New Skills levy on foreign workers announced.

Discussion in 'Politics & The Economy' started by Cliff, Jun 10, 2015.

  1. Cliff

    Cliff
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2001
    Messages:
    6,854
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Kent Accra Rub Al Khali
    Ratings:
    +4,355
    So Cameron wants British workers to be trained and employed first. Great :).
    There will be a new levy on companies importing foreign workers.
    Sounds good but....... it doesn't apply to Europe, of course.:(

    Surely, those workers that do come from countries outside the EU, for instance Filipino nurses, are really needed? They get the proper visas anyway.

    He needs to address the elephant in the room, which is the huge numbers of Europeans coming here.
    Is this more hot air from Cameron?

    David Cameron says 'It is too easy for firms to hire from abroad' | Daily Mail Online
     
  2. logiciel

    logiciel
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2008
    Messages:
    53,162
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    UK
    Ratings:
    +5,788
    Of course it is!
     
  3. EarthRod

    EarthRod
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2008
    Messages:
    17,950
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    England
    Ratings:
    +8,072
    Yes - David Cameron has announced new crackdowns on immigration from outside the European Union. This is the umpteenth announcement from call-me-Dave about immigration.

    Yet more red herrings, misinformation and headlining.

    Meanwhile back in the Airport International Arrivals immigration counters...
     
  4. Enki

    Enki
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    3,602
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    IP address init.
    Ratings:
    +1,200
    Hopefully, we are now reaching parity in younger and older people in UK and as consequence, we are seeing Government applying the breaks.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2015
  5. tapzilla2k

    tapzilla2k
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Messages:
    7,631
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Oxford
    Ratings:
    +2,853
    I foresee a shortage of skilled nurses in the NHS looming methinks.
     
  6. pragmatic

    pragmatic
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2004
    Messages:
    12,156
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Ratings:
    +1,647
    The ideas are laudable, lets hope the levy goes directly into funding not the big pot in the middle.
    Asking why we have skill shortages year on year is an obvious question, but one that no one seemed to bother asking never mind come up with the obvious solution of training people.

    Nursing places have been cut, we have limited medic places at uni's etc, while we don't want to see a reduction in quality there must be plenty of scope to increase both of these to help if not actually fill places.

    We here that over the next 10-15 years the majority of GPs are going to retire, sounds like we need to train some around about now!
     
  7. Cliff

    Cliff
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2001
    Messages:
    6,854
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Kent Accra Rub Al Khali
    Ratings:
    +4,355
    The NHS and the government are probably the worst offenders for importing cheap labour. They use agencies so end up paying, probably 30% more on wages, airfares and accommodation in the UK. The whole package is probably equal to paying a British nurse a decent wage.

    The NHS really needs to offer its front line staff attractive packages. Not all these highly paid administrators and other consultants.
     
  8. tapzilla2k

    tapzilla2k
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Messages:
    7,631
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Oxford
    Ratings:
    +2,853
    HS2 needs paying for ;) The obvious solution is training people, but we simply do not gear schools to prepare Children for either the academic or vocational paths properly that equips them with useful skills. Too much emphasis is put on exam results which mean diddly squat to employers if our youth don't have the necessary skills businesses require. It also fuels the increasing demands on the Welfare state. Too many people get written off early and then end up in a cycle of poverty and a dearth of aspiration ensues. I've got little time for whining about scroungers (a tiny minority who should be dealt with properly) when the real reform of the Welfare state is helping people gain the skills they need to find work and not sanctioning them for small infractions to save money. We also have to recognise that some people will never be able to work unless they get a good level of support i.e. mental health patients. Restore is a local charity that does an incredible job on that front (I've seen it go from a tiny operation to something much bigger) - Restore: Working for mental health Had more help from Restore than useless private sector companies engaged in work programmes. Government should be looking at Charities like Restore for means and methods for helping people get to the point where they are able to work. Though I expect IDS might come out in a rash if you suggest using charities to help people to gain skills to get a job.


