new system advice for a virgin speaker type / location

Discussion in 'Home Cinema Speakers' started by mipevo6, Jan 3, 2007.

  1. mipevo6

    mipevo6
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    Folks,

    Total newbie to this and looking for some advice.

    I am looking to invest in an LCD, AV amp, and 5.1 speakers for my tv room.

    Here is what I am considering:-

    46" LCD 1080P TV (sony W or X 2000 probably)

    Sony 1200ES AV amp (looks like a decent start)

    Not sure which speakers to go for, budget can be quite flexible if I can make a big difference (250-600)

    However.

    my room is rectangular with a bay window and a fireplace, TV sits in the corner between the Bay window on the west wall and the chimney which is slightly off center on the north wall.

    The 2 sofa's are on the east (15ish) feet away from TV and south walls (10-12 feet away from TV)

    My main seating position is obviously on the south wall sofa.

    So my questions:-

    Given the setup above...

    1) Any alternate amps I should look at
    2) Reccomended speaker 5.1 package ?
    3) where the hell do i locate the speakers.


    I could mount them in each corner of the room and angle them into the center or point them at the usual seating position ?

    Would this work ?

    Where do I put the center ? (under tv ? pointing into room ? )

    Totally lost as you can imagine......

    Anywhere I can have a decent read up about it ? or any advice ?

    cheers
     
  2. abspag

    abspag
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    Quite a problem the room seems to dictate the placement, you will need to try different positions within the limits of the room/screen and the waf. Do audition different speakers the next step should be a visit s good retailer and seek advice they really are worth their salt. Trust me buying without hearing can result in dissatisfaction and cost more I know because I did do this thought a good deal on the internet would suit it did'nt . Hope this helps
     
  3. stevos

    stevos
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    You are going to buy a 46" 1080p screen and then only spend a max of £600 on speakers???

    I would seriously consider buying a slightly cheaper 720p screen and spend the difference on some decent speakers.

    At 46" the difference between 1080p and 720p isn't going to bw huge but the difference in speaker quality a few hundred pounds would make will be.
     
  4. mipevo6

    mipevo6
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    Thanks very much for the comments.

    Ah yes well that's why I am a virgin at all this :) Never really been an audiophile, computers etc are more my thing.... :)

    Given how far away the screen is everything I read says that's the ideal screen size hence going for that size (I have done the look like a wally thing of going and looking and checking my distance from the screen etc.. to match my home setup). I also can see the difference in the different screens so feel it is worth spending the money on a future proof screen.

    But given my "forced" speaker location I wasn't sure it was worth spending a huge amount on the speakers as I wouldn't reap the full benefit.

    I could easily double that budget if it made a real difference to the quality of the sound. I guess I need to hear the different systems to really understand if I can hear it ?. Not sure anywhere near me is set up to demo the various systems (Middlesex) ?.

    Can you really tell the difference between a 600 and 1200 set of speakers if sited in ugly positions ?

    Cheers
     
  5. stevos

    stevos
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    To be honest your room isn't that strange for a UK living room, in fact not that far off my sisters house.

    As for whether you can tell the difference well i have no way of knowing that, all i can say is that i would be able to.

    Ignoring placement/ surround sound fields for a second and just consider the main 2 speakers. These need to be placed either side of your tele somehow and will produce most of the sound during any film. A poor pair will not dig out much detail and will sound (at least to me) muffled.

    The other problem is that if you don't spend the money the integration between the sub (which normally appears to be the first thing manufactures budget on) and the speakers will not be perfect and you may well get either a boomy sound or a thin/bassless sound. In the case of my sister (again who has a cheapish setup) the sound does both sometimes being far to light and then suddenly sounding really boomy as it just can't quite be setup correctly.

    Demo, demo and demo some more is my advice, as you will only regret it if your new system you have spent thousands on sounds terrible (don't forget george lucas believes 50% of the film experience comes from the sound).
     
  6. dj-dulux

    dj-dulux
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    The 48” I would suggest is towards the top end of screen size for that room, if you are mainly watching DVDs then fine, but if you spend significant time watching ‘normal’ TV then a 42” may be better. I guess this will partly answer the question about a 1080p screen, you really need to decide if this is what you want or is it the marketing people again! If you are 100% going to have HD DVD or Bluray in the next 12 months then go for it, if not I wouldn’t, by a 720p one.

    I agree with stevos, you need to rebalance the funds, I know the TV is the big impressive part, but when you actually start watching movies most studies suggest that only 50% of the overall cinematic impression comes from the image, the other 50% is sound.

    As you have 2 seating areas I would be tempted to do 6.1 or 7.1, if you could post a sketch and pic I’m sure we can suggest some ideas using smallish satellites or something. Difference between 1200 and 600, yes even is ugly positions, you need to select the speakers for the application to get the best out of them.

    E mail sketches/pic if you don’t want to post it.

    Dupe…
     
  7. mipevo6

    mipevo6
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    I uploaded a quick sketch, not 100% sure of the sizes as I am still at work, but width is about 17 feet (l to r in the picture) depth is about 13 I think (top to bottom).

