cabling diagram for my living room and switch room.

Having thought about it; what I want to do for now is have a stand-alone 5.1 system in my living room, but I don't want to scupper plans to have other TV's around the house running off the Sky box over CAT5e cables already running to each bedroom some time in the future, but I don't want to fork out for the brains of this right now, i.e. a matrix or similar.

What's the best/cheapest/easiest solution based on my existing cabling (with IR over the cables) that won't scupper future plans?

As I see it, it's either:

1. All source devices in the switch room passing signal to AVR using a pair of HDMI baluns over CAT5e, and running AV between TV and AVR using another pair of HDMI baluns over coax, or
2. All source devices on top of the AVR in the living room passing AV signal to/from TV via the switch room by joining the 2 CAT5e cables with RJ45, or running new CAT6 around the skirting if for some reason it doesn't work.

I know Option 2 above will hopefully allow IR over the CAT5e for all sources, and if this didn't work at least the source devices are in the same room as the TV for remote control.

With Option 1 though; will IR control pass over the pair of/single coax?

Thanks in advance. Arjan
 

Attachments

  • AV Cabling Diagram.pdf
    882 KB · Views: 34

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
Realistically you have two separate proposals:

The most immediate proposal will be best catered for by having your sources (inc SKY box) located in the Living Room with the AVR and use an HDMI over HDBT Extender to run the Video Output of the AVR to your Display via the 'Hub' (though as per stevelup's post you simply want to connect the Living Room to Hub and Hub to TV CAT cable's with a back to back in-line adapter).

Longer term you are more likely to move the Sources (Inc. SKY Box) to the Hub and then add in a suitable HDMI + IR over CAT, multi-zone solution - which could be HDMI over HDBT or HDMI over IP.

Joe
 

arjandelaney

Novice Member
Guys

Much appreciate the help. It's funny how many times in life you come full circle and end up where you started!

I'll order the HDMI over CAT5e baluns, RJ45 coupler and coax links now, and await delivery of the system. Mickey's Christmas Carol will sound great this year...hopefully!

Happy Christmas!
 

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
5-Play will go out to 100m the 'lite' (not an official designation) will go to 70m - on both types the quality of your termination, connector etc will be crucial.

Joe
 

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