    There is a brain drain going on in the NHS via migration to Australia and co -
    Loading...
    Growing exodus of A&E doctors to Australia adds to strain on NHS | Society | The Guardian

    We can increase the numbers of medical places for Doctors and Nurses, but if we don't address the working conditions in the NHS, we are merely subsidising their training before they move overseas for a better work life balance and pay levels. Of course we could try and chase them for the costs of training but I doubt we'd make much progress with that and it'd just be a distraction from the pressures the NHS faces.

    Won't happen until we sort out how the NHS operates between GP services, A&E and Hospitals. Lansley's reforms did very little on that front. And I don't expect the Tories to do anything about it in the short term as they'll likely moan about how much GP's get paid and not address the problems, and lead the public expect GP's to become a 7 day a week service (ain't gonna happen, watch as GP's take early retirement or move overseas). I've got an excellent GP (gets things done, chases up hospital appointments etc) but for various reasons he only works 2 days a week now. Before that he had a six month sabbatical as he was worn out from the stress of the job. Look beyond the pay of GP's and see what they actually do and you'll understand why a lot of junior Doctors opt for Hospital based jobs and then look to leave the UK.
     
  9. johntheexpat

    johntheexpat
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2006
    Messages:
    9,367
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    France
    Ratings:
    +2,811
    Please excuse my lack of insight into the problem, but what % of the European Immigrants are economically inactive and could be described as scroungers and a drain on resources? The problem with the whole immigration debate is that I have never seen a definitive breakdown of origin vs economic activity vs various other parameters that can't be grabbed at by both sides to support their arguments for and against "The Problem".

    Are economically active immigrants to be condemned as well, because they take British Jobs from British Workers? Or are they to be hailed as a boost to the economy?

    Are foreign workforces good for the UK economy because they help drive down wages and increase competitiveness , or are they bad for the economy because they discourage investment in technology, push down productivity and encourage the creation of crap jobs?

    What is the object of the exercise? Are all foreign workers doing a job that could be done by a British worker to be condemned and exorcised, or is it only the low paid jobs that fall into the line of fire?

    I watch this debate from a distance and quite honestly, the mixed messages that are sent out make the reporting of it somewhat farcical and the problem difficult to comprehend.

    What I would find useful is if everyone who reads this responds with a simple one sentence summary of what they think the problem is. Then perhaps we can start to have a coherent discussion.

    This is my offering:
    The debate about European Immigrants is deliberately encouraged, but kept deliberately vague, to divert attention from the tidal wave of humanity that is arriving from North Africa.
     
  10. tapzilla2k

    tapzilla2k
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Messages:
    7,631
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Oxford
    Ratings:
    +2,853
    It's pretty much what you've said but I'll go further and say Politicians not wanting to have an honest debate about what our place is in the world amidst a growing interdependent world economy where migration is fluid.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  11. Cliff

    Cliff
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2001
    Messages:
    6,854
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Kent Accra Rub Al Khali
    Ratings:
    +4,355
    Can Britain sustain the rate of 300,000 immigrants (net) a year. As oft quoted, one new Coventry a year?
     
  12. pragmatic

    pragmatic
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2004
    Messages:
    12,156
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Ratings:
    +1,647
    What percentage of EU migrants are a net receiver of benefit's when taking into account tax credits? Higher than the UK average, that is before looking at housing benefit.

    So we have a short fall in tax before we look into the usage of services and infrastructure used by everyone.

    The old EU countries were mainly skilled migrants that were paying their way, many migrants we see now are filling low paid jobs like coffee shops etc, where the company can make bundles of cash as the government is subsiding their pay massively. The reason for the fall in productivity, and the shock poor tax returns are there in front of our noses and yet no commentator has been brave enough to make the blatantly obvious connection, probably still too worried about being called a racist or xenophobe or UKIP or something (I've missed out stupid, they can't be that stupid, right?).

