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New to CRT's, looking for advice

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by L3gion, Aug 5, 2004.

  1. L3gion

    L3gion
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    Firstly Hi! :hiya:

    Ok here's the story, I'm getting hold of a Barco Data 708 with Iris3 this weekend. It looks like I may be doing the install myself so I'm just trying to understand a few do's and don'ts...

    Would like a screen of about 72-78" and the projector will be mounted on the ceiling ideally. My ceiling is quite high ( say 8ft ) and obviously I would prefer not to have the top of my screen at the ceiling level ( unless I buy a neck support now, in readiness for the arthritis )...

    I've D/L the Barco program for calculating distance to screen etc, however I notice the 708 already seems to have a 10 degree angle? It seems I can increase this to about 14.4 before it says thats the limit. The angle of 14.4 provides a better arangement allowing me to position the top of screen about 9" below the 708 position. If I make my own bracket I will build that angle into the setup ( an extra 4 or so degrees would be right I assume ? )

    Have I got this right? and if so, will it cause me probelms setting up the 708 because of the angle ( or is it OK as long as its 10-14 degrees? )

    Also I'm curious as to what limits I have on projection distance ie min and max for a screen that size.

    Appreciate any advice anybody might have, looking forwards to this no end :)

    Regards and thanks

    Jas
     
  2. L3gion

    L3gion
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    I guess I'm asking the wrong questions or the wrong ppl? :confused:
     
  3. Godfather

    Godfather
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    Welcome to the forums.

    James (CRT projectors.co.uk) mentioned during the installation of my 7LT that it's best to keep the projector perfectly level. The more it is tilted, the more out of focus the top and bottom of the picture will be, only the middle remaining in perfect focus. So it's better to lower the projector by a couple of inches than to angle it down. That's my understanding anyway. Good luck!
     
  4. L3gion

    L3gion
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    Thanks for the info, Im very near James/Henry so it looks like I will see if they are interested in an install :)
     
  5. Anastrophe

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    luckly you!

    ;)
     
  6. Godfather

    Godfather
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    It's worth a try but Henry and James' policy is their customers always come first. As they're usually fully booked up for at least 4 weeks ahead, Henry has made it a rule to only install projectors that were purchased from them.
     
  7. L3gion

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    Yea, I had read that...but seeing as 2 of my friends both bought projectors from Henry and recommended their services I have to ask ( which I have ).
    Im hoping to build up a good relationship with them, after all, they're the nearest people to me to provide spares and servicing etc so it works both ways I hope.

    /me crosses fingers waiting for reply from James :)
     
  8. Barry.NI

    Barry.NI
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    Jas,

    I have some limited experience installing a CRT 7LT, in circumstances such as you describe, in as much as my ceiling is vaulted, and in order to get a screen width of 1.83 metres, I had to mount the screen with the top of the blanking section 400 millimetres from the top of the ceiling. I originally experimented with increasing the angle of the projector, with mixed results, and ran out of electronic adjustments, focussing also proved to be a problem. My ceiling height is 2370 millimetres, almost 8.0' I re-installed the projector, with the top of the mounting cradle 420 mm from the ceiling, which allowed for about 50mm of blanking at the top of the screen, this put the lowest part of the projector only 1.7 metre from the floor. I do not know the dimensions of the CRT you are buying, but if it is similar to a 7LT, and with a ceiling height of 2400mm, that would put your projector at about the same height. It is not really a problem with me, as I am only about 1.73 metres tall, and the projector just happens to sit just above where the viewing position is located, I have a dedicated AV room, but it would look hideous in a living room that was used everyday. There is a possibility that you could pinch 2 degrees of tilt from the 4 degrees max., but at best it would be a compromise. You might find the picture perfecly acceptable, but would probably not be perfection, which we are all trying to achieve, though a casual observer, looking at a film on a large screen, would probably think it was marvellous. Amateur film shows, in the 50's used to be on 8mm film, on a noisy reel to reel projector, which I still have, and I used to think they were marvellous. I would say fix the bracket on long screw bolts, set up for the 12 degrees tilt. Set up adjustments on the projector, and if it does not work out , lower the back of the cradle till it is level, and recalibrate, but ifyou are a novice like me, it is an awful lot of work. There are various brackets on the market, which would solve the problem, such as hydraulic fittings, which come down from the ceiling, when you wish to view, but they are very expensive, and require access to the ceiling above, equally there is furniture, which will raise the projector to the correct viewing position, level with the bottom of the screen. I managed to make my long bolts look more acceptable, by sliding gold painted tubes over the threads, the type sold in B & Q for Wardrobe Rails. As far as the distance from the screen is concerned there is little or no leeway, as unlike a DLP there is not a wide range of focussing available. The bracket also has to be exactly perpendicular to the screen, I achieved this with a laser, but two pieces of string, forming an isoceles triangle, with the screen width becoming the base will suffice.