    It has a very high ceiling (Edwardian house)

    The weird red speaker looking things are where I have my old 4 speaker setup directly connected to my old CRT (Dolby sound came with the TV) It is not great sound I have to say...... (hence wanting to upgrade) They are currently sited at about picture frame height (8 foot ish?)

    Given 1080P TV's are available and that my xbox 360 can deliver 1080P already today it feels like the right thing to do to go that way given I am not really budget restricted too much.

    I can go 40 or 46 without an issue the main sofa is between 10-13 feet away depending where you sit so 40-46 is in the right ball park grateful for any advice on best size.

    Main watching will be general TV with additional movies (will get an up-scaling DVD) and of course gaming via the Xbox 360. Highly likely to be added to with a PS3 when they arrive :)


    Oh and btw, 99% of the time its just 2 people on the main sofa so I am happy to bias heavily for there :)
    Thoughts?

    Really appreciate the advice

    Cheers
     

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  8. dj-dulux

    dj-dulux
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    42" to 48" will be fine for the sort of things you will be doing, you always want a bigger TV than you buy in my experience, decide on a size, then get the next one up! I have a 50" at 12" distance, I like it.....

    I have added where I would put speakers; use a 6.1 system as shown, loads of satellite/sub systems out there from Tannoy, Kef etc. Match with Denon/Yamaha amp and looking and sounding good!

    Dupe….
     
  9. mhuk05

    mhuk05
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    My room is exactly the same except my TV is in the bay. Will your TV fit in the bay, allowing to put the speakers either side of the TV?

    Sonically your suggested speaker placement won't work. How big is the room? I doubt that you need 6.1 unless it's a big room?
     
  10. lazymatt

    lazymatt
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    If it helps, I've got a very similar room, with similar dimensions, and the set up dulux mentions (in terms of speaker placement) is the same as mine. It works very well.

    I have a 32" TV, and frankly, think a 40-42" would be better. For me a 46" would be too big, but that's not to say you wouldn't like it. But remember at that distance, SD material may look poor, especially on an LCD.

    I would look at the AE Aego T's as a minimum in terms of speakers:

    http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/page/category.cfm/category/85/StartRow/1/pageno/2/sort/asc

    Oh, and remember your 360 will upscale DVD's over VGA.
     
  11. mipevo6

    mipevo6
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    Thanks again folks. had to edit and delte forgot to add the picture

    so:-

    I measured the room (just got home)

    Bay window to east wall 18 feet (see picture)

    Chimney to south wall 14 feet

    Agree on the TV size, I always feel bigger is better hence leaning towards the 46" rather than 40. I have a 36" CRT which apart from being HUGE actually looks really small.

    I am loath to put the TV in the bay as it makes viewing from both sofa's difficult and the sun shines in that window all day which would make it unpleasant and difficult to watch most of the weekend.

    The 6.1 would work with a speaker on a stand either side of the TV and the rears as you indicated. I am leaning towards the Sony 1200ES amp which can do 5/6/7.1 so would be fine.

    However as I indicated earlier it might be better to set the room up just for the main sofa as 99% of the time that will be the only place anybody is sitting :)

    The amp has an auto set up which will balance the set up based on the location of the microphone during setup. so I could end up with this setup (see picture) which should be workable for the folks sitting on the main sofa but not for the other.

    I changed the picture to reflect a potential compromise setup ?

    what do you think ?

    Which still gets me back to the dilemma of which speakers to budget for / try to get a demo of ??

    TV -2100/2200 (best web price)
    Amp 330 Web price
    Cables etc.. 100-200
    speakers ??? 600-1000 ?

    Looking for suggestions of decent speakers that will look nice (sorry mrs has some say ;-) ) that will compliment the suggested amp.

    Thanks very much for the help with this, really want to get a decent watchable system with good sound.

    Cheers
     

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  12. mhuk05

    mhuk05
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    Is the sub going behind the TV?

    The rear centre isn't worth it as it's too close to your sofa. I just removed mine and it sounds better now but you sound too keen to not try it for yourself.

    The setup on the 1200 doesn't take very long but I'm sure you can do it manually just as easily.

    Speakers: have you looked at the Cantons in the speaker power buy? Are you going sub/ sat or floorstanders? Monitor Audio radius look wife-friendly ;)
     
  13. mipevo6

    mipevo6
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    I can site the sub behind the TV, or with a decent long lead over in the other corner.

    I would like the front L/R on stands and the rear speakers on the wall, not ideal but workable.

    Still interested in which speakers to have a look at.

    now looking at:-

    http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/page/moreinfo.cfm/Product_ID/2893

    or

    http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/page/moreinfo.cfm/Product_ID/2544

    Or

    http://www.mordauntshort.com/content.php?COID=24&Title=Genie

    or

    http://www.mordauntshort.com/content.php?COID=25&Title=Avant+Premiere

    Any other thoughts ?

    Cheers
     
  14. stevos

    stevos
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    Some good sugguests which unforuntely i can't comment on.

    One thing worth considering is getting some speakers with di or bi poles for rears, this will allow for a less picky sound and should help produce a better sound from both setting positions.