    Another reason for low productivity which covers everyone in low pay and with (say 2) children is that the government tops up a minimum wage job (12k) to over 18K with tax credits and other in work benefits, a pay rise sees the rate of clawback at something like 90%, so those earning £18k in the same situation are only a few hundred pound better off.

    No wonder so many people don't want extra hours from ZHC, there is no bloody point due to perverse benefits system (that is not just for people out of work!).

    So calling migrants layabouts is unfair (although some obvious are, they aren't magical unicorns, the're human), but that is a complete perversion of the actual issue, we need a living wage and a complete destruction of tax credits. That will have a massive impact on GDP, lots of businesses relying on this staff subsidy will go to the wall, and it makes a complete mockery of the idea we've had any sort of austerity, when there are huge stimulus's like that above and the £23bn a year housing benefit bill.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  13. domtheone

    domtheone
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2004
    Messages:
    16,206
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Nottingham
    Ratings:
    +5,045
    Everybody knows the answer to this is no.

    Sadly, most of the decision makers are not/less affected by the consequences of such a disastrous policy.

    One can only hope the British people look at the bigger, long term picture when/if they can a chance to do something about it at the ballot box.
     
  14. Enki

    Enki
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    3,602
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    IP address init.
    Ratings:
    +1,200
    Skilled anything. Locum Psychiatrist £1400 per day, with accommodation and transport in and out of my Health Authority. Locum Social Worker £800 per week, way above the full time contract would offer, the posts are advertised regularly and are never filled. You cant blame people if a whole lot of blame and finger wagging is coming their way.
     
  15. Cliff

    Cliff
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2001
    Messages:
    6,854
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Kent Accra Rub Al Khali
    Ratings:
    +4,355
    OK for 300,000/year to come....
    Not everyone. A few on this forum think there is no problem with this level of immigration
     
  16. johntheexpat

    johntheexpat
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2006
    Messages:
    9,367
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    France
    Ratings:
    +2,811
    So, change the tax credit system so that indigenous workers don't lose out, but immigrants don't benefit. That can't be hard to do, lots of clever people in Government. Then, coupled with the recent EU dictat that points out that Germany (and thus the UK) can not pay benefits to newbies for months and there you go. Sorted by tweaking UK law, because that's the problem, not Europe.
     
  17. pragmatic

    pragmatic
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2004
    Messages:
    12,156
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Ratings:
    +1,647
    That would be 'discriminatory' and we've seen (in the the thread), that PM's and Presidents of the EU countries of origin of those that benefit from these in work benefits have said it is a no go.

    I can re-quote them all here if you'd like?
     
  18. Cliff

    Cliff
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2001
    Messages:
    6,854
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Kent Accra Rub Al Khali
    Ratings:
    +4,355
    If it was as simple as that it would have been done!
    But imagine the outcry, if you have one set of rules for British people and another for Romanians (and others)?
     
  19. Member 581642

    Member 581642
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2012
    Messages:
    11,106
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +2,501
    As a matter of interest why is assumed that Romanian and other similar countries representatives would vote against reform of benefit rules. What is the benefit for them
     
  20. pragmatic

    pragmatic
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2004
    Messages:
    12,156
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Ratings:
    +1,647
  21. Member 581642

    Member 581642
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2012
    Messages:
    11,106
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +2,501
    Economically why would a country want its citizens to emigrate ?

    I am not expressing an opinion and really do want to know why countries would help encourage their prime workforce to leave the country
     
  22. pragmatic

    pragmatic
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2004
    Messages:
    12,156
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Ratings:
    +1,647
    I think they either believe they'll:
    A) earn money abroad and send it home
    B) It will lower unemployment rate and benefit payments (if they have any)
    C) They care for their citizens where ever they're located and like a loving parent want the best for them
    D) They're idiots that don't realize that effectively they are emptying their country of their brightest and best.


    Could be a combination or non of those.