    Despite the advantages of a CRT, I would not consider it in a room such as I have again, knowing what I know now. A small DLP could go practically anywhere, within wide limits +/- 300mm, as there are huge margins, on focus, and there are no appreciable convergence problems, though setting up is not as simple as taking it out of the box, and sitting down to enjoy a film! Please understand I am very much an amateur, and can only pass on my experiences. I have managed to achieve a reasonable picture, but I am still calling on experts to finally set the projector up as it should be done.
     
  9. L3gion

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    Thanks for all that info Barry, I'm starting to wonder if this is going to become a problem. I've pretty much finished my bracket ( unistrut welded to 3mm steel plate )and was going to be fixing it to the ceiling anytime soon, but if I then have to drop the projector down from the ceiling a lot I feel it pretty much ruins the whole potential advantage of high ceilings :/ or else I have a picture that starts 8ft up in the air.

    Maybe I should go the coffee table route....at least I have the floor space for that....hmm....decisions.
     
  10. loonatic

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    Hey Barry,

    That makes for some interesting...if a little depressing reading.

    I am currently trying to figure out if I can fit the 7LT into my cinema/study...and having seen the Godfather's in action I really would like one.

    I too have an 8ft ceiling and was looking at a 183cm 16:9 screen...my problem is that I am 6'7" tall

    Are you using a 4:3 or 16:9 screen ? I think with a 16:9 screen you can mount the PJ slightly higher - about 15cm above the top of the screen.

    So what you are saying is, and I'm assuming 4:3 here, that with the top of the screen 5cm from the ceiling you have had to mount the PJ 42cm from the ceiling. Add the height of the PJ to that and you are only left with 1.7m headroom - ouch in my case :eek:

    According to the Barco LENS program for a 16:9 1.83m screen with a 30cm gap between the ceiling and the top of the screen that I would have to mount the PJ just 15cm from the ceiling which would leave about 2m of headroom underneath - does that make sense.

    What viewing distance to you plan to be at ?

    I plan to be about 4m from a 1.83m screen...do you think that the screen will be too high if I only have a 30cm gap.

    Sorry for all the questions :smashin:

    Cheers, Lee
     
  11. Barry.NI

    Barry.NI
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    Lee,

    You may well be right, my calculations are from the installaton manual, and refer to 4.3 set up. If you mount your 1.83 metre screen directly to the ceiling, the case is 150mm deep, and there is a 300mm blanking section in the top of the screen. I suggest that you mount the screen first, and then determine the most comfortable viewing position by adjusting the screen up and down on the down limiter switches. You could then calculate the CD of the base plate. The Barco LT is 10" deep at its deepest point. My viewing distance is 3.2 metres, but I would think that at 4.0 metres, a 30cm gap or less, would be acceptable. Does your screen come over the 50" panny? I have a 42", and the screen just covers the plasma, when it is extended.
    I have arranged for James to come up on Monday, to expertly set up my CRT , so will let you know what he says. I have bought a scaler, which I feel is essential for a CRT., even if it is to only to adjust the letterbox aspect of many DVDs, in order that they fill the screen.I have got a 16.9 screen, so I shall be relieved if I find that the PJ can be raised by 15cms, it will certainly improve the looks and the headroom.

    Cheers Barry
     
  12. loonatic

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    Hi Barry,

    They don't make their user guides user friendly at all do they :rolleyes:

    I am actually going to sell my plasma and replace it with the projector and am looking at getting a fixed frame screen. I really don't think that the plasma would get used once the projector is installed.

    I would be very interested in how you get on on Monday with James and in where you finally end up positioning your screen and projector so please let me know.

    I am also arranging a demo of the Sharp Z12k DLP projector as they are so much easier to install and more flexible...but at the end of the day it all comes down to image quality.

    Cheers, Lee
     
  13. Barry.NI

    Barry.NI
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    Lee,

    Having downloaded the Barco Lens Programme, I am having trouble opening the file, do you have any tips. I still prefer the plasma to the wide screen for everyday TV programmes, but this may change once it is all set up.