    I would also go for 6.1 or 7.1 and place an extra speaker at the top right of your picture and if you go 7 then move the one at the bottom right up a bit and place the 7th speaker on the bottom wall towards the right effectively mirroring the main speakers.

    From personal experience only i think this will give you a more liveable experience.
     
  15. mhuk05

    mhuk05
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    MS speakers sound good (for the money), never heard of the Q speakers.

    Bipoles would be good in your situation but I still think 6.1 let alone 7.1 will be too much for your room (and budget). Better to spend more on fewer, better quality speakers and a good sub IMO.
     
  16. mipevo6

    mipevo6
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    I am not convinced either but part of me would like to understand what it does sound like :)

    The budget is "nominal" as I am not sure what is reasonable to spend and what would be worth spending.

    If I can tell the difference between a set of speakers that cost £1,500 v a set that go for £600 I won't be afraid to invest the £ to get the results.

    The issue now is how to hear a setup somewhere local(ish) to me as I have never really done the hifi thing before so don't know who is good in the local area.

    Thanks very much for all the help so far.

    So much to learn :)

    Cheers
     
  17. stevos

    stevos
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    Before you spend any money also consider whether you plan to listen to music through the system. If you do then this will have a major effect on what you should go for.

    The only reason i would opt for 6.1 is that for multiple listening positions it produces a more optimal sound. Think of your local cinema which will have dozens of rear speakers so that each seat has rear speaker either side of them.

    Don't forget the rear sound is in stereo just like the fronts and so if you are seated with both rears on one side of you, you will only hear a mono rear effect.

    If as you say the vast majority of your listening will be from one position then not such an issue (and the improvement will be minimal) but if you plan to use both chairs it is worth considering.

    Find a dealer and spend some time demoing a few setups, once you have found a couple you like ask for a home demo. A home demo is very important because the dealership listening room will almost certainly be setup to maximise the sound and will sound very different from what you will get in your own room.
     
  18. stevos

    stevos
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    p.s. sevenoaks are pretty much every where and i have always found them to be pretty good and normally very knowledgeable especially when they see a chance for a sale.
     
  19. lazymatt

    lazymatt
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    I've got the MS Premiere Plus, and it's a very good set up for the money; Good integration, suprisingly big sound from small boxes and probably the best sub for the money.

    I found the Genies to be just a bit too metallic for my liking.

    I've not hers the Q Acoustics set.

    I have heard the AE T and am intending to upgrade from the MS to them later in the year (money allowing) They have a really nice 'hi-fi' quality to them that I've not heard in other sub/sat systems at the price.
     
  20. mipevo6

    mipevo6
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    Thanks for the advice folks.

    Really want to hear the aero T :)

    however, trying to keep it "neat" not sure where to ask this question.

    Cabling....

    I see reviews of the QED silver are always very good so will probably look into getting something of this quality as I think its easy to make anything sound bad with poor cables :).

    However.

    I am assuming I need to make the rear speaker cables the same length, but what about the front ones?

    Do these just need to be the same length as each other?
    what about the same as the back ones?
    what do you do with all that spare cable? (if above is yes?)
    Does the center have to be the same length ?

    Sorry really have no clue.

    Thanks in advance
     
  21. stevos

    stevos
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    Ideally the matching speakers should have equal length cables, so as example this would be fine

    2 x mains 2m cable
    2 x rears 5m cable
    1 x centre 1m cable

    There is no need for all cable lengths to be the same, because in most systems you do not have 5 matching speakers anyway.

    As for the fronts being equal, well as you can guess from above that is preferred but to be honest on the level of system you are looking at you really won't be able to tell the difference between say one speaker at 4m and one at 2m.

    If you had a system worth thousands then you would probably (or possibly) be able to tell the difference if your 2 mains had different length cables.

    My mains are 1xB&W htm2 (£900 new) 2x B&W 805 (£1600 new) and i can't tell any difference when it comes to slightly different lengths of cables. However saying that mine now all match because i thought 'why not'.

    As for what to do with excess cable, i just have them neatly (well sort of) wrapped behind my system.
     
  22. mipevo6

    mipevo6
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    Just a quick update.

    I am now the proud owner of:-

    Denon 1930 - (petertyson)
    Sony DA1200es - (Richer offer 299)
    AE Aego T - (petertyson)
    QED silver anniversary speaker cable - (petertyson)
    TV is waiting for pricematch (46w2000 from JL hopefully)

    I just spent the last few hours setting it up :)

    I have the DVD playing in multichannel (blue light on receiver is lit :thumbsup: )

    VERY pleased great clarity out of the box, "mrs" commented how much like being in the cinema it was !!! :) thats a huge :thumbsup:

    Bit "wooly" base so far, hopefully because:-

    The fronts and center are all just sat on the carpet.
    I haven't figured out how to change the crossover frequency on the 1200 yet while in auto config mode???
    it all needs to run in.

    Now need:-
    Speaker stands (I guess its best to use spikes?? with carpet and floorboards?)
    TV
    TV stand
    Sky HD

    Very pleased so far, thanks for all the advice

    MIPevo6
     

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