    Change the rules so the country of origin pays the benefit bill for their citizen where ever they are, while allowing to claim whatever benefits the country of origin allows, we'll see them change their tune pretty quickly me thinks.

    Edit:Sticking up for your countries citizens is obviously the job of government (or it should be), but preventing another country from doing something as it benefits said citizens in cash terms, and national self interest in another, is starting to show the problem with this 'Union' for those that believe in self determination and true/local democracy.

    I never voted for any of these foreign prime ministers, yet they have more say on some domestic issues than our own elected PM does ...
     
  23. Cliff

    Cliff
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2001
    Messages:
    6,854
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Kent Accra Rub Al Khali
    Ratings:
    +4,355
    It's a fact of life that many countries that don't have work, rely on their people going overseas and sending the money back home.
    The Philippines, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Nepal are all countries that without overseas remittances would be in a very sorry state. That is now becoming a phenomenon in Europe
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2015
  24. Member 581642

    Member 581642
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2012
    Messages:
    11,106
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +2,501
    I understand that but living on benefits in the Uk wouldnt leave much to send back
     
  25. pragmatic

    pragmatic
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2004
    Messages:
    12,156
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Ratings:
    +1,647
    Might be why they are happy for those to be 'discriminatory' just not the in work ones.

    Also if the country are not having to pay benefits, or look after them, or provide healthcare/schooling then they may see that as a win, especially if the individuals are low earners with large families, which the UK benefit system is geared particularly highly to support.
     
  26. Cliff

    Cliff
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2001
    Messages:
    6,854
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Kent Accra Rub Al Khali
    Ratings:
    +4,355
    We shouldn't concentrate on the benefit scroungers! The majority of Europeans do find work and this might be the minimum wage but with tax credits it is considerably more than they would get back home.

    You might say, well if that's the case, UK PLC is doing well? The problem is that we have large sections of our society that remain permanently unemployed and on benefits. Just look at some of our former mill towns. Most are families from Pakistan and the Indian subcontinent- I saw a figure of 60% unemployed in Muslim communities. It just doesn't make sense to forget a large part of our society, allow them to live on benefits and import huge numbers of Europeans to work at the same time.

    We know that almost every building site in London is staffed by foreign workers, every sandwich you buy from a supermarkets will be made by Polish/ East Europeans and the same for agricultural workers.

    It might be good for our economy (a point not lost to Gordon Brown) but it is not good for our society. It is taking a toll on our services and the way we live.
     
  27. Enki

    Enki
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    3,602
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    IP address init.
    Ratings:
    +1,200
    There is always outcries, who will be doing the outcrying over Uk tweaks, in Law to Tax credit.

    Certainly, I would have a look at Economic immigration. However a different approach if any, to Refugees and Asylum seekers.

    Indeed good for our economy, for this reason, governments need to be responsible with this benefit and invest in services. Not fair on future generations to put right our negligence.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2015
  28. Sonic67

    Sonic67
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    47,693
    Products Owned:
    12
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Home
    Ratings:
    +27,592
    Then probably better from another countries point of view that we were paying them benefits than they are.
     
  29. Member 581642

    Member 581642
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2012
    Messages:
    11,106
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +2,501
    That implies that the other country is encouraging their population to go to UK for benefits, which I doubt is the case.
     
  30. pragmatic

    pragmatic
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2004
    Messages:
    12,156
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Ratings:
    +1,647
    People moving to the UK specifically to milk out of work benefits is likely to be low level if it exist to any great extent.

    It's a straw man produced by the pro EU'ers to call people xenaphobes etc, when no one has really said that. We've got too much time to bash our own layabouts than to give credence to the ghost of a foreign one.

    There are issues like benefits sent abroad for children that may or may not exist and don't even reside in the UK, but that is a UK benefits issue, similar with stories like this http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tories-paying-benefits-deported-criminals-5818965 nothing to do with the EU, rather overzealous people wanting to give benefits to all (and/or broken laws that need fixing).
     

Share This Page

Loading...