    Barry
     
  14. loonatic

    loonatic
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    Sorry for the late reply Barry :blush:

    I did not have any trouble with the LENS program.

    If you are still having trouble PM me your email address and I'll send you my copy if you like :smashin:

    I still prefer to watch normal TV programmes on a normal 28" widescreen CRT TV myself which we have in the lounge. My plasma is installed in my 'playroom'.

    That's why I am looking at getting a projector as I find the 50" plasma too large for normal viewing yet too small for films :mad:

    Cheers, Lee
     
  15. Baggy

    Baggy
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    Don't know if this helps but I've a 1209 (bought from Henry installed by James).
    I've an 8' ceiling and the lowest part of the PJ is 20" below the ceiling giving walking space underneath of 6'4".
     
  16. loonatic

    loonatic
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    Could you give me some more details Baggy...screen size and ratio plus distance from PJ to screen and from ceiling to top of screen.

    Also what is your viewing distance.

    Cheers, Lee
     
  17. Baggy

    Baggy
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    Lee,
    I use a 4:3 screen 80"x60".
    Approx 109" from screen to lens and the drop is about 8" from the ceiling to top of screen.
    Kevin
     
  18. loonatic

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    Hey Barrie,

    How did you get on with James yesturday when he visited ?

    Did you manage to get your PJ sorted out okay ?

    Was it in the wrong position ? where is it now ?

    Anyway...hope you are now pleased with it.

    Cheers, Lee
     
  19. Barry.NI

    Barry.NI
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    Lee,

    When I e-mailed James last week, to confirm his visit, I inadvertantly put the incorrect date on the e-mail, and since he had just returned from a long trip to Aberdeen, he preferred anyway to come later on in the week, so I am expecting him on Friday 20th Aug 04. It gave me chance to upgrade my Crystalio Scaler, it is barely out of the box, has never turned an electron in anger, and already needs an upgrade. Setting up the LAN programmes to update proved to be a full time job, not helped by the fact that I was trying to use a normal Cat 5 cable, rather than the crossed one, packed with the unit. :rolleyes: Why do they not reverse the cable connections inside the box, so that a normal cable can be used? The alternative thumb disc USB upgrade, is by far the simplest, but I couldn't make that work? The unit failed to recognise it, will try to format it once more, and try again. Thanfully Crystalio's dedicated Forum came to the rescue. As I am supposed to be painting the outside woodwork, the thunderstorms have proven to be a blessing in disguise.

    Will update after James's visit, will try to include a plan or photgraph, though whether they will come up to the high standard of those already posted is debateable!
     
  20. L3gion

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    Morning, just thought I should update...

    I've now finished my install, and I think it went pretty well ( it hasn't crashed through the sofa yet at least! ) :smashin:

    I stuck with a unistrut bracket arrangment with a couple of rose joints welded on the end to hang the PJ from....so that I could vary the angle without placing any twisting forces to the supporting rods, this means I can vary distance to screen by about 3-4" each way, angle from 0-4 degrees or more, adjust sideways position relative to screen ( with spacing washers either side of the rose joints ) and should be able to pivot it a little to adjust overall squareness angle to the screen.

    I used a digital angle meter to put the maximum 4 degrees on my PJ and went for a setup from there. It's worked out great, the PJ is way up on my ceiling so I have to reach over my head to touch it with fingertips which is where I wanted it, and the image is being projected a good 17" below the ceiling level for 4:3, a lot lower for 2:35 etc.

    Bit of a learning curve doing the setup, but my focus seems good all round and the convergence has come in great as well so I have no complaints at all so far ( still trying to arrange for a check in by James though )

    I'll post a few pictures of the install etc later if anyone is interested!

    Thanks for the info all....

    Jas
     
  21. loonatic

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    Hey Jas,

    Sounds great :smashin:

    Can't wait to see the pictures.

    Cheers, Lee
     
  22. L3gion

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    Ok, here's a few pictures of how my install went.....sorry I can't do thumbnails etc, putting them up with FTP is about the limit of my knowledge :)

    Here is the beast sat in my living room while i wonder how the hell I'm going to manage this install

    http://www.jreeve.nildram.co.uk/Barco/barco1.jpg

    This is a shot of my bracket mounted on the ceiling using 8 150mmxM8 coach screws. I've suspended the metal plate to give me a reference for setting up angles etc....

    http://www.jreeve.nildram.co.uk/Barco/barco2.jpg

    Next up is the digital protractor I placed on the bracket to set up my angle ( from the side and front-on to check level )....

    http://www.jreeve.nildram.co.uk/Barco/barco3.jpg

    By a huge stroke of luck a friend lent me this hydraulic jack ( used for gearbox lifting I assume) and I strapped her up, ready for a lift

    http://www.jreeve.nildram.co.uk/Barco/barco4.jpg

    And here it is all in place, mounted to the rose joints ( all angles already setup using the plate )

    http://www.jreeve.nildram.co.uk/Barco/barco5.jpg

    A shot of my first attempt at a general setup before I got a screen ( not bad for a green wall I thought )

    http://www.jreeve.nildram.co.uk/Barco/barco6.jpg

    Here's my screen install showing where the image lives in relation to the height of the room

    http://www.jreeve.nildram.co.uk/Barco/barco7.jpg

    A shot of my nice felt thing I made to blank off the top of the screen for 2:35 films ( this simple thing made a HUGE difference )

    http://www.jreeve.nildram.co.uk/Barco/barco8.jpg

    I wanted this all to be quite subtle ( as it is my living room ) so here's how it looks when I'm not using it...

    http://www.jreeve.nildram.co.uk/Barco/barco9.jpg

    Lastly a few shots I took this morning of Last Samurai. I've been having trouble getting photos that do the picture justice, but they came out a little better today ( I also have a lot of ambient light to deal with, and have not finished blacking out curtains yet )

    http://www.jreeve.nildram.co.uk/Barco/barco10.jpg
    http://www.jreeve.nildram.co.uk/Barco/barco11.jpg
    http://www.jreeve.nildram.co.uk/Barco/barco12.jpg

    Maybe some experienced CRT people can throw some feedback how this looks?

    Jas
     
  23. Barry.NI

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    Jas,
    I was very interested in seeing the pictures of the CRT installation, I especially liked the mounting plate, which is more sophisticated than mine, which consist of three threaded rods through the ceiling, allowing for little after installation adjustment.

    The main news is that James, has completed his setting up, and the results are superb. Using my 16.9 screen, we managed to raise the PJ by 100mm 4", which gives a clearance of 1.8 metres (6.0'), from the floor. James considered that this was ideal for a level platform, and at that height I was more than happy. It has been said many times before, but he really starts at the very beginning, adjusting pots well inside the cct boards, in such a way that all the on screen electronic adjustments are set at a mean of 49% and gradually works through the programming until a perfect picture is achieved, and I do not think that perfect is too much of a superlative to use.

    The only slight set back was trying to integrate the scaler into the system, which is a combination of a Panny 42" Plasma, which is covered by the 6.0' screen, and the Barco 7LT. I prefer to watch TV on the Plasma, and to save the large screen for DVD and Sky movies. When we tried to put the output of the Crystalio scaler through the RGBHV distributor box, (1 in 3 out), we were unable to get an undistorted signal. Feeding each individually achieved the usually excellent results, however with time running out, and not wishing to lose the flexibility of being able to watch either TV or DVD on both displays, we had to revert to using the output of the progressive scan module of the TAG AV192R. bypassing the scaler. Fortunately this dropped into a box that he had already set up, so there were only minor adjustments. There are certainly artefacts present, and perhaps the colours are not quite so vibrant, without the scaler in the loop, but these are quite minor, and I was willing to sacrifice these for the TAG on screen display, and the ability to feed virtually anything into the TAG, and get RGBHV out which works well with both displays. TAG equipment does really work well as an integrated set up, and like B&O does not favour adding non TAG items, probably a shrewd marketing ploy of the late and much missed TagMaclaren Audio

    There is no doubt that the scaler is a very useful part of an analogue PJ., and had we been able to switch the output I would have had no hesitation in keeping it, as it is a really good piece of kit. With the advancement in Plasmas, and the new Sky + box coming out soon, there may well be a place for it in the future.

    Thanks once again to James and CRT Projectors.

    Will post some pictures later, but the wife has half inched the digital camera, to take pictures of the new grandson in London. So will have to wait till she gets back!
     
  24. Godfather

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    Well done Jas, that looks great. Can you take a few screenshots when the room is dark?

    Barry, sorry the Crystalio didn't work with your RGBHV distribution box. But I'm glad to hear that you're happy with James setup of your 7LT. Looking forward to seeing your pics. I had a look at my convergence grids last night and was happy to find almost no drift at all after several weeks. All the convergence settings lie between 45 to 55 so that probably accounts for the stability of the machine.
     

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